Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga are part of a Trilogy

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:05 pm

As for PS2/RSG/Ika - not able to handle it? Ok, whatever dude - tell that to Gradius V (and many other PS2 titles that shift a lot of graphics at full speed) - never heard something so ridiculous in my life. All new shmups and ports should definitely appear on the DC instead - yeah, that makes loads of sense...

Amen.

I think the real reason Treasure won't port RS to Ps2 is the simple fact that so many of their fans are so ridiculously irrational. After all, PS2 isn't a Sega Console.

Also, ever play Gunbird 2 for DC? the PS2 version (on Gunbird: Special Edition) requires LOADING TIME before each boss fight, and for a second or so, the screen freezes. this was absent in the DC version.

That the only example? PS2 handled Dragon Blaze just fine. Same h/w as Gunbird 2 and at least equally graphically complex.

Let's quit bitching (and petitioning

) for Dreamcast ports, and focus on getting Mars Matrix and Border Down ported to PS2 instead.

Post by **Ghegs** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:08 pm

Turrican wrote:"Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga are part of a Trilogy"

Wait -- I thought the trilogy was RSG - Judgement Silversword - Next one in development.

I know Ikaruga was labeled as project RSG2, but still...

Judgement Silversword has absolutely nothing to do with RSG. JSS was originally a doujin-game that won a programming contest and the prize was a commercial release of the refined version of the game. Dicing Knight, another sought-after Wonderswan release, won the contest the following year.

Neon wrote:
bloodflowers wrote: As for PS2/RSG/Ika - not able to handle it? Ok, whatever dude - tell that to Gradius V (and many other PS2 titles that shift a lot of graphics at full speed) - never heard something so ridiculous in my life. All new shmups and ports should definitely appear on the DC instead - yeah, that makes loads of sense...
Amen.

I think the real reason Treasure won't port RS to Ps2 is the simple fact that so many of their fans are so ridiculously irrational. After all, PS2 isn't a Sega Console.

Well, I don't think it's that. I sure hope it's not that. But amen indeed, PS2 could handle Ikaruga or any DC game without problems. As I understand it, PS2 is just a bitch to port to, but if you program something for it from the ground up the results are, well, Gradius V and Gran Turismo 4 and the rest of the gorgeous (2D as well) games.

Sly Cherry Chunks · Post by **Sly Cherry Chunks** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:45 pm

^I'm guessing that Treasure develop for the more "obscure" consoles simply to dispel any possible notion that they produce games for commercial gain, or anything else other than "art's sake".

greng · Post by **greng** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:03 pm

A Plast from the past

dementia · Post by **dementia** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:10 pm

Sly Cherry Chunks wrote:^I'm guessing that Treasure develop for the more "obscure" consoles simply to dispel any possible notion that they produce games for commercial gain, or anything else other than "art's sake".

That's false. They're making a game for Xbox 360. Even though it'll be an obscure console to the Japanese, Treasure has more western fans anyway.

I remember the reason Ika was never ported to PS2 was a problem with 2D bitmaps or something.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:15 am

Ok, there is no concrete evidence that says Treasure is making a Xbox 360 game.

Ikaruga came out for DC because it was a NAOMI title and I'm sure when they looked at the charts between spending money to port it to PS2 for extra sales, or releasing it on the Dreamcast with 99% of the work done, it was clear what to choose. Remember this was back in 2001 and Treasure has a hardcore following.

benstylus · Post by **benstylus** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:17 am

Valgar wrote:Ok, there is no concrete evidence that says Treasure is making a Xbox 360 game.

According to Dengeki Online they are.

About 4/5ths of the way down the page...

トレジャー『オリジナルシューティングゲーム（仮称）』

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:10 am

Yes I've seen that, is that concrete evidence?

benstylus · Post by **benstylus** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:25 am

Dengeki is pretty reliable, so I'd say yes.

I guess only official word from Treasure or the game actually getting released counts for you?

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:37 am

Yes, because no one knows what Treasure is ever doing.

Neo Rasa · Post by **Neo Rasa** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:39 pm

bloodflowers wrote:Disc Read Errors: I'm starting to wonder - I see people complaining about this frequently, on the other hand, I've had several PS2s which saw very heavy use, and none ever exhibited this problem until mechanical failure. I have many friends in the UK with abused PS2s, and have never heard them say anything about it (discounting a modded one - modding them is known to upset the laser).

Is this problem something that was seen far more in the US? Is it possible they were using different parts for ones sold in that region? From what I've seen so far, the slimlines are a pile of shit compared to the old ones.

