What happened to Cave?

[AntiFritz]

Not sure how profitable their cell phone games are bu maybe Cave could try to make regular console games, something like "Deathsmiles 3DS"...

They have tons of console games already. Unless you meant an original one which isn't a console port.

[trap15]

Is this turning into a "I know more than CAVE about how to do business"/"CAVE should do exactly what I want because they'll get my money" thread again?

[system11]

But everyone knows more than Cave about running a business.

[trap15]

[brentsg]

Some neighbor kids were having some sort of matsuri this weekend, with lemonade and such. At least a couple of them were dressed as schoolgirls, so Cave apparently had that right at least. The kids did seem to have their headcount under control though.

[adversity1]

I'd be interested to know how profitable SDOJ was.

Since 3/2012, CAVE has reorganized their internal departments into one single segment they call "Interactive Business", so there are no public figures on it.
Prior to this, for the last business year that the "consumer" (console) division still existed on its own from 6/2011 to 3/2012, the segment was reported as having sales of about $600K with a loss of $780k. This was, incidentally, the period that Instant Brain was released.

(Source: page 13 and 14 of this report: http://contents.xj-storage.jp/xcontents ... 00D88U.pdf)

What we know about SDOJ is that both it and the CAVE collection were reported as selling well over initial estimates in CAVE's IR reports.
I believe Famitsu figures put hard copy sales above 10k...? Don't have the numbers on me, but certainly very healthy in a market completely frigid to the 360.

Given the short dev time made obvious from interviews with Asada, and the fact that the arcade version already existed and just needed porting/arrange mode etc. I'd say the dev fees were low and they did fine.

[retrojc]

I'd be interested to know how profitable SDOJ was.

from 6/2011 to 3/2012, the segment was reported as having sales of about $600K with a loss of $780k. This was, incidentally, the period that Instant Brain was released.

Yeah, that must have hurt - though, did cave publish or develop, or both? How much it hurt would depend on their role. I would love to know sales figures from the uk releases of Cave games; they must have helped.

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=Deathsmiles

Apparently death smiles sold 250,000. Not bad. But selling more in US than Japan... Didn't expect that.

[cave hermit]

Selling more in US than Japan

Wut

[BPzeBanshee]

Doesn't VGChartz skew their results?

[Casey120]

I think they pull recent sales numbers from their ass and then correct them when official ones are released .
Have seen them correct console sales numbers that where more than 100% wrong ( 3DS )

[Astraea FGA Mk. I]

I have a lot of respect for Rising Star Games for the risk they took but unfortunately for them their shmup releases barely sold. Just have a look at their going rate on amazon.co.uk, you can get Akai Katana for £5
I happily paid full price for all of their Cave releases and UD.

If they had sold well perhaps Cave would have more confidence in the foreign market.

[Kiken]

Selling more in US than Japan

Wut

How is this even remotely surprising? <2 million Japanese XBox 360 owners versus ~45 million North American XBox 360 owners coupled with the fact that the average NA print run size for a game is much larger than what is required in Japan. It's simply a matter of sheer volume. And that's not even factoring in the massive difference in price.

[BPzeBanshee]

Rising Star's lack poor distributor choice didn't help either. I still maintain only seeing one shmup released "locally" by them in my local store, yet somehow they had no issues getting KOFXIII in well before the actual date of release or within small shops in Adelaide where the few other Aussie members have spotted them. To be fair part of this was with GAME who went bust just around the time of DDP:R's release.

As for "confidence in the foriegn-region market", there's a few ways to look at it, but I think my take on the matter has been done to death. system11 pretty much said it best.

[Bar81]

Rising Star's lack poor distributor choice didn't help either. I still maintain only seeing one shmup released "locally" by them in my local store, yet somehow they had no issues getting KOFXIII in well before the actual date of release or within small shops in Adelaide where the few other Aussie members have spotted them. To be fair part of this was with GAME who went bust just around the time of DDP:R's release.

As for "confidence in the foriegn-region market", there's a few ways to look at it, but I think my take on the matter has been done to death. system11 pretty much said it best.

Shmups are such a small niche now that getting something physically released in the west requires a small miracle and it's almost guaranteed that any western publisher will be a small company without the resources to ensure proper advertising or distribution.

[BPzeBanshee]

True, but couldn't you say the same for fighting games? And yet with those I see them left right and center despite having no promotional advertising at all whatsoever in my local game stores. If a FTG with a name I can't even remember can make it consistently here I think *someone* is getting their publishing and distributing right, that it is definitely possible to get it right - and Rising Star clearly did not.

