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BulletMagnet
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Post by BulletMagnet »

sffan wrote:However, before people knew anything about natural history, Christians did believe this literally. It may have been meant as literally 6 days by the authors. So, should every passage that is proved incorrect be then looked at in a metaphorical way? That seems silly to me too, since the original intent was literal.
That's not necessarily true; several Biblical passages indicate scientific knowledge a good deal ahead of the time of their being written. I'd hafta check exactly where they are, but I know that one passage speaks of the earth as "hanging upon nothing" and as a "circle" (also translated "sphere") when most people believed it was flat and riding on top of something. Somewhere else (I think the book of Job) makes reference to the water cycle, a long time before that was ever "officially" discovered. Then there are the various laws on cleanliness and the like in the Mosaic law, such as burying human waste, which pretty much no one else on earth did at that time (some even used it as medicine on open wounds, IIRC).

Even if you believe that the Bible was written more recently than it says it was under false pretenses for the purposes of fulfilling prophecy or the like, this sort of thing was still ahead of its time, one way or another. As such, there's no reason to assume that early Christians who read Revelation believed that there were actually a whole bunch of nasty critters with 7 heads running around, especially when a similar account was given to Daniel awhile earlier, and back then it was said outright that the beasts were symbolic. This sort of thing isn't exactly unheard of throughout the scriptures.
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Post by Davey »

Specineff wrote:My reply was to that rhetoric that goes "why does God allow people to suffer, why doesn't he do anything?" To that I reply: "Why don't *YOU* do anything?"
I'm sure there's been at least one or two cases in the history of mankind where good, hard working people suffered greatly due to factors beyond their control.

Not to be a dick... I'm probably just missing your point.
snap monkey wrote:Well, humans have only been around for a couple thousand years, which would then mean that the whole earth itself would only be a few days older than us. But there are rocks on earth that we know to be several million years old. Dinosaurs and what not. So it's impossible for that to be literally true.
It's a little known fact that fossil evidence was planted by God to test your faith. And you obviously failed. Besides, it has been established by Bishop James Ussher that the earth was created at 9 AM on 10/23/4004 BC, so it's really a moot point anyway.

To be a dick.
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Post by snap monkey »

sffan wrote:Sure, now that we know the true age of the earth we can say that the 6-day thing should not be taken literally.

However, before people knew anything about natural history, Christians did believe this literally. It may have been meant as literally 6 days by the authors. So, should every passage that is proved incorrect be then looked at in a metaphorical way? That seems silly to me too, since the original intent was literal.
It's not just a matter of nitpicking over facts presented in the bible, it's other stuff too. Here's another example (taken mostly from memory): In the old testament, Jewish law stated that you were only bound to forgive someone seven times. After that, it was purely up to you if you wanted to show mercy, but you had fulfilled your obligation to God. In the new testament, Peter questions Jesus about this; Jesus replied that you should forgive someone 70 times 7 times (Matthew 18:21-22). Taken literally, that'd mean that you were supposed to forgive someone up to 490 times. It's not something science or modern knowledge can disprove, it's a matter of interpretation. Personally, I think it means that you're not supposed to be keeping score, but should always forgive people.

These are just a couple examples I can think of which happen to both emphasise numbers. In both Judaism and Christianity, certain numbers carry special meanings (3, 7, 12, 40, to name a few). So maybe these aren't the best examples.

Personally, I don't think the bible was ever intended to be taken 100% literally. Of course, people have for a very long time. It's not a legal document.

again, IMO.
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Post by CMoon »

snap monkey wrote: The bible isn't supposed to be a science textbook, nor a history textbook. A lot of people take it too literally.

For instance, the bible says that God made the world in six days, on the sixth day he made man and then rested on the seventh. Well, humans have only been around for a couple thousand years, which would then mean that the whole earth itself would only be a few days older than us. But there are rocks on earth that we know to be several million years old. Dinosaurs and what not. So it's impossible for that to be literally true.