Many Japanese PS2s had this problem as well, but the PS2 in general was cobbled together from a bunch of parts that were rejected from Sony's DVD player lines. US PS2s at one point had like a fifty percent defective rate (literally, maybe it'll work, maybe it won't

). This didn't happen right away in the US because it wasn't until about a year after that a lot of blue backed disks (CD-ROMS, as opposed to DVDs) were being released in the US to save money on manufacturing costs. The laser has to read the CD-ROM a little slower than it's built to, it basically makes it work harder over a shorter period of time, which can cause the eventually "DISK READ ERROR" wherein it won't be able to play CD-ROM games anymore, and eventually no games at all.

The slim PS2 fixes this issue (and loads games faster in general), but at the same time the cooling in it is very inefficient, which can cause it to overheat if played for extended periods of time. Never had this problem, though even after a couple of hours, the damn thing is hot to the touch!

Overall though if you're going to be really careful with your stuff I'd say the slim one is a better buy, as long as you never want to use the hard drive or certain other accessories.

I think I'll be sticking with the 360 and the Revolution for this upcoming generation. Lots of exclusive Atlus and SNK stuff are all that could make me want a PS3 at this point.

Zweihander · Post by **Zweihander** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:03 am

Neo Rasa wrote:I think I'll be sticking with the 360 and the Revolution for this upcoming generation. Lots of exclusive Atlus and SNK stuff are all that could make me want a PS3 at this point.

I'll probably get a Revolution in the US, import a PS3 (since we all know Cave games aren't welcome in the US, due to their 2-D graphics and "impossible" challenge), and, if the third RSG game doesn't make it to the US... import a fucking 360 and RSG3, paying out the ass for both, on Play-Asia.com...

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:48 am

bloodflowers wrote: As for PS2/RSG/Ika - not able to handle it? Ok, whatever dude - tell that to Gradius V

Just for the record, on all of the PS2 consoles that I've used my copy of Gradius V on, the PS2 loads more than a Dreamcast running Ikaruga. Starting a new game has the PS2 loading the first stage, while Ikaruga had none. Gradius V loads a lot too (for a shmup) when you want to practice stages out of order (practice stage 5 first, then go practice stage 1 afterwards). Ikaruga had none. Gradius V has 1-2 seconds of loading the next stage after you finished the current stage. Ikaruga has zero. Graphics are comparable between the two games, except the PS2 uses motion blur, but graphics are otherwise somewhat close, with Gradius V being slightly better. I was actually silently cursing the PS2 when it said "now loading"
at the bottom-right of the screen after I selected my weapon array for the first time.

Since those are two completely different games, I'll use a game that was available to both systems. Shikigami no Shiro II on the DC hiccups on the framerate a little bit at times, but happens a lot more when there's two players at once. However, I haven't seen any real loading issues other than the game booting up. The PC version, I guess depending on your system specs, will do the same thing, but my hardware was more than capable of handling it, and you can play the game music outside of the program because it's encoded in mp3. And the PC version natively has VGA output. So PC version wins. I couldn't test Castle Shikigami II because... well, it's blue/purple and the PS2s available to me at the time couldn't read it. But hey, they can read DVDs!

drsmoo · Post by **drsmoo** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:07 pm

the majority of dreamcast games ported to ps2 look better on dreamcast. Dreamcast has more texture memory, and sharper, more vibrant looking games with better textures

Zweihander · Post by **Zweihander** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:29 pm

Okay, looking back to when I got to play Radiant Silvergun on my mentor's Saturn... MAYBE the PS2 could handle the game, but it would have LOADS of slowdown, due to the large ammount of 2D graphics. (the bane of PS2) See, out of the three current systems (PS2, Xbox, and NGC), it's a known fact that the PS2 is THE hardest to program for. However, because the PS2 is such a mainstream console, most developers put their games on the PS2 so they will sell. This is unfortunate, when you take a look at the technical specs-- PS2 is the WORST of the three systems, and that's a fact. Xbox has the best graphics, but that's because the thing is a 3-story-tall BEAST. NGC is a tad behind Xbox, but actually has CRISPER graphics, if you take a look at them. Meanwhile, all the PS2 has to offer is a bigger library. That's all.

For Iky to run on a PS2, (keeping music in synch with the stages, WHICH IS VITAL for Ikaruga's artistry to come across), it would have to incorporate some form of frame-skipping, to avoid slowdown ENTIRELY. (aside from Boss explosions, since by that point, the stage is over.) It would be possible, but it would probably look and sound like crap. (you think the NGC port was bad? YOU DON'T WANT to see a PS2 port, then...)

It's a known fact that Rez looked better on the PS2; the graphics were EXACTLY the same, but the game got the 60FPS treatment. HOWEVER, the Dreamcast version had notably better sound quality. Compare Shiki 2 on DC and PS2... DC's sound quality completely BURIES the PS2 version's.

I think Iky was ported to the NGC (rather than PS2) for very good, solid reasons... Simply, Treasure didn't want their masterpiece to become an embarassingly bad port. :/

That, and the game would be put on a blue/purple-backed CD (due to its short length, and to greedily cut production costs), which many owners' PS2s wouldn't be able to register.