Accessibility is everything. Physical products are definitely nigh-impossible to get worldwide (I still find it hard to believe Deathsmiles pulled it off) and on that level you're absolutely 100% right, but digital products are more accessible when handled correctly - yet every time Cave "tries" to take this approach it's half-assed and NOT handled correctly: Guwange XBLA riddled with issues, and they wonder why it got a lot of crap. GoD releases of their popular titles going only to Japan and occasionally Murica where everyone's already imported, and they wonder why no one went for it.

[Bar81]

True, but couldn't you say the same for fighting games? And yet with those I see them left right and center despite having no promotional advertising at all whatsoever in my local game stores. If a FTG with a name I can't even remember can make it consistently here I think *someone* is getting their publishing and distributing right, that it is definitely possible to get it right - and Rising Star clearly did not.

Accessibility is everything. Physical products are definitely nigh-impossible to get worldwide (I still find it hard to believe Deathsmiles pulled it off) and on that level you're absolutely 100% right, but digital products are more accessible when handled correctly - yet every time Cave "tries" to take this approach it's half-assed and NOT handled correctly: Guwange XBLA riddled with issues, and they wonder why it got a lot of crap. GoD releases of their popular titles going only to Japan and occasionally Murica where everyone's already imported, and they wonder why no one went for it.

But fighting games are a niche with a fanbase a magnitude of times larger than the shmup fanbase. All you have to do is look at the number and size of these fighting game annual conventions (for example, http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/07/b ... mpionship/); I don't see that type of activity in the shmup arena. And while I agree with you that Cave and the like aren't doing themselves any favors with their half-assed practices (region locking and then having no western publisher, buggy releases, etc.), I'm not sure that even if they executed flawlessly, enough people would care. It's a dying genre and the numbers reflect that.

[nasty_wolverine]

It's a dying genre and the numbers reflect that.

Its not. The current market conditions have made it so the you cant have a commercial setup. But if you just count the number of indie+doujin shmups released, we are getting a lot more shmups then before (although the quality for most of them isnt something to write home about, but there are gems in the deep dark mines). with IOS and android, there is a entirely new platforms to serve as gateways to more hardcore PC or arcade(ports) shmups.

Shmups will stay a niche but wont go out of style for a while. You will not be making multi-million dollars of it. But with some right business strategy you can make sustainable profits.

[Necronom]

with IOS and android, there is a entirely new platforms to serve as gateways to more hardcore PC or arcade(ports) shmups.

I would definitely second that. A lot of people are playing shmups on tablets and mobiles. Many of them haven't played a single one on their 360 or PS2.
I also think that the recently announced PlayStation Vita TV device has the potential to become the next home for shmups. It's cheap, packs enough horse power...and it looks like it's going to sell very well in Japan AND the western countries!
Cave would do wise to reconsider porting Akai Katana or Death Smiles to PS Vita. Doing so they would not only deliver a proper portable title for the hardcore but also another affordable "micro console" version for Vita TV that can also be played on your huge ass plasma with a controller:-)

[KAI]

But fighting games are a niche

Really? I see people playing SF4 everywhere. If you mean 2D fighters, that's a different thing.

[retrojc]

It's a dying genre and the numbers reflect that.

Its not. The current market conditions have made it so the you cant have a commercial setup. But if you just count the number of indie+doujin shmups released, we are getting a lot more shmups then before.

That's true for every genre though, with the ease of home dev, coding anything is a lot easier than it ever has been. I'm not saying it's easy, i do a lot of home dev (will pawn the shit out of my game when it's finished xD) but it is widespread.

I don't wish to hang myself, but I have and do find shmups to be a somewhat singular experience. I think a shmup convention could work though. I hate playing 2 player shmups, for credit reserving reasons whereas 2 player fighting games - great. I can happily sign in online and play Tekken, but if i was to sign in online/local and play DDP I hate it. Maybe it's my taste, but I've found it to be much more enjoyable to just pass the controller on death, then play 2 player shmups which fighters have in their favour. It's also worth noting that fighters have changed a lot this generation, and have had to adapt.

Cave in my opinion have almost alienated themselves from the 'masses' with way to many fucking bullets. Don't get me wrong I love some Cave games, but my friends whom enjoyed Raiden on PS1 are massively turned off by Deathsmiles and wonders when we'll see another Raiden again. My friends maybe not Caves target audience, but might be worth trying to offer a game that is easy to play/switch off with. I mean, Geometry Wars - People still love arcade shooters if done well. I also think price point was/is an issue with Cave games. For example Akai Katana launched at £30 new... really Cave games and all pal shmups should come in at a max of £20. They're seen as budget games by most.

