Are you in debt?

[Domino]

Honestly, I have no idea how so many service members fuck up their finances as badly as they do. I just finished my first year of service, so I'm not eligible for most allowances yet, nor do I get a within-grade raise for another year, and I'm still in better financial shape than a lot of people I know who make way more more than me.

They fuck up really, really bad. I work for a car finance company and I just moved out of the High Risk Collections/Repos department. In that department I was repoing cars where their accounts three/four month past due. A good bunch of them that I was repoing were people who were in the military at the time they signed for their car loan.

Man a good much of these military people (mostly in their 20s-30s) are just dumb. Most of the time they don't read the contract when signing it. Also most of these cars are signed for someone else (like spouse or relative), so when calling them telling them that their car is about to get repo they are always clueless or just stupid beyond belief.

Best examples are:

*An account was under this Navy member who only address is his parents house in GA. There's no way to reach him since he is in the Navy in middle of some place in the world on a ship. A "cousin" was driving the unit in AZ. Well I was able to find a good address for this "cousin" in AZ and thus unit got repoed. This "cousin" can't do anything about it since it isn't his car. So pretty much when the Navy guy who name is on the loan comes back from overseas he will have a nasty surprise waiting for him (like a court judgement saying his wages are going to be garnish).

*This Army guy was getting pissed off that we keep calling his commander officer thru using an outside "Skip" Vendor. This guy keep saying that reason he is past due since he is in Iraq and can't remember everything. Now my coworker who took the call (an Iraqi War Vet himself) pretty much shot his reasoning down quick. The Army guy was cursing saying to stop calling his commander officer, my coworker pretty much told him to pay or surrender the unit. Two days later the unit got repoed from his GF address in the States.

In figures, to the tune of about 30k thanks to my previous relationship. In real terms, they accept what I can afford to pay or I go bankrupt, as I have no assets to be seized. Not something I'm proud of, but life doesn't always pan out the way you expect. Shit, ten years ago my game collection alone was worth 20k+.

At this point most likely your credit is shot. If your creditors didn't do a judgement on your just yet filing for CH 7 BK might be your best choice at this point.

[SuperGrafx]

No debt.
I'm a huge saver and enjoy investing my money.

Never really was one much for material things. Don't get me wrong, I have a car and some nice things, but I don't have this constant need to buy useless crap and foolish things. I'd rather spend my money on experiences and travel.

[Davey]

Ha, I hate reading my old posts. At least these ones weren't too cringe-worthy.

I'm presently wresting with whether or not to attend graduate school.
I'm accepted and enrolled at Drexel in Philadelphia, PA, and classes start in 3 weeks.
Payment will be entirely through federal loans, and at some point I would be using credit cards for some living expenses and school materials.
After two years I would be approaching $50,000+ in debt.

Am I getting cold feet, or do I see the writing on the wall and realize that such a burden will not be worth the potential earnings increase the degree may offer?
I could just as well get a job with the state government as a file clerk or something menial.
All my life I've been led to follow the path of higher education, but it really seems like a big business scam.

Simple matter of considering whether your degree will significantly open doord or boost income. If it will make you a better low wage earner then you are good to have cold feet. If it increases income and creates opportunity then do it.

Years ago, the rule of thumb that I was given was that grad school usually wasn't worth it if you're doing it purely for financial reasons. It can still be worth it from a personal enrichment standpoint, like if it opens up doors more interesting work or something.

I do think there are too many people in college, though, given how expensive it is and how many people have unused degrees these days. Decades ago, it was common sense that getting a college degree, any degree, was the path to success. That's not necessarily true anymore, but parents have been hammering it into their kids' heads for generations, so it's just become accepted as truth over time, and not enough people question whether it's really the best thing for them. Of course, it doesn't help that a lot of employers have the same mindset, so they require degrees when one probably isn't really necessary to do the job.

[Moniker]

It can still be worth it from a personal enrichment standpoint, like if it opens up doors more interesting work or something.

