Weak Backwards Compatibility for the 360

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:34 am

Here's the current list:

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/backwar ... eslist.htm

Some very noticeable exclusions include Project Gotham Racing 1&2, Morrowind, Doom 3, Sega's games (Shenmue 2, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Otogi 1&2, OutRun 2), and most fighters (any Capcom fighter, any SNK fighter, SC2, GGXX#R, DOAU).

The likely reason held by the current fan community for strange exclusions such as PGR and DOAU is to sell more copies of PGR3 and DOA4.

Neo Rasa · Post by **Neo Rasa** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:01 am

Actually if you want the real reason you want to look at the publishers rather than the upcoming games. The PS2 has some core hardware similarities with the PS1, the GBA/GBA SP actually has a seperate processor/etc. specifically there for playing GB and GBC games, and the Revolution will have some similar core hardware to the Gamecube to allow it to play GC games.

The 360's system architecture on the other hand has no resemblemce at all to the original XBox, and there's no space to dump in original XBox processing/video card configurations/etc. So all the backwards compatibility is done via software emulation that's possible from specific programming added into the XBox (which is why you can't use XBox 1 games AT ALL if you have a 360 with no hard drive, as it actually has to "install" some data from the games in real time and append the extra programming onto it to run).

From what Microsoft was saying, the solution to this is that INITIAL backwards compatibility will be weak, but as time goes on patches and bits of software will be downloadable off of XBox Live to expand the list. Depending on the game engines, probably along the lines of "Download ______ and now you can play all Sega games," etc.

Even with that in mind, I got an XBox not too long ago as I figure the kind of games I play, they're never going to bother to make backwards compatible.

Though there are several Sega and Capcom published games on there already so I figure most of their XBox 1 stuff will eventually be supported, along with all the other major publishers.

Edit: It says all that wrote on the web page you linked but more eloquently and in like one sentance, sorry to waste your time.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:07 am

Well, if there are two words always associated with MS, that's "Weak" and "Backwards".

Neo Rasa · Post by **Neo Rasa** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:15 am

That said, I am really impressed with the 360 itself. I hear nothing but good about how easy it is to develop for and I'm glad the multiple processor build they're going for is based around improving shadows, lighting, physics, consistent framerate, generally the stuff that REALLY makes 3D games look better instead of just upping the polygon count like what Sony's mindset with the PS3 seems to be so far.

The first XBox, I gotta say I'm VERY happy with. In the current environment it's great to see how many 2D games and not-quite-mainstream games have made it to the US on it.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:18 am

Note that they're also placing more importance on engines than individual games. Morrowind has a unique engine, so emulating it right now would be a lot of work for one release. Meanwhile, a ton of games run on Renderware, so it makes more sense to emulate that first.

Neo Rasa · Post by **Neo Rasa** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:25 am

I'm sure the engine is a factor, but since Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth runs on the (albeit a modified version of) Morrowind Engine I doubt it's the reason in this case. Here it's probably because Oblivion will be a major title in early 2006, same with why PGR3 and DoA Ultimate aren't on there.

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:26 am

What a relief...Deer Hunt 2005 is playable.

Neo Rasa · Post by **Neo Rasa** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:29 am

Accutron wrote:What a relief...Deer Hunt 2005 is playable.

Hell I bought two more copies the minute I read that.

Check my post in the selling forum, sealed Big Game Hunter 2005 can be yours for just $50 shipped and a Sapphire.

Post by **system11** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:07 am

Sadly Midnight Club 3 and Rainbow Six 3: Black Arrow are not on the list - my most played XBox games by a long, long way. I'd expect them to fix that, as they're two busy Live titles.

The n00b · Post by **The n00b** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:22 am

It really sucks that neither Rallisport Challenge 1 or 2 is on the list. Of course these two games were some of the most taxing on the xbox hardware so I'm not so surprised. I still play the hell out of rallisport challenge 2 so no way am I selling my xbox as long as that title is not on the list.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:11 am

Well, what do you expect from Microsoft?? Everyone gripes about Sony; well at least you'll be able to play basically every PS1 and PS2 title on the PS3-with a handfull of exceptions-without having to download software patches. Besides which, Microsoft has said that they might release another 360, later on, that uses Blue-Ray DVDs-pay $400 twice?! I don't think so. And you won't need an HDTV for your PS3 games to look great; HD=Progressive Scan, which Sony has had on the PS2 for several years now, and which will also be standard with the PS3.

I don't regret trading in my XBOX for a Cube; Microsoft couldn't program something in BASIC without making a bugged-up piece of crap out of it. The XBOX and the 360 can rot in gaming hell for all I care; along with the rest of Microsoft's recklessly made products.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:19 am

dave4shmups wrote:HD=Progressive Scan

No. HD=HD, progressive scan=progressive scan. 1080i is HD but not prog scan, 480p is prog scan but not HD. They're two different things.

Post by **nZero** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:11 am

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed in how the list looks as well. Seems to be a fairly inconsistent application of resources. The interview raises as many questions as it answers, as well. I'm very surprised they haven't made absolutely certain to get the top-tier racing games supported at launch.

dave4shmups wrote:Besides which, Microsoft has said that they might release another 360, later on, that uses Blue-Ray DVDs-pay $400 twice?!

