Shmup market research!

[n0rtygames]

As the topic says. Sometimes it's pretty daunting for someone making an indie shmup to want to put their product up there for more than $1 - which after a discussion the other day on IRC, means some people perceive the games as shovelware when in fact they've really had a bit of effort put in to them.

Sure, an indie/doujin might very well have some flaws or lack the polish of an arcade title, but for a relatively good shmup that's had effort put in to it - how much would you be willing to part with?

Keep in mind that it's considered a risk for someone releasing on a place like xblig to go above 80msp - which is wholly depressing. But keep in mind for example, for a dev to make the same and cover his costs - even paying $3 would cut the expected number of people he has to sell to to 33% of what he currently has.

Anyway, enough trying to convince you - I'd be interested in answers.

Also please don't think just in terms of my game - think in terms of some of the better indie shmups that have been released!

[nasty_wolverine]

tbh, $5 or more for a good shmup like Danmaku Unlimited or Chronoblast PC release(when is this happening btw ), $3 for a mediocre shmup, and if i judge a shmup with quality which deserves $1, I probably would not buy it.

For a physical release, you can add on another $10-$15 to the base price I would guess.

[n0rtygames]

tbh, $5 or more for a good shmup like Danmaku Unlimited or Chronoblast PC release(when is this happening btw ), $3 for a mediocre shmup, and if i judge a shmup with quality which deserves $1, I probably would not buy it.

haha, that's actually less helpful than you think! For a few reasons.

1. Personally, I don't put my own game up there with others. Danmaku unlimited looks really nicely polished but I have issues with my own stuff - but I suspect that will always be the case otherwise I should just quit

2. Problem with the good/mediocre divide is that it's hard to know if your shmup is actually "good"! One person might tell you they'd pay you £10 ($15.88 USD) while another hates the game with a frothing passion. So you don't want to put a price on it that upsets people. This has happened to me and it's quite confusing!

[nasty_wolverine]

okay let me clarify

great shmup -> approaching cave quality, for doujins approaching hellsinker, kamui, chorensha68k quality (you can tell i dont like touhou all that much)
good shmup -> well defined gameplay mechanics, solid controls, good music, consistent art.
mediocre shmup -> has issues with one or two of the above but still fun to play
$1 worth shmup -> too euroshmuppish for its own good.

you can tell if your shmup is good or not by getting tester/player feedback. And by the feedback on the chronoblast thread, it's good, really good, and with the upcoming YGW mechanics, its approaching great.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Meh, I'll splurge retail price for a physical release of something half-decent. Because I am stubborn, resistant to change and want to support the status quo (not Status Quo, mind) in a futile bid to keep people making a physical product.

Digital console releases make me feel sad. I might pay a tenner or so for a DRM free download on PC.

[n0rtygames]

Digital console releases make me feel sad.

Sadly I don't think we'll be in a position to do anything but digital console releases unless we're doing Dreamcast stuff or something like that... and you can see how much those guys have to charge to justify it

[hermit crab]

I might buy a mediocre or sometimes even straight up crap game as a physical release because of collecting/hoarding value. But if I buy a digital download I have to really, really, want the game. And if I do I'm willing to pay the 5 bucks, lol.

[Aisha]

Most physical releases of doujin games are priced between $10-30 USD, and I have no problem paying that much for them, especially if I have faith in the doujin circle and/or I enjoyed the trial version. If one of my favorite circles were to release a game at an even higher price point, I would probably not hesitate to buy it.

As for digital releases, I only buy them when they are for the PC. The Mushihimesama Futari Black Label DLC is the sole exception to date, I think. I do not trust the longevity of consoles and their online platforms, and playing shmups on a touchscreen does not interest me enough to separate me from my money. I hesitate in spending more than $10 on a digital release, especially if I am double-dipping because I already own a physical copy, and I will often wait until the game is put on sale or is included in some bundle.

[Jeneki]

I don't mind paying more for shmups than other genres. However my ceiling for Xbox Live Indie Games is a bit lower than my ceiling for PC downloads, due to certain issues with the IBLIG platform.

Can we play XBLIG offline yet?

[MathU]

I very gladly pay much more than $5 for a good game, even if it is a digital-only release. However, if one's intent is simply to create throwaway garbage that only makes money due to its extremely low price point then I am probably not interested in it to begin with.

When a game starts off at some absurdly low minimum price point like $1 that just feels like its creator is letting me know how bad it is. Why should I even waste my time with it then? There are a million other good games in the world, including excellent freeware 2D shooters. The difference is you don't have to hassle yourself with a transaction to try them, and you know their creators' motives for developing them weren't driven by profit.