I'm probably not qualified to weigh in here, since my folks funded my master's program, but in terms of personal enrichment - beyond what I ended up/will end up doing with it, it was totally worth it. I'm a wiser (note: not wise) person for it. This was a masters in English. It really opened my eyes to new horizons, and I consider it worth it a thousand times over, regardless of career opps. It sucks that many/most can't make such an idealist decision, but there it is.

[brentsg]

I think advanced education is great, don't get me wrong. I just think it needs a tangible payoff if you're going to bury yourself in debt over it.

If you want to improve your inner glow or whatever, that's great as long as you aren't moving your financial starting line way in the red. I have seen people spend enough to buy a house on degrees that basically give only personal fulfillment. That can be a pretty impractical thing for most.

I was able to pay for an engineering MS by teaching and doing paid research, so when I graduated I was debt free. I only worked in that field for 10 months, but it has opened doors and is something I am proud of.

[Skykid]

I think advanced education is great, don't get me wrong. I just think it needs a tangible payoff if you're going to bury yourself in debt over it.

This definitely. It's true tangible payoffs are becoming a less and less common occurrence for graduating youth, sadly.

Personally I think the entire education system needs a radical rethink.

[CMoon]

I think advanced education is great, don't get me wrong. I just think it needs a tangible payoff if you're going to bury yourself in debt over it.

For me, getting a quick masters (2 years) helped me save a bachelors that wasn't delivering job wise. When I was a college kid I was studying something I was passionate about, but didn't really lead to a job. I hope kids are smarter than that now.

[BulletMagnet]

Of course, it doesn't help that a lot of employers have the same mindset, so they require degrees when one probably isn't really necessary to do the job.

The main problem (as I see it) is that so few places are willing to train anybody anymore (or invest pretty much anything in their workforce, but I'll stop there), and not only want people with a particular (and usually very limited) degree/certification but also several years of experience in a (also very specific) similar, if not identical, position; they basically just want you to walk in on day one, sit down, and not command a moment more of their thoughts or energy from that day forward ('til they outsource your position, of course).

The only places that regularly train anymore pay minimum wage or close to it, and offer little to no real advancement opportunities (getting to the point that you might be in line for a promotion? They'll cut your hours whilst simultaneously increasing your workload, possibly until you can't afford to work there anymore)...my own job being a case in point. Moreover, I found out that, at least around here, the people who do train aren't compensated for the extra work: I've trained four people (three of which have since left) since gaining a full-time position (which, I might add, came with benefits but also an hourly wage cut of nearly a third from my previous part-time rate...and all previous raises were voided), and I haven't seen an extra penny for any of it.

[dcharlie]

The main problem (as I see it) is that so few places are willing to train anybody anymore (or invest pretty much anything in their workforce, but I'll stop there), and not only want people with a particular (and usually very limited) degree/certification but also several years of experience in a (also very specific) similar, if not identical, position; they basically just want you to walk in on day one, sit down, and not command a moment more of their thoughts or energy from that day forward ('til they outsource your position, of course).

The only places that regularly train anymore pay minimum wage or close to it, and offer little to no real advancement opportunities (getting to the point that you might be in line for a promotion? They'll cut your hours whilst simultaneously increasing your workload, possibly until you can't afford to work there anymore)...my own job being a case in point. Moreover, I found out that, at least around here, the people who do train aren't compensated for the extra work: I've trained four people (three of which have since left) since gaining a full-time position (which, I might add, came with benefits but also an hourly wage cut of nearly a third from my previous part-time rate...and all previous raises were voided), and I haven't seen an extra penny for any of it.

Way back in 1992 when i was applying for Uni's it seemed pretty clear that there was no point doing -just- the degree : almost every job wanted a degree plus at least a year of experience. So it made sense to do a sandwich course with a year in industry. That made a massive difference - i had secured my first job before i'd graduated but there was a clear 8k GBP gap between having no experience and having -one- year. It's pretty crazy.