I guarantee that-- if reviewed on any major websites-- the review would say something like, "if your PS2 can still play CD-ROMs, and if you're not worried about low-quality sound or framerate, then definitely give Ikaruga a look."

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:03 am

You know, Guilty Gear XX has less loading on the PS2 than the Arcade, and it completely retains all animation and graphics. I GUESS THE NAOMI SUCKS COMPARED TO PS2.

btw, the bosses in RSG are all 3D. To think that the PS2 could not handle a saturn game is ludicrous. The only thing anyone would ever have to worry about is how much effort they want to put into porting said game.

Neo Rasa · Post by **Neo Rasa** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:11 am

Zweihander wrote:
Neo Rasa wrote:I think I'll be sticking with the 360 and the Revolution for this upcoming generation. Lots of exclusive Atlus and SNK stuff are all that could make me want a PS3 at this point.
I'll probably get a Revolution in the US, import a PS3 (since we all know Cave games aren't welcome in the US, due to their 2-D graphics and "impossible" challenge), and, if the third RSG game doesn't make it to the US... import a fucking 360 and RSG3, paying out the ass for both, on Play-Asia.com...

Given how much more it would cost, I might just modify a US 360 instead when that becomes viable. I really hate playing games online so that won't be a factor (hell I only got an XBox 1 about two months ago when enough single player and 2D games were out on it to warrant it).

Zweihander · Post by **Zweihander** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:24 am

Valgar wrote:btw, the bosses in RSG are all 3D. To think that the PS2 could not handle a saturn game is ludicrous. The only thing anyone would ever have to worry about is how much effort they want to put into porting said game.

I know the bosses are 3-D; but I'm merely being realistic: the 2-D graphics of RSG (all non-boss enemies) and bullets, etc.. would take their toll on the PS2's weaknesses. Besides, let's be real here: RSG getting ported to PS2? Out of the question, at least in the US... and probably Ikaruga, as well. Western gaming has degraded into a mess of graphics-over-glory, and I doubt we'll ever live in an age of plentiful shmups again. Ever.

Sad as it is, if Iky were to be ported to PS2, it would have at the same time as the NGC port, and with how shitty that turned out, (aside from the extra modes), a PS2 version would be even worse-- unless done right, ported by different people who actually give a damn about the outcome.

Hey, there's always daydreaming...

Neo Rasa · Post by **Neo Rasa** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:28 am

Still it depends on if they're PORTING porting it or if they're doing what the Capcom/SNK ports did for a while where you had basic 3D models with the spritework plastered onto them to create the illusion of a direct port of the 2D graphics, but one which could still run smoothly on primarily 3D oriented hardware.

Even on hardware as weak (IMO) as the PS2, I'd say a perfect port of such a game is possible, just I don't think you'd ever get the right combination of budget, dedicated, and skilled enough team to do it.

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:30 am

Valgar wrote:You know, Guilty Gear XX has less loading on the PS2 than the Arcade, and it completely retains all animation and graphics. I GUESS THE NAOMI SUCKS COMPARED TO PS2.

No native VGA output on the PS2 though. PC version of GGXX#R wins.

Post by **system11** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:59 am

This thread is now officially stupid, and makes the baby Jesus cry.

We've seen people wheeling out all the fake technical facts again, totally ignoring anything they don't wish to hear. Someone even played the PS2 texture memory card, always hilarious.

As for Gradius V having motion blur - um .. Whatever. Were you playing it on a Plasma or LCD by any chance? Zero blur on my old Trinitron.

If it was felt that it would be financially viable, there's no reason whatsoever that Treasure couldn't port RSG (or Ikaruga). As it stands, it's very likely not financially viable. As for the 2D/sprites thing, even more hilarious - the PS1 could probably run that game.

Madness.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:36 am

Zweihander wrote: I know the bosses are 3-D; but I'm merely being realistic: the 2-D graphics of RSG (all non-boss enemies) and bullets, etc.. would take their toll on the PS2's weaknesses.

You mean like the 2-D graphics of Dai-ou-jou and bullets, etc... or the other 10 games listed in this thread? The PS2's "weaknesses" of 2D games or whatever is just part of the fake technical facts that bloodf mentioned.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:31 am

Zweihander wrote:
landshark wrote:I just wish they'd port to the PS2 so the rest of us could play them. Enough with the damned "rarity" of RSG. Let people enjoy it.
The PS2 more than likely wouldn't be able to support RSG OR Iky.