Actually they're considering a revised console or add-on that allows playback of HD-DVD movies. HD-DVD isn't Blu-Ray, and the format for 360 games won't be changing. Assuming it ever actually comes to light, it's still only important if you plan on using your 360 as an HD-DVD player. ::shrug::

dave4shmups wrote:And you won't need an HDTV for your PS3 games to look great; HD=Progressive Scan, which Sony has had on the PS2 for several years now, and which will also be standard with the PS3.

The PS2 had the least consistent Progressive Scan support out of all of the consoles of this generation. I'm honestly not sure where you're going with this argument, anyway. The PS3 will benefit from HD resolution output as much as the 360, and both consoles will look fine at standard NTSC resolution when used on standard definition televisions.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:29 am

Neo Rasa wrote: Edit: It says all that wrote on the web page you linked but more eloquently and in like one sentance, sorry to waste your time.

Err, yeah, I was already aware of all that but thanks.

I mentioned the curiously missing games to suggest that those games will probably be available after the next installments of their series is released on the 360.

nZero wrote:
dave4shmups wrote:Besides which, Microsoft has said that they might release another 360, later on, that uses Blue-Ray DVDs-pay $400 twice?!
Actually they're considering a revised console or add-on that allows playback of HD-DVD movies. HD-DVD isn't Blu-Ray, and the format for 360 games won't be changing. Assuming it ever actually comes to light, it's still only important if you plan on using your 360 as an HD-DVD player. ::shrug::

Yeah, Microsoft supporting the Sony-developed (and coalition-supported) Blu-Ray fromat is equivalent to Microsoft supporting the PSP handheld. It won't do that because there's nothing more MS would like than to see the Blu-Ray standard fail so that Sony can lose billions of dollars investing in the format. And with Blu-Ray dead, the PS3 will likely falter as well. Thus, MS will only support HD-DVD and likely only if that standard starts becoming the new storage medium of choice in the near future, which is doubtful unless the Blu-Ray standard suffers unforseen production setbacks (which is possible given its complexity).

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:58 am

edited:

What an absolute slap to the face.

Anyone remember 4 years ago when Allard was interviewed in EGM before the XBox launch, pathetically pretending to be "old school"/'hardcore' by acting like a skater and asking the editors "Let me ask you this: do you use manual or auto fire in Gradius?" haha wow The posing factor of all that just shot through the roof with the release of this "compatibility" list.

Now I have to buy an XBox 1 just to play my copy of Orta and if I wanna give Splinter Cell or Outrun a spin? I knew games like Metal Slug wouldn't be included but as others have said it's not just the "niche" titles, that is a lot of stuff missing across the whole flippin' board that anyone would still wanna to play and at least two of my friends are gonna be reeeally ticked off that their Splinter Cell is no longer playable. Laziest, weakest ass "backwards compatibility" of all time.

Nice move there, Mr. Clean. That really gives so much more incentive to shell out for a HD/emu bundle.

PS3 functionality +1 extra point.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:16 am

Yeah. It should have been all or nothing. Who cares though, when you have Mario Kart DS online:

http://www.nintendowifi.com/global/index.jsp

(Sorry for the derail)

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:17 am

Specineff wrote:Yeah. It should have been all or nothing. Who cares though, when you have Mario Kart DS online:

http://www.nintendowifi.com/global/index.jsp

(Sorry for the derail)

Indeed. Derail away. MK online is beautiful derailment. And in the meantime, please read my throughly updated and re-edited outrage.

judesalmon · Post by **judesalmon** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:04 am

You don't need a HDD to run all Xbox games on 360: Halo 1 & 2 work with or without it.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:18 am

Dylan1CC wrote:Now I have to buy an XBox 1 just to play my copy of Orta and if I wanna give Splinter Cell or Outrun a spin?

Why do you own those games if you don't own an Xbox? And where do you get the idea that the 360 won't support Splinter Cell, which has been one of the defining series for MS (despite being multi-platform, the Xbox versions were always the best by far)? And your friends' copies of Splinter Cell are still perfectly playable on the system they were designed for. If they sold their Xboxes because they figured all their games would be compatible right off the bat with the 360 despite MS saying that compatibility wouldn't be anywhere near 100% at launch, your friends have nobody to blame but themselves.

People are aware that this is an initial compatibility list and that titles are going to be added constantly, right? It's just what will be compatible at launch. Updates will be added routinely, and to take a quote from that very site:

We’ll give gamers a choice—you can get the latest software updates from Xbox Live, burn a CD from xbox.com or sign up on Xbox.com for a CD that can be delivered to your home at a nominal shipping and handling fee. Once you get the CD, put it in your Xbox 360 and you’re ready to go.

Yes, full compatibility right out of the gate would have been fantastic, but the hardware for the 360 simply doesn't support easy backward compatibility like the PS2 or GBA did. It has to use emulation.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:43 am

The n00b wrote:It really sucks that neither Rallisport Challenge 1 or 2 is on the list. Of course these two games were some of the most taxing on the xbox hardware so I'm not so surprised. I still play the hell out of rallisport challenge 2 so no way am I selling my xbox as long as that title is not on the list.