Regarding outsourcing - it's false economy. Companies seems to think "A Java coder is a Java coder is a Java coder!" - i've seen this fail over and over and over again, but unfortunately most companies are ran on spreedsheets that simply have "Employee name, Employee role, salary" so eliminating those positions and moving them to offshore vendors is such an easy and lazy budget win that the trend will just continue to gather pace until India or wherever becomes too expensive and we move on to the next "emerging tech powerhouse!" (Vietnam etc)

[BulletMagnet]

So it made sense to do a sandwich course with a year in industry.

I don't know much about the UK's university system or anything like that, so I'm rather curious about how this works: here in the US the closest alternative that most people have are unpaid internships, which some employers (surprise, surprise) have abused to such an extent that a handful of people have sued over it.

EDIT: Apparently you guys have some of this as well.

[Necronopticous]

I just paid off my car this morning. Such a good feeling.

[brentsg]

So it made sense to do a sandwich course with a year in industry.

I don't know much about the UK's university system or anything like that, so I'm rather curious about how this works: here in the US the closest alternative that most people have are unpaid internships, which some employers (surprise, surprise) have abused to such an extent that a handful of people have sued over it.

It's been a while but my university had a co-op program with industry. You'd attend college, work, attend college, work.. on a semester by semester basis. The positions were paid and were essentially internships with companies like Proctor and Gamble, Monsanto, Caterpillar, etc.

[Davey]

The main problem (as I see it) is that so few places are willing to train anybody anymore (or invest pretty much anything in their workforce, but I'll stop there), and not only want people with a particular (and usually very limited) degree/certification but also several years of experience in a (also very specific) similar, if not identical, position; they basically just want you to walk in on day one, sit down, and not command a moment more of their thoughts or energy from that day forward ('til they outsource your position, of course).

While I agree that this is a problematic trend, it's different from what I was talking about. Some places just use a college degree as an arbitrary requirement; the degree doesn't even necessarily apply directly to the job. I assume the rationale is that it guarantees a certain level of intelligence and/or work ethic, but really it's just forcing a lot of people to jump through a really expensive hoop.

Regarding outsourcing - it's false economy. Companies seems to think "A Java coder is a Java coder is a Java coder!" - i've seen this fail over and over and over again, but unfortunately most companies are ran on spreedsheets that simply have "Employee name, Employee role, salary" so eliminating those positions and moving them to offshore vendors is such an easy and lazy budget win that the trend will just continue to gather pace until India or wherever becomes too expensive and we move on to the next "emerging tech powerhouse!" (Vietnam etc)

Luckily, I think enough companies have been burned by this that people actually think twice about it nowadays. The place I'm at now, and one place I worked at before, both got burned by offshoring, and basically moved everything back in-house. In a lot of programming jobs, understanding the business, being able to work with minimal guidance, and being somewhat consultative is what makes you valuable, not just blindly coding everything to spec.

It's been a while but my university had a co-op program with industry. You'd attend college, work, attend college, work.. on a semester by semester basis. The positions were paid and were essentially internships with companies like Proctor and Gamble, Monsanto, Caterpillar, etc.

Yeah, at my school co-ops were mandatory for engineering students. They got paid pretty well too, like 2/3 of an entry-level salary.

[Deca]

I technically have a loan on my car, but that's primarily just for building credit. I could pay it off comfortably if necessary.I consider myself extremely lucky to be debt free.

[BulletMagnet]

I assume the rationale is that it guarantees a certain level of intelligence and/or work ethic, but really it's just forcing a lot of people to jump through a really expensive hoop.

My extra-cynical self tends to view it as a litmus test to determine who's willing to pony up months or years of their time and thousands of their dollars for a possible eventual chance to labor for someone else in whatever whim-driven capacity is demanded of them, with few (if any) real alternatives if/when the market ever shifts or the upper crust simply smells a more lucrative alternative elsewhere. Any remaining sense of self-worth, after all, is bad for morale.

[Venom]

Yes, lots of it. >50K per year (med school with a family), the bank is happy to loan it... I was responsible with my finances during my previous education, thus I was disqualified from all the large scholarships.

[Davey]

BulletMagnet, the cynical reasoning I've heard is that you hire college graduates because you know they have tons of debt, so they can't afford to quit even when you treat them like shit.

[BulletMagnet]

Take your pick!