[GSK]

I don't have a huge amount of first-hand knowledge about the XBLIG scene--I'm kinda surprised it's even still a thing, to be honest--but I get the impression that people don't really buy XBLIG games on impulse; they might buy a game if it's recommended by a friend or has good buzz online, but I don't think there are a whole lot of people who regularly scope the newest XBLIG games and buy things for the hell of it, so in that sense it probably wouldn't matter if your game is $1 or $5. Just getting people to go through the ordeal of navigating XBLIG to buy your game is gonna be a bigger hurdle than the price, I think (and you can mitigate a lot of that apprehension with a surprisingly small amount of positive online buzz).

Similarly, it seems like most of the people who bought Chronoblast--and again, these are all casual observations, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong--are people who spoke with you directly on boards like this one and were happy to support a dev who genuinely knew what they were doing and understood what they wanted, so I don't think a second $5 game would be a particularly hard sell to most of us.

Pricing your second game a little higher than the first one could even work in your favour, in a way. Chronoblast EX (2? I can't remember where that's at ATM) is gonna have new/redone art, right? Being able to place the games side-by-side and immediately see the improvements right there on the screen will go a long way towards justifying the higher pricetag to a lot of people, I imagine.

Having said all that, we've all been conditioned to pay ridiculous amounts of money for any ol' crap, so you probably shouldn't listen to anyone here about anything ever.

[n0rtygames]

I very gladly pay much more than $5 for a good game, even if it is a digital-only release. However, if one's intent is simply to create throwaway garbage that only makes money due to its extremely low price point then I am probably not interested in it to begin with.

When a game starts off at some absurdly low minimum price point like $1 that just feels like its creator is letting me know how bad it is. Why should I even waste my time with it then? There are a million other good games in the world, including excellent freeware 2D shooters. The difference is you don't have to hassle yourself with a transaction to try them, and you know their creators' motives for developing them weren't driven by profit.

This is actually a very good point and while I agree with you on principal - it's simply not always the case on XBLIG. You're actually not allowed to release free games and really the lowest you can go is 80msp. Then on top of that you've got to have a full trial mode, jump through all the compliancy hoops.. It's a pain

So don't think all developers are really in it "for the money" at $1 a copy! Publishing to xbox indie means we can do things that we can't on PC.

Can we play XBLIG offline yet?

No

I hesitate in spending more than $10 on a digital release, especially if I am double-dipping because I already own a physical copy, and I will often wait until the game is put on sale or is included in some bundle.

Question about this though - for a physical release, what would satisfy you? Getting discs burned can be a bit pricey. I think you'd be looking at about £500 or so for a batch. If you assume you might sell maybe 100 copies on a limited pre-order and then never do another batch again - silver backed CD-R's are an option, but they're not factory pressed like proper silver discs.

Interesting answers - so thanks for taking the time!

[Guardians Knight]

Jamestown is currently £7 on steam and i dont think that is a bad price at all for such a sweet game, I'd pay 10-15 for a game of its' quality and graphical sexyness!

[Edge]

I personally, don't have a problem paying 10€ or more for a download title (shmup or any other genre). I have bought quite a lot of XBLA games for 1200msp. Which I gladly pay, if i want to play the game.


Though I think the results you will get in this forum might not be representive. As this forum is pretty dedicated towards this genre. Unfortunatelly, the majority of gamers are not that much into the genre. So chances are, that many 'normal gamers', might not consider a shmup worth the same price as people here.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Though I think the results you will get in this forum might not be represantive. As this forum is a pretty dedicated towards this genre. Unfortunatelly, the majority of gamers are not that much into the genre. So chances are, that many 'normal gamers', might non't consider a shmup worth the same price as people here.

The problem is also that a lot of gamers nowadays are spoiled by cheap indie and phone game releases, so they look at a more game with a higher price and tend to think it's expensive. Cave's phone ports for instance are quite cheap compared to their console releases, but sometimes they're looked at as being overpriced. For a developer of such a niche genre, 5$ to support a quality game is much more worthwhile than 1$ to buy a shitty game I'll never play more than once.

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

When I see a game that is $1, I usually think that it is probably that cheap for a reason. Plus, I've had so many awful experiences with $1 games that even if I decided to try it out I would fully expect it to be a turd right off the bat. If it cost more and then I would probably take it more seriously and expect that more effort was put into the art, gameplay, design, etc.

But the majority of kids these days are used to getting all their video games on cell phones for cheap. $1 might be the most that they are willing to spend on a game. Plus shmups are probably going to be viewed as a game that was cheap to make and too short regardless of the amount of effort put into it. The only time I can think of that the majority of game reviewers thinking otherwise is if the game has flashy modern 3D graphics.

I myself would pretty much pay whatever for a game as long I had a genuine interest in it. Well, I mean wouldn't pay like expensive Neo Geo or PCB prices, but you get what I'm saying.

