Salamander/Life Force PCB problem with RECO autofire (Fixed!

[jepjepjep]

I have a Salamander and I'm having some trouble with it using the RECO autofire PCB. Basically, it enters button-remap mode automatically and there's no way for me to exit. I checked the voltage on the edge connector and instead of reading 5V for the button inputs, my board only registers 1.2V. I'm not sure if this is a peculiarity with all Salamander/Life Force boards, or if my pcb has a problem. Could someone that has a LifeForce/Salamander check the voltage of your button inputs (1p & 2p start mainly, but they all seem to be registering 1.2V on mine)?

[dieKatze88]

I have a Salamander and I'm having some trouble with it using the RECO autofire PCB. Basically, it enters button-remap mode automatically and there's no way for me to exit. I checked the voltage on the edge connector and instead of reading 5V for the button inputs, my board only registers 1.2V. I'm not sure if this is a peculiarity with all Salamander/Life Force boards, or if my pcb has a problem. Could someone that has a LifeForce/Salamander check the voltage of your button inputs (1p & 2p start mainly, but they all seem to be registering 1.2V on mine)?

From what I understand, Salamander/Life Force was the very first JAMMA PCB that Konami shipped. Mine has dozens of little warts when I apply it to cabs that aren't my own, and even then, it has warts with my cab. It's just a picky PCB, It's JAMMA from a Non-JAMMA Era. Being on that edge means that it has lots of little compatibility issues that aren't obvious.

I can't check my voltages right now (its half past midnight where I am right now) but I'd imagine that it might have a 5v issue. It's a pretty big board, sucks up a lot of juice. The only things I've seen more 5v hungry than Life Force are also Konami PCBs, and the Hornet and the System 573 are next level stuff in that department.

[jepjepjep]

I didn't realize Salamander was their first jamma board. I realize that these can be power-hungry boards, but I don't think that it should drop to 1.2V from 5V unless it's a design choice by Konami. I guess that's what I'm unsure about. When I received the pcb, it had a stuck input on the missile button, which I was able to fix by replacing an optocoupler, so it works perfect now without the autofire pcb. But I'm not sure if maybe something else is wrong with my board or if they're all like that.

[RGB]

Ok, so it looks like the problem you have with the Reco PCB is caused by that 1.2V on the Salamander PCB's start button lines. 1.2V is not enough, it is read as logic 0 (button pressed down) by the microcontroller on the Reco PCB.
I think I'll be able to work this out, I'll PM you later : )

I would be grateful if somebody else with the Salamander/Life Force and the Reco PCB could check the compatibility, too

[jepjepjep]

Thanks RGB!

[system11]

Does the game automatically start when you coin it up when no Reco is attached?

Faulty inputs are *extremely* common on Salamander/Nemesis boards. Usually the buttons rather than directions. I've seen ones where both bomb and both start were jammed for example. If you can get it into test mode, see what the input test is saying.

[jepjepjep]

No, it doesn't start automatically. I actually replaced three of the NEC2401 octocouplers with PC847s. Would that change cause a difference in voltage? I thought they were equivalent.

All of the inputs checked out fine in the service menu, although you can't really test the 1P start button because it skips to the next service menu. Measuring the voltage of the inputs at the edge connector, I saw 1.2V for an unpressed button, where if it was pressed down it should be near zero voltage. It was like this for the 1P start, but also the other inputs that I checked like 1P left, 1P down, etc.

[system11]

Interesting. I'd never really considered how the circuit works although I've fixed plenty. Went to read the schematics and some datasheets. That 1.2v or so is normal - it's the voltage required to drive the LED in the opto so that's what the inputs are switching, the 220ohm resistor packs are dropping the 5v rail to this suitable voltage hence why you see it on the edge connector pins.

The Reco would need to consider 1.2v not 'low' and therefore not pressed. How do we go about getting updated microcontrollers?

[RGB]

It has to be confirmed first, maybe it's not the low voltage on the start pins that's causing the incompatibilty. If it is, then the only way to update the firmware is to send the Reco PCB back to me.

[system11]

Sounds like you need a dev board with a LED matrix that outputs whether it believes buttons are pressed or not.

Actually that would look really cool.

[alamone]

I have a Life Force board and I can confirm the same problem.
Once you start up the PCB, about 3 seconds later both LEDs go on indicating it's in button remapping mode.
Thus, I would imagine that the RECO is falsely detecting that ALL buttons (Start, A, B, C, D) are being pressed down.

[ninn]

... shouldn't be against the jamma standard to do that ...

[RGB]

It really isn't. The JAMMA standard doesn't specify or say what voltage should be on the button signals... However, it's safe to assume and expect at least 2V, not logic 0 which 1.2V is in digital electronics (see logic voltage levels in TTL/CMOS). This would explain why the Salamander PCB works perfectly on some cabinets while it doesn't on the others. Add loss on the wire + old worn-out switch and connectors and you have the answer.

Thus, I would imagine that the RECO is falsely detecting that ALL buttons (Start, A, B, C, D) are being pressed down.

This isn't the case. Reco's inputs ABCDEF aren't in any way connected with the PCB game. Only Start can cause the troubles.

I talked with jepjepjep and I'm working on a fix for this game as we speak, but I hope you understand it's difficult to work on such things without the actual PCB for testing purposes.

[system11]

It really isn't. The JAMMA standard doesn't specify or say what voltage should be on the button signals... However, it's safe to assume and expect at least 2V, not logic 0 which 1.2V is in digital electronics (see logic voltage levels in TTL/CMOS). This would explain why the Salamander PCB works perfectly on some cabinets while it doesn't on the others. Add loss on the wire + old worn-on switch and connectors and you have the answer.

Nah, all cabinets should just be grounding whatever voltage is on the pin - every JAMMA cab ever made should work fine with Salamander. The thing that stops them working properly sometimes is Nemesis/Salamander are really greedy on +5, for example my Nemesis reads as 4.68v if the +5 is adjusted to show 5.06v on something like Sunset Riders. Most people don't have the juice turned up high enough for them.

[jepjepjep]

I sent my Reco pcb to RGB for an "update" and it's working perfect with Salamander! I couldn't be happier with the Reco. It's completely awesome.

[RGB]

I sent my Reco pcb to RGB for an "update" and it's working perfect with Salamander! I couldn't be happier with the Reco. It's completely awesome.

I'm glad that I could help you out Joe, and that it works now

So far no other PCB incompatibilities have cropped out, Salamander was the only one. Like I said before, if somebody wants to get the upgrade, they need to send me their Reco PCB.

Cheers,
RGB