I'm a huge RalliSport Challenge fan too.

SAM · Post by **SAM** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:39 pm

Wow, really don't expact such poor backward complitability.

Using some kinds of "software emulation" ?!

software emulation = Using Emulator to play XBOX 1 games

I orginally thought it would be XBOX hardware independant, due to it's PC archtacture....

Anyway, stay tune and watch for the moment.

Post by **system11** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:28 pm

SAM wrote:I orginally thought it would be XBOX hardware independant, due to it's PC archtacture....

Well there's the thing. While the Xbox is pretty much PC hardware consolidated into a console, the Xbox 360 is an entirely different creature - even the CPU architecture is completely different. Sony had better luck when they made the PS2, as the IO processor is more or less a PS1 on a chip.

As for the PS3 - it's been stated that PS2/1 compat will be done through ... emulation! Again not a surprise as the new tech is nothing whatsoever like the old. See here:

http://www.ferrago.com/story/2068

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:22 pm

TWITCHDOCTOR wrote:
The n00b wrote:It really sucks that neither Rallisport Challenge 1 or 2 is on the list. Of course these two games were some of the most taxing on the xbox hardware so I'm not so surprised. I still play the hell out of rallisport challenge 2 so no way am I selling my xbox as long as that title is not on the list.

I'm a huge RalliSport Challenge fan too.

Yeah, I haven't been racing lately, but RSC 1 & 2 are really nice.

BIG · Post by **BIG** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:02 pm

HD-DVD add on for X360?

Bad move,MS.

HD-DVD format is already dead

B-

Post by **system11** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:01 pm

I'm a little confused about the debate on Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. I think Sony and MS -really- believe that people actually play DVDs with their games consoles

When you take that out of the equation (how many here use their PS2 or Xbox vs a real player? I bet a low percentage) then it doesn't matter what drive format they use, in the slightest. It could be on superbespoke octagonal format and it really would matter to a gamer, since all they care about is the data being readable by the machine.

Sidenote - is Blu-Ray even standardised yet? Last I checked there was no such thing as a final physical drive example. There's been no real testing of that technology in anger yet, and if earlier rumours are to be believed, the media could be seriously vulnerable to damage.

Nothing to see here folks, start caring when HD DVDs are on the shelves and you have to pick a format for your new home unit.

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:18 pm

bloodflowers wrote:how many here use their PS2 or Xbox vs a real player?

Me. But I watch very few DVDs at my place. Even though I don't own a DVD player, DVD support wouldn't be a concern of mine when buying a system.

benstylus · Post by **benstylus** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:21 pm

bloodflowers wrote:I'm a little confused about the debate on Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. I think Sony and MS -really- believe that people actually play DVDs with their games consoles

I use my Xbox for DVDs. Saves me the trouble of having to make room for a standalone player.

To be honest, I think it's probably the other way around - the people that have PS2 and Xbox likely use them for DVDs as well because it's more convenient.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:26 pm

The thing is that MS and Sony each could open the door for their respective formats via a successful launch of their consoles. If people buy a lot of PS3s, then Sony and the blu-ray can start pressing and selling their movies to an installed user base. ("Buy Little Nicky HD Edition in Blu-ray. Plays on your PS3!). And then force people to buy the movies they already own in digital format. Again. And then rake in the profits from the licensing deals. Sony invented the format, therefore they will be entitled to a percentage of pretty much anything it's sold in that flavor. (Correct me if wrong).

Microsoft uses a codec of their invention in HD-DVD. Any disc sold with that means profits for them.

(Yeah, I know a big "duh" is in effect.) They just want to out gun each other in the war to secure their royalties.

Knowing Sony, they'll wing it and release buggy or faulty PS3s and players, then force people to buy a revised slimmer version that doesn't suck that much but overheats.

jp · Post by jp » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:33 pm

Man, this news sucks. I wish Microsoft didn't come in and take my Xbox away once I purchased a 360! Those bastards! I can never play the games not listed ever again!

jp · Post by jp » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:41 pm

Specineff wrote:The thing is that MS and Sony each could open the door for their respective formats via a successful launch of their consoles. If people buy a lot of PS3s, then Sony and the blu-ray can start pressing and selling their movies to an installed user base. ("Buy Little Nicky HD Edition in Blu-ray. Plays on your PS3!). And then force people to buy the movies they already own in digital format. Again. And then rake in the profits from the licensing deals. Sony invented the format, therefore they will be entitled to a percentage of pretty much anything it's sold in that flavor. (Correct me if wrong).

Microsoft uses a codec of their invention in HD-DVD. Any disc sold with that means profits for them.

(Yeah, I know a big "duh" is in effect.) They just want to out gun each other in the war to secure their royalties.

Knowing Sony, they'll wing it and release buggy or faulty PS3s and players, then force people to buy a revised slimmer version that doesn't suck that much but overheats.

Its my understanding, from an actual Database administrator for the Department of Defense, that cell processors have a tendency to die.