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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:43 am 


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Location: San Jose, CA
mpatou wrote:
By the way, is there any possibility to have a PAL NES work in 60Hz (by changing an oscillator or something else)? Now that we can have true RGB, everything seems suddenly possible :-)

You need to change out the CPU, PPU and master crystal for their NTSC equivalents.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:54 pm 


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So basically, buy a NTSC Famicom/NES and a voltage step-down transformer. Bit of a shame since there should be a small (very small) handful of PAL-optimized games that could use a board like this. No surprise at all that it won't work though.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:13 pm 



Joined: 07 Jan 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Arizona, United States
Ed Oscuro wrote:
So basically, buy a NTSC Famicom/NES and a voltage step-down transformer. Bit of a shame since there should be a small (very small) handful of PAL-optimized games that could use a board like this. No surprise at all that it won't work though.
Wait... it was my understanding that this board works with both PAL or NTSC systems - the post above yours is about up-converting a PAL system to NTSC, which this board obviously doesn't do.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:15 pm 


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Location: Germany
right - the board works fine in genuine PAL units and in genuine NTSC units.

It's just not possible to have 50 and 60Hz functionality in ONE unit.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:02 pm 



Joined: 12 Oct 2013
Posts: 5
ApolloBoy wrote:
You need to change out the CPU, PPU and master crystal for their NTSC equivalents.


Mmm, interesting indeed, as I have 2 faulty PC10 (that I used to fix 2 other ones), and I have a NTSC ppu somewhere. I just have to figure out where the master crystal is to have an NTSC pal instead of buying another one. :-D


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:21 pm 


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OK, I'm onboard now. Impressive that it works on both format units.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:29 pm 



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 83
Is the rgb output going to be amplified enough to drive a monitor directly from the NESRGB? If so, suggest that you have 2 possible outputs.... A lower voltage output for computer type monitors that use .75 to 1volt pp and then the option of a higher output for REAL arcade monitors that use 2-3volt pp. because the computer type outputs (the lower voltage) make the picture very dark on real arcade monitors. This would be especially helpful if you can use your pcb on playchoice 10 in an arcade environment.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:43 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1026
Location: Toronto, Canada
markfrizb wrote:
Is the rgb output going to be amplified enough to drive a monitor directly from the NESRGB? If so, suggest that you have 2 possible outputs.... A lower voltage output for computer type monitors that use .75 to 1volt pp and then the option of a higher output for REAL arcade monitors that use 2-3volt pp. because the computer type outputs (the lower voltage) make the picture very dark on real arcade monitors. This would be especially helpful if you can use your pcb on playchoice 10 in an arcade environment.


Sorry, but I disagree with this suggestion. The NES RGB output should be good enough to drive RGB monitors (PVM/TVs). Arcade monitors were never designed to have consoles hooked up to them. No one will have an open chassis arcade monitor sitting on their table with a console hooked up to it either. Most arcade monitors also accept low voltage input.

If you really want to connect a console to your arcade monitor, and you have one of the older monitor that does not accept lower voltage input then you should use one of the video amps offered by many places, like Ultimarc.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:47 pm 


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He doesn't want to put a console into his cab. He wants to replace his Playchoice's RGB PPU with a home-PPU for the "home" color palette or to revive Playchoice boards that have been butchered for their RGB PPUs... (right?)


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:16 pm 


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leonk wrote:
If you really want to connect a console to your arcade monitor, and you have one of the older monitor that does not accept lower voltage input then you should use one of the video amps offered by many places, like Ultimarc.


viletim's own SCART to JAMMA adapter is the best one by far.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:18 pm 



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 83
Well. Both right and wrong.... I do use consoles (currently only Snes ones) in arcade cabinets (I make a "Snes to jamma" converter).

And yes, I also have playchoice 10 cabinets. Naturally, pc10 cabinets natively use arcade monitors which is why I asked about the possibility of an increased output.

The snes's I use in arcade cabinets I have to crank up the brightness to get a decent picture. I presume that a NESRGB would be similar. I WANT to use NES's in arcade cabinets but the rgb was the big hindering factor. With a rgb solution possible now, I would hope for a reasonable connection.

And why hinder an additional market? If you can make it so that it an run in different environments for a few bucks more, why not? Pc10's AND NES's should be able to use this pcb.

I use both systems (pc10 & nes) and there are a lot of people who do too, you just don't know about them.

For the jamma adapter in case you are curious....

http://youtu.be/RhLUGYhLutM

http://youtu.be/TaZ_3-lVs1w



How nice it would be if there were a VGA connector on the NESRGB pcb. Not that it would have to have a connector there.... But if it was part of the design, then those who want it can just solder one in...
I'd pay extra for that!


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:27 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 239
If you use consoles, then you ought to be using an external amp so you can use it with them as well. Just use one amp that everything feeds to through a switch. It doesn't make sense to have amps on an individual source if several different sources need it.