First off, PS2 has massive slowdown issues that were never refined or polished... Thus, with the stage's music timed in synch with different parts of a level (as with Iky), you'd end up having the music COMPLETELY off-synch; unless they could make the game use Frame Skip, to keep everything synched up, but it's a known fact the PS2 doesn't like Frame Skipping, (DC did it when it was told to, as with Bangaioh), and even moreso, PS2 doesn't like 2D graphics much. (known fact the PS2 does VERY poorly with 2D games; Hell, look at CAVE's games, it makes you wonder why they didn't just go w/ Dreamcast....)

...in the end, Treasure made a smart decision to avoid the PS2 or Sony in general for their masterpiece trilogy plan. All I can say to people who want RSG-trilogy games on PS2 or PS3.... move on, Sony is NOT the console to own for Treasure games. It's a blessing they developed Gradius V, and an amazement they involved themselves with the crap that is Silhpeed: The Lost Planet.

PS2 has massive slowdown issues?! Trying playing an XBOX without a Samsung drive. The PS3 will be much more powerful then the 360. The slowdown in the PS2 Cave ports was probably either programmed or left in there so that players could have a snowball's chance of actually beating one of Cave's shmups.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:38 am

Valgar wrote:
Zweihander wrote: I know the bosses are 3-D; but I'm merely being realistic: the 2-D graphics of RSG (all non-boss enemies) and bullets, etc.. would take their toll on the PS2's weaknesses.
You mean like the 2-D graphics of Dai-ou-jou and bullets, etc... or the other 10 games listed in this thread? The PS2's "weaknesses" of 2D games or whatever is just part of the fake technical facts that bloodf mentioned.

Exactly, and I'm really getting sick of reading fake technical facts about Sony gaming hardware on this site, just because people feel like ripping on Sony.

At any rate, Treasure is indeed an awesome developer, but people really need to quit putting the company on such a high pedistal; not ever game they've developed, or will develop, has been a masterpiece. This is probably at least part of the reason for so much dissapointment on this site over Gunstar Super Heroes.

Dartagnan1083 · Post by **Dartagnan1083** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:05 am

I got an Idea. . .
Since Iuchi reportadly wanted to port RSG only if it could be done to his standard/specifecation, it must be that it was either impossible to do on the PS1, and too much of a pain in the ass to do on PS2.

The legendary programer Steve Wolta stated in a 'Manci Games' Interview that Saturn development was like using a shoddy incomplete Errector™ set.
But it was still apparently capable of a few unique abilities.

Given this knowledge, RSG on the TitanV and Saturn must have already been a pain in the ass. The PS1 might have been incapable (since the port was never made it), but the PS2 might as well be an untertaking too great for Iuchi or Treasure to consider.

As for Iky. . .
Well I can't explain that.
G-Rev did a fine job working on Gradius V, so one would assume that a port would have happened.

Moogs · Post by **Moogs** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:54 pm

Dartagnan1083 wrote:I got an Idea. . .
Since Iuchi reportadly wanted to port RSG only if it could be done to his standard/specifecation, it must be that it was either impossible to do on the PS1, and too much of a pain in the ass to do on PS2.

The legendary programer Steve Wolta stated in a 'Manci Games' Interview that Saturn development was like using a shoddy incomplete Errector™ set.
But it was still apparently capable of a few unique abilities.

Given this knowledge, RSG on the TitanV and Saturn must have already been a pain in the ass. The PS1 might have been incapable (since the port was never made it), but the PS2 might as well be an untertaking too great for Iuchi or Treasure to consider.

As for Iky. . .
Well I can't explain that.
G-Rev did a fine job working on Gradius V, so one would assume that a port would have happened.

Eh? You mean Border Down?

Accutron · Post by **Accutron** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:55 pm

Moogs wrote:
Dartagnan1083 wrote:As for Iky. . .
Well I can't explain that.
G-Rev did a fine job working on Gradius V, so one would assume that a port would have happened.
Eh? You mean Border Down?

G.Rev was involved with Gradius V.

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:47 pm

bloodflowers wrote: As for Gradius V having motion blur - um .. Whatever. Were you playing it on a Plasma or LCD by any chance? Zero blur on my old Trinitron.
Madness.

I was referring to the motion blur effects used to introduce the first boss and the battleship in stage 2. That was about it.

WarpZone · Post by **WarpZone** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:31 pm

Zweihander wrote:For Iky to run on a PS2, (keeping music in synch with the stages, WHICH IS VITAL for Ikaruga's artistry to come across), it would have to incorporate some form of frame-skipping, to avoid slowdown ENTIRELY.

I don't understand this. Gradius V's music is synched to the stages, and I don't see what compromises were made to do so.

Moogs · Post by **Moogs** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:58 pm

Accutron wrote:
Moogs wrote:
Dartagnan1083 wrote:As for Iky. . .
Well I can't explain that.
G-Rev did a fine job working on Gradius V, so one would assume that a port would have happened.
Eh? You mean Border Down?
G.Rev was involved with Gradius V.

No shit? Well damn..