[ACSeraph]

Well, I think it's clear almost anyone on this forum would pay 5+ for a decent shmup, but I have my doubts about the average user of Xbox Live Indie Games. So, I'll give you my opinion with regards to non-shmup games on the service. I have bought quite a few indie games in a lot of different genre's since the service launched, but almost none of them were 80 ms points. Like a few others have said, when a game is only 80 points you get the feeling that it's just shovelware pushed out to make a quick buck. Doubly so when is says something like "Only 80 MS Points!" on the cover.

However I'm also unlikely to pay all that much for an indie game either unless I perceive it as really really good. I have no trust that I will be able to play these games in the future when MS cuts the service. If you ask me a sweet spot on the price might be something like 160 points, since it doesn't come off as shovelware but is also cheap enough that you will buy it on impulse.

Speaking of that, almost every indie game I have bought on Live was bought on impulse. Some of this will sound shallow but its the truth. You need a bitchin' unique cover to even get me to look at your game. You also need attractive screen shots that show off actual gameplay. Most of the time if the screenshots don't look great I won't even download the demo. Finally, the two biggest factors on whether I will purchase after downloading are as follows: The game must be fun/interesting from the moment I start playing. This should be no problem in a shmup. And second, if the soundtrack is awesome enough I may buy the game straight out based solely on that if the gameplay is at least decent.

That's basically my personal psychology when making non-shmup indie game purchases on Xbox Live. Hope it helps.

[n0rtygames]

Lots of really good points made, again!

Some of this will sound shallow but its the truth. You need a bitchin' unique cover to even get me to look at your game. You also need attractive screen shots that show off actual gameplay. Most of the time if the screenshots don't look great I won't even download the demo.

This isn't actually shallow at all. I dunno why you think it is. I keep making references to Shoot 1up's box art and while some people might think I'm taking the piss, I really damned well mean it when I say it has awesome box art. It's got a fat phallic laser firing between a giant mech womans breasts and she has lasers coming out of her nipples. Let's just say that again in bold...

It's got a fat phallic laser firing between a giant mech womans breasts and she has lasers coming out of her nipples



This is box art that is definitely going to get your attention! That's the point of box art. In a store, it makes you want to pick the game up. On a digital service, it's supposed to draw you one click closer to buying the game.

Finally, the two biggest factors on whether I will purchase after downloading are as follows: The game must be fun/interesting from the moment I start playing. This should be no problem in a shmup. And second, if the soundtrack is awesome enough I may buy the game straight out based solely on that if the gameplay is at least decent.

That's basically my personal psychology when making non-shmup indie game purchases on Xbox Live. Hope it helps.

Again, this is a point worth taking note of and I'm gonna make a point of this just in case some other indie developer stumbles across this forum as I did a couple of years back and starts to take a real interest in shmups. Nothing says "dull" more than an opening section full of dead air. It doesn't matter how many bullets start flooding in after that - if you have a period of dead air at the start of your game, you should really seek to eliminate it. Why?

I was at an indie game meet a few years back held in Leamington Spa. It was hosted by Blitz and we had a few names there that you might now recognise. I had a throat infection that day so couldn't do the talking, instead it was presented alongside some of ProjectorGames stuff. When my shmup came on - I noticed something interesting. I basically had dead air at the start of my level that I'd gotten used to. The atmosphere in the room was basically dull as fuck. Everyone was kinda staring at the screen but you could tell it was not particularly interesting.

Then, bullets started happening and people woke up and gave a few nods of approval. The problem with this was - my intro to the game had about 7-8 seconds of complete nothingness and if someone goes to watch your game on youtube in a gameplay video.. that's actually more than enough time for them to tune out.

Hence one of the reasons Chronoblasts opening level has always been basically retarded. This isn't necessarily the best design approach if you're looking to make the best shooter ever - in fact - I pretty much detest some of the decisions I made in making that game, but I'll go in to that in the Dev forum for those interest... Main point is: you can look at other games to see how they deal with this. Notice how the DoDonPachi games always seem to start out with horizontal scrolling tanks? Ibara throws you straight in to an industrial environment with loads of ground targets... Batrider sends cars and pedestrians everywhere that you can shoot.

That opening 6 seconds is HUGELY important. So don't waste it. Nothing says "play me!" like the words WELCOME TO VIOLENT CITY scrolling across your screen followed by healthy amounts of violence, or some fancy dressed girls mocking you in unison as you commence the negotiations...

[Tigershark]

Jamestown is currently £7 on steam and i dont think that is a bad price at all for such a sweet game, I'd pay 10-15 for a game of its' quality and graphical sexyness!

This is a good point. I've known about this game for ages but only bought it when the price came down. Having bought it I think it's great and worth much more than £7. So why didn't I buy it earlier? Tbh I'm not sure. Perhaps it is because there have been a lot of physical releases (as opposed to digital) of shmups recently and I took the view that I would rather have those and play those than buy a digital release. Perhaps when the market becomes saturated with a certain type of game (ok saturated might be taking it too far) you are more careful about what you buy.