There's no reason you can't make your own "VGA" output. Just run the composite video through an EL4853 to get H and V sync, and connect everything to a DB-15HD connector using the VGA pinout. If you want it in 480p, you'll need an external line doubler or upscaler.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:47 pm 



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 83
I have MANY arcade cabinets and one reason I like the Snes is because its all plug and play for my setup. The less customizing the better. Yes, the NES would require cracking open, etc... I know.

I am not the typical hobbyist where I have 1 or 2 systems/consoles..... I put consoles in arcade cabinets and place them in after school centers for kids. The arcade cabinet is the only thing that can take the abuse the kids dish out. My previous post shows 1 of those cabinets.
The low video level isn't a deal killer, but it'd be nice if it were higher. So if I buy 50 of these kits, I'd like them to suit my needs if at all possible. The less hand wiring and video Amps to build the better.

I certain that viletim won't add my suggestions but it is worth considering.... I am (and others like me) the additional market he could sell to. I had NO IDEA that this NESRGB existed until a few weeks ago. I was off this forum for years and it was because someone referenced this project on the KLOV forum that I found it. How many others are like me?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:57 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 239
How can you maintain many arcade cabinets, and not be able to undertake any customization?

Any cab that will use consoles could use a video amp. As you say it would be nice if the SNES had better video levels too. So why confine the amp to the NES?

You could make a simple amp on a breadboard for a few dollars and put one in each of your cabs.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:01 pm 



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 83
rCadeGaming wrote:
How can you maintain many arcade cabinets, and not be able to undertake any customization?

Any cab that will use consoles could use a video amp. As you say it would be nice if the SNES had better video levels too. So why confine the amp to the NES?

You could make a simple amp on a breadboard for a few dollars and put one in each of your cabs.



I don't confine a video amp to cabinets because I keep all the cabinets configured the same.... I use real and different arcade boards that I swap in and out. It would be much easier to have the NES and Snes cater to the environment that they will be going into (since that environment is all standardized).

Customization is time and energy, both of I have less and less. There is little extra time when I run 3 businesses.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:24 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1026
Location: Toronto, Canada
Mark, we're not trying to discourage you. It's just that some of the replies you got are from long time arcade enthusiasts that understand best practices. In this case, using a supergun like device with video amp is the best choice. Not only will it work with all the consoles you need today but also those you haven't thought of yet. Most users of this device will not be hooking to arcade monitor. They will be using a PVM/BVM in North America or a standard VGA/SCART TV in the rest of the world. adding the amp you requested not only will add to the cost but also to the size. For pc10 it might not matter. But for the best home nes console (a top loader) every square mm counts.

In addition, I'm not sure what the consequences are of feeding 5v video signal into a TV that expects less than 1v are (if someone forgets to flip the switch) but I can't imagine them being good.

As already stated, if you have a decent arcade monitor, it should sense the low voltage input and amplify it for you. If you have an older monitor, then a cheap video amp will do the trick.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:59 am 



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 83
I appreciate all the discussion here. Thank you. ! :)

Can anyone recommend a good video amp circuit I can look at?

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:06 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1026
Location: Toronto, Canada
Ultimarc amp: http://www.ultimarc.com/vidamp.html

A SCART solution from the maker of this rgbnes: http://etim.net.au/scart2arcV20_orders/orders.htm

You can but a console to SCART cable to eBay that will work with your console (even if you're in USA)


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:22 am 



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 83
I'm looking more for a schematic of an actual circuit. Not a product.

Something that I can integrate into my current jamma adapter.


Thanks!!


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:33 am 



Joined: 20 Jun 2013
Posts: 91
Location: Denver, CO
Do the voltage regulators come with the boards, or is that something I'll need to purchase seperately? If so can I get a recommendation for the type pictured in the install? Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:52 am 



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 469
Location: Sydney, Australia
markfrizb wrote:
I'm looking more for a schematic of an actual circuit. Not a product.
Something that I can integrate into my current jamma adapter.


Did you see my SCART To JAMMA Adapter? Well, there's a baby version... The circuit is the same but everything not part of the video section was removed. It's a kit of parts, not an assembled board like my other products. The price was supposed to be AU$25 or so.. I can't remember exactly. Anyway, I didn't release it but I suppose I could in the future. It's good for all game consoles with 75 ohm RGB video.

I just put a photo and circuit diagram here.
http://etim.net.au/vidarc-k/

Glossectomy wrote:
Do the voltage regulators come with the boards, or is that something I'll need to purchase seperately? If so can I get a recommendation for the type pictured in the install? Thanks!
The voltage regulator comes with it. You only need wire and tools.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:27 pm 



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 83
I did see your scart to jamma. Very nice indeed. I don't know if you saw mine in one of my videos.
Yours seems to be a universal one where mine is more of a dedicated one ( Snes and NES only).
Mine was created to conform to my "standard" video arcade cabinet configuration so when I build it, it's ready to go. I try to stay with a plug and play concept to keep hand wiring at a minimum or not at all (Snes). The NES works on my jamma adapter all but the video (because mine can only use rgb) so it's a 2 in 1 adapter. I don't sell them commercially because they are a tool for my business, but occasionally I'll trade or sell 1 or 2. My point is that my adapter was made to conform to my business model -- which are the arcade cabinets. Anything in the Mario series is king with the kids in the after school centers I deal with and there aren't enough arcade Mario's to fill the demand which is why I made the Snes to jamma (Mario all stars).

