What happened to Cave?

[cave hermit]

So since Saidaioujou came out, I've been hearing that this is like cave's swan song, and that it's the last one cave is going to make, and things along those lines. However, I also keep reading things to the contrary, saying that nothing is wrong with cave right now. So what's the deal? Did cave go bankrupt or something? Money problems? Is the company going to close down? Did their development branches shut down or something? Can somebody just summarize the situation?

[quash]

This is entirely speculation, but my take on it is that Cave is probably done with making arcade games. As of right now, they're literally the only arcade developer that hasn't adopted network based DRM of some sort, and as we all know, Cave PCBs aren't cheap.

They're probably looking at the cost of releasing games in the arcade and realizing it isn't worth it anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if they started releasing games straight to XBLA/PSN.

I'd love to be proven wrong and see more SH3 games, but that probably isn't going to happen.

[KAI]

Can somebody just summarize the situation?

Asada left the company
No more arcade games
Donpachin for iOS

[shmuppyLove]

Saidaioujou 2: Electric Boogaloo



But seriously, limited release Dreamcast shmups pls

[Pretas]

This is entirely speculation, but my take on it is that Cave is probably done with making arcade games. As of right now, they're literally the only arcade developer that hasn't adopted network based DRM of some sort, and as we all know, Cave PCBs aren't cheap.

Untrue. Akai Katana Shin got a NESiCA release, and it seems likely that SDOJ will follow, since they never made a PCB revision that fixed the score overflow bug.

With the Japanese arcade market dwindling and the current console generation winding down, Cave is in a difficult period of transition right now, and I doubt they have a clear idea of what direction the company is going to take from here on out. Probably the best possible scenario is that they continue releasing new games and ports of their usual high quality to NESiCA, with downloadable consumer versions following. The worst would be if they abandoned both arcades and consoles, and completely resigned themselves to disposable smartphone fare. Right now, no one can say what will happen.

[quash]

Untrue. Akai Katana Shin got a NESiCA release

In Japan, NESiCA is a funny way of spelling BlazBlue.

[hermit crab]

Some time ago there was a video of a weird Cave arcade touch screen kiddy game posted on the forum. So I guess they are venturing into other genres.

[IseeThings]

well they did that Prize/Medal Mahjong touch screen game on the same board as the shooters.

Might be those kiddie things run on it too.

but yeah, wouldn't be surprised to see them go the way of novelty / redemption for arcade stuff, that's where all the money is, games with 30 seconds of content and promise of a prize rather than having any actual real value. They're also basically immune to piracy too, because without the extras + proper themeing they're worthless.

I'd expect to see plenty of DoDonPachislots in the future.

[Cagar]

Ketsui 2 will be announced within 3 months. Will be released on PS3, Xbox360, PC and NESiCA.
You heard it here first

[Udderdude]

And then you woke up.

[KAI]

More racing games please.

[AntiFritz]

More racing games please.

Cave should make a game inspired by kingdom grandprix.

[Eaglet]

Oh btw, making games on the SH-3 is dirt cheap now.
Guess they're making at least 8x profit on all boards sold at full price.

[shmuppyLove]

Oh btw, making games on the SH-3 is dirt cheap now.
Guess they're making at least 8x profit on all boards sold at full price.

photoshop skills, i don't haz them

[trap15]

Yeah, all the parts and getting the boards manufactured... probably $100, $200 at most. Rollin' in the dough with each board sold.

[rancor]

probably $100, $200 at most. Rollin' in the dough with each board sold.

matsuri events completely sold out of every item...
one of the most loyal fan bases in all of gaming...
financial support from Microsoft...
dont pay their employees shit, and they work massive overtime...

... And CAVE can't stay in the black? WTF is going on down there??

[Udderdude]

Scrooge McDuck sized vaults full of fuckpillows don't fill themselves, yaknow.

[Danny]

probably $100, $200 at most. Rollin' in the dough with each board sold.

matsuri events completely sold out of every item...
one of the most loyal fan bases in all of gaming...
financial support from Microsoft...
dont pay their employees shit, and they work massive overtime...

... And CAVE can't stay in the black? WTF is going on down there??

To many higher management paying themselves a "decent" wage I reckon...

[IseeThings]

Yeah, all the parts and getting the boards manufactured... probably $100, $200 at most. Rollin' in the dough with each board sold.

still way overstaffed for the nature of the games they make tho, really it's the type of thing you'd expect maybe a 2-3 man team to be pumping out maybe outsourcing some work on the art/music at key points in development.

and while they might be able to sell all the pcbs at that price that's because they're typically producing them in low numbers keeping the price artificially high.

like I said, compare it to the redemption game model where you have 30 seconds worth of gameplay at most and said gameplay that doesn't change at all so you can churn a newly themed version out every month, and suckers will always pump money into the machines because they're addicted to them... that's your license to print money.

the social games with all the buy-in extras are the same and just as dirty as the gambling games, so again no surprise that's one of the things that keeps coming up.

mahjong games of course fall into this too, that is of course one reason so many arcade manufacturers pumped those out too, they subsidised other developments by being vastly more popular and cheaper to make.

but actual games? with multi-year development times, genuine depth and balance? unless you've got a tiny team of only the actual essential developers employed as and when needed then you're throwing away so much money it isn't funny and unless you're an AAA studio and have guaranteed paid for reviews and sales to every moron on the planet then you're never going to make it back.

if you're lucky maybe the social games etc. will bring in enough money that the occasional real game can be funded. That said, I can see the 'social game' bubble popping sometime soon tho, people are getting wise to a lot of these free to play type scams, especially as more and more developers are pushing them harder and people are starting to actually see how badly they're getting ripped off.