I can't help but think cave have almost dev'd themselves into a corner.

I mumbled.

Oh, and i'm deving for Vita

[system11]

Rising Star's lack poor distributor choice didn't help either. I still maintain only seeing one shmup released "locally" by them in my local store, yet somehow they had no issues getting KOFXIII in well before the actual date of release or within small shops in Adelaide where the few other Aussie members have spotted them. To be fair part of this was with GAME who went bust just around the time of DDP:R's release.

As for "confidence in the foriegn-region market", there's a few ways to look at it, but I think my take on the matter has been done to death. system11 pretty much said it best.

Shmups are such a small niche now that getting something physically released in the west requires a small miracle and it's almost guaranteed that any western publisher will be a small company without the resources to ensure proper advertising or distribution.

And this is why you should make one print run that will work in all regions, instead of trying to sell redistribution rights to third parties in smaller consumer areas - this has been a constant theme from Japanese software companies, they just don't get it.

[hermit crab]

Ahh the great bullet hells vs Raiden debate.

Just the other day I was reading someone say how Raiden "isn't quite a bullet hell but still pretty hard" or whatever. LMAO. Yeah not that many bullets but the games are brutal. Everything happens so fast. Most bullet hells are way easier, because the bullets move so slow and the enemies intentionally leave you spaces between them to maneuver through. But sure bullet hells look difficult in still shots, especially for someone who's point of reference is Raiden. I think that's the problem really, people haven't actually played the games, they just believe in the illusion of difficulty... And never even try. Oh well maybe they'll come around eventually.

A lot of people are turned off by, or just not drawn to, the "anime" aesthetics too. Not saying Cave should change their art for anyone, as it's part of what made them successful, but that's how it is.

[retrojc]

i'm not disputing Raiden is hard, it's a cruel mistress.

I just think games like mushi when seen 'over the shoulder' or 'on the couch' looks spectacularly difficult.

[Necronom]

Don't get me wrong I love some Cave games, but my friends whom enjoyed Raiden on PS1 are massively turned off by Deathsmiles and wonders when we'll see another Raiden again.

Have your friends ever tried Under Defeat? Or did you tell them about the upcoming Luftrausers? I said it before and I say it again...a noob friendly shmup released on Vita - while being compatible with the upcoming Vita TV device - could open the doors for others to follow...

[Skykid]

Apparently death smiles sold 250,000. Not bad. But selling more in US than Japan... Didn't expect that.

DS global sales were inaccurate due to a pricing error in the UK from a large online retailer. I've already explained this before, can't be bothered to do it again. Suffice to say they sold a shedload of copies for 0.15p.

[Bar81]

Shmups are such a small niche now that getting something physically released in the west requires a small miracle and it's almost guaranteed that any western publisher will be a small company without the resources to ensure proper advertising or distribution.

And this is why you should make one print run that will work in all regions, instead of trying to sell redistribution rights to third parties in smaller consumer areas - this has been a constant theme from Japanese software companies, they just don't get it.

That would be lovely, but as you said, the JP developers are too dumb to help themselves.

[retrojc]

Don't get me wrong I love some Cave games, but my friends whom enjoyed Raiden on PS1 are massively turned off by Deathsmiles and wonders when we'll see another Raiden again.

Have your friends ever tried Under Defeat? Or did you tell them about the upcoming Luftrausers? I said it before and I say it again...a noob friendly shmup released on Vita - while being compatible with the upcoming Vita TV device - could open the doors for others to follow...

Oh, I have given them other examples. Psyvariar went down well. Though, these days if a game doesn't have an achievement or trophy in, what's the point, right? (not my words).

Apparently death smiles sold 250,000. Not bad. But selling more in US than Japan... Didn't expect that.

DS global sales were inaccurate due to a pricing error in the UK from a large online retailer. I've already explained this before, can't be bothered to do it again. Suffice to say they sold a shedload of copies for 0.15p.

Sorry, I should have said. I don't take VGChartz all that seriously. Though that isn't clear in my post. Though, I find it hard to believe that DS sold at .15p.

[Cagar]

But fighting games are a niche

Really? I see people playing SF4 everywhere. If you mean 2D fighters, that's a different thing.

But SF4 is 2D fighter?

[Jonst]

It's 2.5D

[KAI]

I mean graphically. SF4, TTT2, MK9, DOA5, VF5 are more popular than GGAC, BBCS, P4A or AH3