So what's the point you should take away from that story, if you believe in it? God made the earth. The other details about how many days it took and what he did on each day was just to give basis for the concept of a week and to also lay the ground for the Jewish Sabbath. People who contend that it happened exactly as it was written in the good book are missing the point and can't see the forest for the trees.

IMO
I just really liked this and wanted to quote it. Although actually humans have been around a couple HUNDRED thousand years (maybe more), not a couple thousand (when was ancient egypt!!??), the idea here is basically right.

As an agnostic science teacher, I also strongly believe there are areas where science has nothing to say. We are afterall, dealing only in facts, not truths. When someone says the earth came into existance 6000 years ago or so, I have some SERIOUS problems on the level of conflict with fact, however when someone says that 'God shaped the heavens', science really has nothing to say. Or even that God created all life on earth. I can speak of the natural forces which can be observed and studied, and I can speak of theories built upon the body of face. But as to what force might be behind the forces we can study, science can say nothing (and SHOULD say nothing.)

Ironically, while those people in Kansas I cannot help but call ignorant for not understanding what IS and IS NOT science attack evolutionary theory as a teachable idea within the schools, they miss this same argument from Darwin himself who in the last page of Origin makes clear this potential mystery behind those natural forces we can observe.

That these topics are so hotly debated in the US is only revealing of our lack of understanding in regards to basic philosophy and the nature of science (what it DOES and DOES NOT say). Science does not conflict with religion but rather only those tenants which people have extrapolated incorrectly from their beliefs (IE the bible does not say the sun circles the earth, but this became a part of christiantity until Copernicus and Gallileo UNDID this mistake).

Modern Christians (especially in the US) have to consider what the real tennants of Christianity are and not just extra baggage that has been tied on. And not to make this a evolutionary debate, but does anyone really think you're going to hell if you believe in dinosaurs???
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The n00b
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Post by The n00b »

While we're on the topic of not taking the bible literally, let's apply that to the koran too. While forcing "intelligent design" on kids is not cool, strapping bombs to those kids to use against your enemies is really really not cool.

You would think that the religions of the world would have learned from christianity but sadly they haven't. I just finished watching a history channel special on the crusades which pretty much hammered down the lesson that wars waged in the name of religion bring out the worst in people.
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Post by Turrican »

The n00b wrote:While we're on the topic of not taking the bible literally, let's apply that to the koran too. While forcing "intelligent design" on kids is not cool, strapping bombs to those kids to use against your enemies is really really not cool.
Bible, Quran... I don't really think they are the main motivation for terrorists, be they IRA or Islamic persons. These ancient text are very complex and have been given countless interpretation for each of their verse. So basically any human activity, from the absolute pacifism, to war, to rape and pillaging... You'll always find someone who does these actions "in the name of".

I believe the true reasons behind armed groups and violence as a whole, is a matter of economy. Money, power, control, that's what they look for, and the religion is often a mirror for the masses or some fervent followers that they can better manipulate.
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Michaelm
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Post by Michaelm »

To say you believe in god is like saying you believe in Hitler.
If you were a German living in Germany during those years he was on top.

It's like you both get screwed in the end ;)
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Post by The n00b »

Michaelm wrote:To say you believe in god is like saying you believe in Hitler.
If you were a German living in Germany during those years he was on top.

It's like you both get screwed in the end ;)
Yeah that was stupid...
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Post by Michaelm »

^^ Think about it, it's not that stupid

I'm not saying believers are nazi's.
I'm saying believers are fooled just like the germans were by the nazi's.
And fow what it's worth, nazis considered themselves Catholic.
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Post by Acid King »

Michaelm wrote:^^ Think about it, it's not that stupid

I'm not saying believers are nazi's.
I'm saying believers are fooled just like the germans were by the nazi's.
And fow what it's worth, nazis considered themselves Catholic.
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Post by sethsez »

Michaelm wrote:^^ Think about it, it's not that stupid

I'm not saying believers are nazi's.
I'm saying believers are fooled just like the germans were by the nazi's.
And fow what it's worth, nazis considered themselves Catholic.
Godwin's Law strikes again!

If your point is only connected to Nazis or Hitler in the most vague, strained sense, don't make the connection. It's just stupid.