Whatever the position I've bought four digital shmups and hardly play them: your game, sine mora, Guwange and Jamestown. All are good (well ok in the case of sine mora) but I find I play my disc games a lot more. Again, not sure why. Perhaps it's because digital stuff just seems a bit more disposable.

On topic however I would spend as much money on a digital download as a physical release provided the reviews of the game or the demo warranted it.

[hermit crab]

No CD-R's. That's just wrong. If the couple hundred for a run of 100 pressed CD's is too much of an investment it's probably best to stick to downloads only.

[n0rtygames]

No CD-R's. That's just wrong. If the couple hundred for a run of 100 pressed CD's is too much of an investment it's probably best to stick to downloads only.

You can't get runs of 100 CDs as far as I know - you can only get silver backed CD-Rs which are used by many indie music bands for what it's worth. Generally the amounts you're looking at for proper printed discs is about 500 or so as a minimum order. If you're charging like £15 a copy then you don't really need to take too many orders. It just sucks to have boxes of unsold shit lying around!

But that of course is why we have our friendly neighbourhood Rancor!

Thing is, the media isn't really worth anywhere near as much as you seem to think it is. Using UK prices, it would cost me about £450 to get a batch of 500 silver pressed CDs in CD jewel cases done, £650 for silver pressed DVDs with dvd cases and to do a batch of about 100 Silver backed CD-R's with artwork in DVD cases would cost about £100

£100 x 5 = £500 - for 500 silver CD-R's in DVD size cases with full artwork
£450 x 1 = £450 - for 500 pressed CDs in little jewel cases
£650 x 1 = £650 - for 500 pressed DVDs in DVD cases

Honestly the monetary value of the media is really about the same, just due to the manufacturing costs you're very hard pressed to find any supplier that will do a batch of under 500 pressed discs.

For me personally, buying a doujin game on a CD-R would not be a problem if it was advertised as being on a CD-R. I'd know what I was getting and then it's up to me whether or not I buy it. If it were sold under the impression of being a pressed CD and on investigation turned out to be a silver CD-R.. that's a different story!

However I can completely understand that this puts people who resell games (like Rancor) in a really shady position as they could quite easily be accused of ripping/copying the games and selling them on which is probably on par with reselling bootlegs. So as a purely ethical gesture it's best avoided. So that's the sucky part

Anyone who knows anything about inspecting CD's would be able to tell the difference anyway. So for what its worth I have no interest in ever "pulling a fast one" should I sell physical stuff one day. If I sold on CD-R's, I'd advertise as such. But for the above reasons, I'd be very wary of putting community members in a position where they could be falsely accused of selling shifty goods.

[hermit crab]

Hmm I'm sure you can do less than 500 somewhere, I know musicians that have done 200-300 copies of proper pressed CD's. Of course I don't know if they had to pay just as much as they would have for more copies though. But storage space is an expense too...

But yeah even with the 500 print selling at £15/copy you need to only sell a hundred or so before you start seeing return on the actual development work even after taxes and everything. And that's still pretty cheap, I'll gladly pay it over £5 or a download, or even a £10 CD-R. But umm I wonder how representative of the market I am. PC gaming seems so centered around Steam nowadays... Even physical copies bought at a brick & mortar store make you connect to that !"#¤# so everyone has it installed etc. They've become accustomed to it. And a lot of people don't even have an optical drive at all. You gotta do that greenlight thingamajig and get your game there.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Yeah CD-Rs have such variable quality that I'd look for a professionally pressed CD. However £15 is a bargain in my eyes and surely it's not too difficult to shift 500 copies?

[spadgy]

I was really torn between $5 and 'more'.

I tried to consider context, and plucked for $5 in this instance!

To clarify, I have paid much more for both collectible shmups, and smaller smups I've not played before or heard of. And I will again. If I had an interest in a particular indie shmup, I'd happily pay well into the $15+ territory.

But I voted here for what I'd happily pay for an indie shmup I'd heard nothing about.

It's unfair, but being frank I would think a $1 shmup is a little too cheap. $5, however, isn't too expensive for a punt based on a couple of screenshots and a description.

And for a physical package, easily loads more on top. These days I always go for LEs, even for stuff like Caladrius, and I'd do the same for a 'true' indie shmup.

So, yeah, you could likely get $20 out of me, but here I voted for $5.

Good luck! I guess I can't get out of paying $5 for your shmup now!

EDIT: I wrote all that intentionally without checking the OP's shmup out. Now I see which one it is, I'm sure I'd pay over $5!

EDIT 2: Of course, the voting here is that of the shmup devotees, rather than the mainstream consumer, who haven't been desensitised by Cave prices!