The videos I have are old and don't show the different revisions and improvements but its basically the same.

Thank you for posting the video amp sch. I'd be interested in the kit if you offer it. Assembly is no problem.

Thanks again!


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:17 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 239
markfrizb wrote:
I'm looking more for a schematic of an actual circuit. Not a product.

Something that I can integrate into my current jamma adapter.


Try the first one here:

http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/ ... ga2arc.htm
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:04 pm 



Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 168
viletim wrote:
You can if you like. I will supply a female 8 pin mini din socket (same as XRGB-MINI) and 3.5mm audio jack socket with the board. I recommend using them as they are easy to mount and I will be supplying SCART cables to suit this configuation.

Am I correct in assuming that Famicom AV owners won't need the mini DIN? Does the NESRGB have the correct signal level / impedance to use with official Nintendo RGB cables through the AV multi out? I recall something about capacitors/resistors inside the multi AV cables.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:32 pm 


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mufunyo wrote:
viletim wrote:
You can if you like. I will supply a female 8 pin mini din socket (same as XRGB-MINI) and 3.5mm audio jack socket with the board. I recommend using them as they are easy to mount and I will be supplying SCART cables to suit this configuation.

Am I correct in assuming that Famicom AV owners won't need the mini DIN? Does the NESRGB have the correct signal level / impedance to use with official Nintendo RGB cables through the AV multi out? I recall something about capacitors/resistors inside the multi AV cables.


The kit has 75 ohm resistors and 220uF capacitors on the RGB output. The official NTSC RGB21 cables (SHVC-010) have 220uF capacitors on the RGB lines. If you were to connect the RGB output to the SNES style connector and use the SHVC-010 cable the picture might not be correct. Either remove/bypass the 220uF caps on the kit, or remove the 220uF caps in the cable. Or, you could use a different connector than the SNES style.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:11 am 


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If I know how to solder, is this a hard installation?
Do you include some kind of guide?

Can't wait to buy this!
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:20 pm 



Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 168
RGB32E wrote:
The kit has 75 ohm resistors and 220uF capacitors on the RGB output. The official NTSC RGB21 cables (SHVC-010) have 220uF capacitors on the RGB lines. If you were to connect the RGB output to the SNES style connector and use the SHVC-010 cable the picture might not be correct. Either remove/bypass the 220uF caps on the kit, or remove the 220uF caps in the cable. Or, you could use a different connector than the SNES style.

Interesting. Is there a quality advantage to having the parts at the end of the cable instead of inside the console? Also, if I wire two RGB outputs in parallel each with their own sets of 75 ohm resistors, could I make do without a video splitter (for simultaneous capture and display), or would that overload the drivers?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:38 pm 


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mufunyo wrote:
Interesting. Is there a quality advantage to having the parts at the end of the cable instead of inside the console?

I don't think there are any quality advantages to having the caps in the 21 pin connector hood. It's just where they would fit.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/ ... xa1645.pdf

Operation note no 6:
Quote:
6. Use care when connecting an external resistor to
the 75W driver output pin. A capacitance of several
dozen picofarads at each pin may start oscillation.
To prevent oscillation, design the pattern so that a
75 ohm resistor is mounted near the pin (see Figure
C).

Fig. C
75
*--WW -- * -- |C ---
* Make these leads short.

WW - resistor
|C - electrolytic capacitor


So if Sony's notes apply in general to other RGB encoders (including the ROHM one Tim uses), it's best to keep the leads short between the RGB output pins, 75 ohm resistors, and AC coupling capacitors.

Newer 220uF capacitors in more recent years (polymer or tantalum) would fit in the SNES connector hood, but have a much higher cost per unit compared to what Nintendo decided to use 20+ years ago. I'd imagine the 220uF caps in the console itself was a design/cost issue since the customer base that used RGB output at the time was <1% in the US. I'd imagine Japan would have been >1% as they sold a cable there, and monitors were sold with the RGB21 input. Europe is likely a different story due to the SCART standard!

mufunyo wrote:
Also, if I wire two RGB outputs in parallel each with their own sets of 75 ohm resistors, could I make do without a video splitter (for simultaneous capture and display), or would that overload the drivers?


I know you can do this with the THS7314/7374 ICs, but not sure about the BH7236AF IC Tim is using. Cool thing I found is that like the CXA1145, pin 11 has CSYNC output! Most other newer RGB encoders leave pin 11 unused!


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:29 pm 


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Good day to you all, I am interested in purchasing this fine product!
Am I correct to assume that it is possible to wire the RGB-enabled output to the AV connector of the AV Famicom, to use it with a normal SNES RGB cable?
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:33 pm 


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Location: Germany
that's what's just being discussed. There are multiple versions of SNES cables (NTSC with caps, European without, but with resistors instead, Cube cables are like NTSC SNES cables) and the internal RGB encoder might not be a perfect match for all of them.

But in general, of course, if you pay attention that the encoder and cable config match, then you're good to go.


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