"Stealing a cookie makes you like Hitler, who stole the lives of millions!"
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Post by judesalmon »

Comparing believers in God to those that followed Hitler is possibly one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard.
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Post by The n00b »

judesalmon wrote:Comparing believers in God to those that followed Hitler is possibly one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard.
Yeah people who do that make people around them stupider by association much like nazis who lobotomized their Jewish victims!
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Post by sethsez »

Now now people, let's not start exaggerating things. After all, exaggeration was one of the tools Hitler used to get into power in the first place.
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Post by Michaelm »

sethsez wrote: Godwin's Law strikes again!

If your point is only connected to Nazis or Hitler in the most vague, strained sense, don't make the connection. It's just stupid.

"Stealing a cookie makes you like Hitler, who stole the lives of millions!"
It is certainly not the most vague strained sense.
Maybe you understand it better if you would imagine that Hitler was a book.
Also when Hitler was in power the Germans were taught to hate jews.
Unfortunatly a lot of them bought that with catastrophic outcomes.
Luckily there were still a few who kept "sane" and helped rescue some jews.

What if the bible would teach you to make all people believe in your god ?
God tells you to so you have to obey to show your belief in him.
It's what those terrorists like to preach about their koran. They are allowed to fight unbelievers they say. They too believe in 1 god. Remember the crusades ? Spanish inquisition ? All in the name of god. They too read the same book.

Just keep discussing, don't call eachother stupid
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Post by Specineff »

Sheesh. More fuel for the fire, but here it goes.

Hitler says, kill the jews.
God says: Love your neighbor.


Hitler said: We are superior.
Jesus said: I'm lord and master, yet I have washed your feet, Peter.


Hitler said: Do what I say, or else.
Jesus said: If you don't believe my words, believe my acts. (by example)


Hitler said: Kill you all!
God said: Lo, I have placed life and death before you. And then he adds: Choose life, then, so all goes well for you.

ZOMG JESUS AND HIMMLER WERE BROTHERS AND JOINED AT THE HIP!!!11!!!!

:roll:

The inquisitions and the crusades would have occurred anyway even if there was no bible or christianism. It was all political crap disguised of a just cause. Just because they invoked God's name doesn't mean he approved of it. He's not responsible for what man does. (Let's suppose that there was another god back then, let's call him... Potato. The greedy power-hungry bastards responsible for the above mentioned genocides would have chosen Potato's Will as an excuse to go and murder all the jews and arabs back then.) Think about it. If he wanted us to be programmed to do his will all the time, we'd be automatons or simple mindless animals following instinct.


It's obviously just easier to blame God for the actions of man than take action about it or accept responsability for one's acts.
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Post by Specineff »

Sorry for double posting, mods, but this one is related to the original purpose of the thread.


People can change. At least I can. I know I have changed. Part because of who I am, and part because of society's influence on me, and my own experiences. I have both mellowed out, and yet learned how to stand up against others when they try to wrong me. To be less conflictive.

I've learned to keep my mouth shut, when before I didn't know when to stop talking. I have become a problem solver, rather than a neutral watcher. To take control of what I can take control of, rather than just wait for something bad to happen and correct it. And that retribution doesn't have to happen on the spot. Heh heh.

I wouldn't be here if I had remained the same. People can change but only if they want or learn to. So my stand on that is yes.
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Post by Venom »

Hitler says, kill the jews.
God says: Love your neighbor.
God also says: Jews, kill all that stands in your way, kill, rape, pillage, etc.


Hitler said: We are superior.
Jesus said: I'm lord and master, yet I have washed your feet, Peter.
God also said: Thou shall have no gods before me (punishment of death)


Hitler said: Do what I say, or else.
Jesus said: If you don't believe my words, believe my acts. (by example)
Jesus also said: If you or your town don't recieve me, God shall rain destruction on it worse than Sodom and Gomorrah

Hitler said: Kill you all!
God said: Lo, I have placed life and death before you. And then he adds: Choose life, then, so all goes well for you.
God also said: I drowned my whole creation, and I think I'll throw the majority of it in a lake of fire down the road
See, it really matters what verses and things you focus on in the bible. One can draw a very positive or negative message from it. Not looking for an argument, just hoping you see how arbirary the message one draws from it is.