Meanwhile if Cave do put out more games, but use NESiCA then they're simply going to limit their exposure to Japan only generic cabinets and very quickly be forgotten about outside of Japan. As a result sales of any ports are likely to be lower (people won't have heard / played of the new IP unless they've been to Japan) and the non-Japan fanbase will decline, and somebody else will take their place as the king of shmups.

Even if they do use the SH3 board more they've got the problem of cabinets, especially outside of Japan where the majority of places with new arcade games have modern cabinets rather than generic low-resolution vertical Jamma cabs they can put an old SH3 board in, and the places with old Jamma cabs are looking more at dirt cheap replacement games to swap in not a premium price Cave shooter.

The future for the stuff you like seems bleak IMHO.

[Jonathan Ingram]

They dropped the glorious Touge Max games and switched entirely to the bottom of the barrel shmup shovelware. The mass market has shunned them ever since. The end.

[moh]

Oh btw, making games on the SH-3 is dirt cheap now.
Guess they're making at least 8x profit on all boards sold at full price.

photoshop skills, i don't haz them

now thats some funny shit

[dark]

What if they did a sequel to steep slope sliders......... on their SH3 hardware!

[casualcoder]

Oh btw, making games on the SH-3 is dirt cheap now.
Guess they're making at least 8x profit on all boards sold at full price.

I doubt you are including the cost of labour, office space and other overhead. People tend to greatly underestimate the cost of running a small business. With that said I am consistently perplexed how this company isn't at a financial high-point considering their multiple console releases in the last 5 years, a growing base (especially in the west), franchise merchandise sales, a bunch of licensed game releases including a certifiable hit in the original Deathsmiles... Unless Asada is spending it all on hookers and blow, I can't imagine how much mismanagement had to be taking place for Cave to be staring down at their shoes and getting emo haircuts.

There is the odd transition that always occurs between console generations but just about every small development studio has put on the brakes until the next generation takes off. Perhaps we are reading into this a bit too much. Perhaps.

[Skykid]

probably $100, $200 at most. Rollin' in the dough with each board sold.

matsuri events completely sold out of every item...
one of the most loyal fan bases in all of gaming...
financial support from Microsoft...
dont pay their employees shit, and they work massive overtime...

... And CAVE can't stay in the black? WTF is going on down there??

The Yen.

[BulletMagnet]

I seem to recall hearing something to the effect that a semi-recent legal ruling related to online gambling had a big negative effect on some company Cave had partnered with for its own online gaming ventures, but how direct and/or drastic an influence it had here I couldn't tell you.

[spadgy]

Oh btw, making games on the SH-3 is dirt cheap now.
Guess they're making at least 8x profit on all boards sold at full price.

I doubt you are including the cost of labour, office space and other overhead. People tend to greatly underestimate the cost of running a small business.

When I saw Cave's COO Mikio Watanabe speak at Games Developers Conference about two years ago, he said porting an existing Cave game to iOS costs $100,000 - $150,000. Special reworked games like the iOS Espgaluda II? $250,000.

Based on what I've seen in my time working as a games journalist for an industry magazine especially for games developers, I have no reason to doubt those costs.

And that's just how much porting costs. Starting a game from scratch? I doubt SH3 is really the money printer some suggest.

[Bar81]

Oh btw, making games on the SH-3 is dirt cheap now.
Guess they're making at least 8x profit on all boards sold at full price.

I doubt you are including the cost of labour, office space and other overhead. People tend to greatly underestimate the cost of running a small business.

When I saw Cave's COO Mikio Watanabe speak at Games Developers Conference about two years ago, he said porting an existing Cave game to iOS costs $100,000 - $150,000. Special reworked games like the iOS Espgaluda II? $250,000.

Based on what I've seen in my time working as a games journalist for an industry magazine especially for games developers, I have no reason to doubt those costs.

And that's just how much porting costs. Starting a game from scratch? I doubt SH3 is really the money printer some suggest.

Wow, that's a crazy amount for a phone port. Guess it's not a one week job

[AntiFritz]

Oh btw, making games on the SH-3 is dirt cheap now.
Guess they're making at least 8x profit on all boards sold at full price.

I doubt you are including the cost of labour, office space and other overhead. People tend to greatly underestimate the cost of running a small business.

When I saw Cave's COO Mikio Watanabe speak at Games Developers Conference about two years ago, he said porting an existing Cave game to iOS costs $100,000 - $150,000. Special reworked games like the iOS Espgaluda II? $250,000.

Based on what I've seen in my time working as a games journalist for an industry magazine especially for games developers, I have no reason to doubt those costs.

And that's just how much porting costs. Starting a game from scratch? I doubt SH3 is really the money printer some suggest.

Reminds me of when I see people complain about stretch goals on kickstarters being too much. Like an extra 100 000 to port to x system etc. What people don't realise is that they're asking for that much because it simply costs that much, not because they're out to gouge you or something.

[spadgy]

Exactly. The costs are vast. Wages for highly specialised (and thus costly) staff, facility bills and rent, middleware (development software) license fees and so on, insurance, service provider costs (lawyers, accountants, PRs, cleaners etc), hardware, marketing/advertiosing campaigns, data and analytics stuff, possible fees and charges to platform holders, freelancers... the list goes on!

You can, of course, make a game for almost nothing today, especially as an individual or small team. But running a games making business? It can get silly expensive.

I think Cave are probably struggling to scale their shmup business. They produce quality product through a traditional studio make-up that has long worked for them, but are now (or were!) focused on a genre/market/audience that brings in the levels of cash now more suitable for funding a three-person indie outfit.

[trap15]

a three-person indie outfit.

Yagawa, Tomoyuki:Kotani, Namiki

PLEASE