I got a good laugh out of the Nazi comparisons, especially the exageration and cookie example :lol:
Fascination...
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Post by Michaelm »

Specineff wrote:Sheesh. More fuel for the fire, but here it goes.
It shows that you miss my point completely.
The point I'm trying to made is :
Hitler says, kill the jews.
God says: Love your neighbor.
Both groups above believe and act like it.
Hitler said: We are superior.
Jesus said: I'm lord and master, yet I have washed your feet, Peter.
Both groups above believe and act like it.
Hitler said: Do what I say, or else.
Jesus said: If you don't believe my words, believe my acts. (by example)
Both groups above believe and act like it.
Hitler said: Kill you all!
God said: Lo, I have placed life and death before you. And then he adds: Choose life, then, so all goes well for you.
Both groups above believe and act like it.

The inquisitions and the crusades would have occurred anyway even if there was no bible or christianism. It was all political crap disguised of a just cause. Just because they invoked God's name doesn't mean he approved of it. He's not responsible for what man does. (Let's suppose that there was another god back then, let's call him... Potato. The greedy power-hungry bastards responsible for the above mentioned genocides would have chosen Potato's Will as an excuse to go and murder all the jews and arabs back then.)
Offcourse WWII and the uprising of Hitler would have occured anyway.
It was all political crap disguised of a just cause. It didn't have anything to do with the situation of germany after WWI. Just because history shows that doesn't mean it's true.
Let's suppose there was another man back then, let's call him.......Wald.
Those poor starving germans held responsible for above mentioned genocides would have chosen Wald's will as an excuse to go and murder all the jews and arabs back then
Think about it. If he wanted us to be programmed to do his will all the time, we'd be automatons or simple mindless animals following instinct.
Isn't that exactly what your doing right now ? Following your biblical instinct defending his will with little thought over (mindless) arguments.
It's obviously just easier to blame God for the actions of man than take action about it or accept responsability for one's acts.
Actualy I don't believe in any god so ofcourse I'm not blaming any god for man's actions. I'm blaming man for man's action. Just to get that straight.
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Post by Neon »

Dude, no. Stop.
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Post by Specineff »

Michaelm wrote:
Think about it. If he wanted us to be programmed to do his will all the time, we'd be automatons or simple mindless animals following instinct.
Isn't that exactly what your doing right now ? Following your biblical instinct defending his will with little thought over (mindless) arguments.

One could say the same about you and Hitler. God doesn't need me to defend him. I'm just trying to explain what Sethsez pointed (very rationally) a few posts above. By my own will.

In other words, it's my choice to point out to you that your comparison was a bit... how can I say... inaccurate, bordering on trolling.
Michaelm wrote:Both groups above believe and act like it.
And which belief has been proven to kill millions of people and one of the most regrettable episodes of humanity in the 20th century? "Kill them all" or "Be humble"?

By your logic, I'm just as evil as Hitler because I kill millions of germs that could cause me an infection, when I mop the kitchen with chlorine.

By your logic, I am a nazi because I choose to live my life in a disciplined manner, just like Hitler had (abusive and inhumane) rules.

Apples and Oranges. :roll:

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Post by CMoon »

This thread just ate a shit-ton of stupid pills.

Might be better talking about Tacos...
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Post by Marc »

Or even punching people in the face as per my ideas on change. Stupid, but still makes more sense than some of the above :lol:
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Post by The n00b »

Michaelm wrote:
sethsez wrote: Godwin's Law strikes again!

If your point is only connected to Nazis or Hitler in the most vague, strained sense, don't make the connection. It's just stupid.

"Stealing a cookie makes you like Hitler, who stole the lives of millions!"
It is certainly not the most vague strained sense.
Maybe you understand it better if you would imagine that Hitler was a book.
Also when Hitler was in power the Germans were taught to hate jews.
Unfortunatly a lot of them bought that with catastrophic outcomes.
Luckily there were still a few who kept "sane" and helped rescue some jews.

What if the bible would teach you to make all people believe in your god ?
God tells you to so you have to obey to show your belief in him.
It's what those terrorists like to preach about their koran. They are allowed to fight unbelievers they say. They too believe in 1 god. Remember the crusades ? Spanish inquisition ? All in the name of god. They too read the same book.

Just keep discussing, don't call eachother stupid
Is that your FINAL SOLUTION? Seriously though what you said was just stupid, so just move on already.
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Post by Michaelm »

Specineff wrote: In other words, it's my choice to point out to you that your comparison was a bit... how can I say... inaccurate, bordering on trolling.
Yes, it was meant to be shocking, not to be an insult.
And which belief has been proven to kill millions of people and one of the most regrettable episodes of humanity in the 20th century? "Kill them all" or "Be humble"?
Does it matter which belief it was ?!?
By your logic, I'm just as evil as Hitler because I kill millions of germs that could cause me an infection, when I mop the kitchen with chlorine.
I never said you were just as evil. My whole point I'm trying to make is that you believe in something that some nitwit wrote a couple of thousand years ago
By your logic, I am a nazi because I choose to live my life in a disciplined manner, just like Hitler had (abusive and inhumane) rules.
Again I never said that. I'm comparing the difference between someone
who will make up his own mind or someone who chooses the easy way by folowing a book or words that are put on to him as truth.
Ofcourse the second group doens't necesarily need to think about things as they seem to get all the answers out of a book.

Why don't you come with real arguments instead of twisting my words and falling back in defense because of it ?

If you wanna be a believer, fine with me but keep it to yourself and don't go posting on forums that do not serve a religious purpose telling people that 'He' will save them. That is just a load of bollocks and far more stupid than anything I've said.
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Post by The n00b »

Michaelm wrote:
Specineff wrote: In other words, it's my choice to point out to you that your comparison was a bit... how can I say... inaccurate, bordering on trolling.
Yes, it was meant to be shocking, not to be an insult.
And which belief has been proven to kill millions of people and one of the most regrettable episodes of humanity in the 20th century? "Kill them all" or "Be humble"?
Does it matter which belief it was ?!?
By your logic, I'm just as evil as Hitler because I kill millions of germs that could cause me an infection, when I mop the kitchen with chlorine.
I never said you were just as evil. My whole point I'm trying to make is that you believe in something that some nitwit wrote a couple of thousand years ago
By your logic, I am a nazi because I choose to live my life in a disciplined manner, just like Hitler had (abusive and inhumane) rules.
Again I never said that. I'm comparing the difference between someone
who will make up his own mind or someone who chooses the easy way by folowing a book or words that are put on to him as truth.
Ofcourse the second group doens't necesarily need to think about things as they seem to get all the answers out of a book.

Why don't you come with real arguments instead of twisting my words and falling back in defense because of it ?

If you wanna be a believer, fine with me but keep it to yourself and don't go posting on forums that do not serve a religious purpose telling people that 'He' will save them. That is just a load of bollocks and far more stupid than anything I've said.
You know who else use to rant and rave a lot even when he knew he was wrong? HITLER
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Post by Michaelm »

The n00b wrote: You know who else use to rant and rave a lot even when he knew he was wrong? HITLER
Respect to you noob ! It shows character to admit that ;)
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Post by sethsez »

As a rather militant liberal atheist, I'd like to apologize for Michaelm and all the rest of my bretheren who can't make a point without bringing up Hitler. Some of us are capable of making arguments without resorting to hyperbole and cheap "look at me!" tactics. Honest.
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Post by Acid King »

sethsez wrote:As a rather militant liberal atheist, I'd like to apologize for Michaelm and all the rest of my bretheren who can't make a point without bringing up Hitler. Some of us are capable of making arguments without resorting to hyperbole and cheap "look at me!" tactics. Honest.
Sounds like something Hitler would say.
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Post by sethsez »

Hitler resorted to cheap attacks like that all the time!
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