Gulf War 3 (or 4, or 5, depending...)

[Moniker]

As an American who believes that America, as the chief superpower, needs to enforce certain principles around the world, I find myself curiously apathetic towards the situation in Syria. The (racist) view that I'm inclined towards says, "Why can't these assholes figure things out for themselves??? Why do my younger cousins need to go get blown up by IEDs because the MidEast is stupidly sectarian, selfish (as far as rulers go), and shortsighted enough to bring in hardcore radicals who could never pull off a national government even if granted the opportunity!

A thousand years ago, Saladin & Co. were more enlightened than the Christians. 500 years ago, the Ottomans were more tolerant than Christians (although a more nuanced history is required). Yeah, in hindsight, the placement of Israel was probably a bad idea, but Jesus. Get your shit together!

Where's the Ben Franklin of the Arab Spring??

That's all, for now.

[Ed Oscuro]

100,000 dead - eh
300 dead in a gas attack - OH SHIT

The Russians are making the point that they don't think Egypt, Iraq, and Libya have turned out well. I'm not sure that's actually true but it's becoming fairly well known that there are some Al Quaida members in some of the rebel groups, and as we know Islamic terrorists are this era's Communist insurgent. It is a dangerous situation though, and not clear-cut what needs to be done.

[BulletMagnet]

I'm not an expert in Mideast history (or history in general), but I seem to recall that sometime after WWI the West basically redrew the region's national boundaries into what they are today to suit their own purposes, in many cases shoehorning tribes and groups that didn't get along under the same label, and appointing and supporting despots in exchange for a chunk of the oil wealth (and all of this comes a ways before Israel even existed).

Someone correct me if I've got the basic account wrong, but to the best of my knowledge it's a bit self-serving to act like everything that's gone wrong in the region has happened in a vacuum. In any event, however little we care about the mideast we care about the rest of Africa even less, since these days we can get our slaves from elsewhere.

[CIT]

Nobody will send troops to Syria that would be insanity. The brutal truth is that it is not in the West's strategic interest for any side in Syria to win.

Prolonged conflict will weaken Iranian strategic depth and keep the Hezbollah from messing with Israel, as well as prevent the Islamists (Nusra front) from gaining power in Syria.

Recently Assad has been a little bit too successful in beating back the rebels, that's why the US, Britain (and France?) will just bomb some of his military assets to weaken him enough so that the rebels start making some inroads again without actually being able to topple him.

So you're gonna see maybe 3-5 days of bombing, probably with cruise missiles, to destroy Assad's airforce and anti-air capabilities. Even if the allies know where his C-weapons are they will likely not be a target, as bombing chemical weapons depots is considered equal to the use of such weapons due to the subsequent release of the chemicals.

[trap15]

Well said, CIT, quite accurate. I'm going to try to get austere in here to comment, since he knows very much about the goings-on inside and out of Syria.

[Moniker]

I'm not an expert in Mideast history (or history in general), but I seem to recall that sometime after WWI the West basically redrew the region's national boundaries into what they are today to suit their own purposes, in many cases shoehorning tribes and groups that didn't get along under the same label, and appointing and supporting despots in exchange for a chunk of the oil wealth (and all of this comes a ways before Israel even existed).

Someone correct me if I've got the basic account wrong, but to the best of my knowledge it's a bit self-serving to act like everything that's gone wrong in the region has happened in a vacuum. In any event, however little we care about the mideast we care about the rest of Africa even less, since these days we can get our slaves from elsewhere.

Yeah, I'm on board with this. In America, we're still trying to do right (unsuccessfully) by blacks due to the heinous history they were subjected to. In the Mid East, yeah, Britain and France pretty much carved up everything to their own specifications after WWI. And while I'm sympathetic to that (probably more towards Pakistan and Palestine than others..), it's hard to justify the level of radicalism/terrorism (and I use the word 'terrorism' with great gravity and consideration) that has pervaded the region.

My sense is that Americans feel the same way about Syria as they do regarding gang warfare in LA. "Let the animals wipe each other out." Who knows what qualifies as a fair shake these days, but folks (in all walks of life) seem keen on looking out for #1 to the detriment of everyone else.

I'm probably biased since I've had one relative killed in Iraq, another crippled for life in Afghanistan, and yet another heading Over There next month. I agree with Ed that chemical weapons aren't nearly as despicable as they're depicted (I actually did a term paper defending them as more humane than bullets and bombs -- fewer deaths, many more recoveries, etc), so it all seems fairly arbitrary at best, and cynical at worst.

As for Africa, the cradle of humanity and also its deathbed, I think everyone's written off the continent long ago. I made a trip to Kenya around 8 years ago to build a school, playground, and beehives (since there was no arable land). On my drive back to Nairobi, I saw that everything I'd helped build was stripped down for parts. I'll never go back to that hell again.

Who's fault is it? Everyone's. When misanthropy is the only sane option, you know things are bad.

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, I'm not sure I think chemical weapons are better - banning easy and terrorizing agents of death like that helps keep the focus on restricting fighting to those who have agreed to take up arms, and restrict collateral damage. Some of the chemical or certainly biological weapons could be quite damaging to the environment in ways that you wouldn't expect from conventional weapons, in that they can be extra indiscriminate against lifeforms and possibly harming things trying to live years later. But if I could see your paper I might be convinced otherwise.

I would like to say - hopefully not a shock to anybody who's been reading me in the Gun thread - that while there is definitely a use and necessity for evolutionary and technological advancements in all areas, including warfare, that doesn't mean we have to accept the introduction of all those agents of death ever created as a "new normal" for the battlefield or at home. We're seeing this play out again with the (hopefully not failing) attempt to restrict nuclear proliferation.

Rather I think that the willingness to jump into action based on 300 deaths whereas 100,000 deaths previously didn't afford any opportunity for even a UN resolution is quite shocking. It's expected, but still it shocks my conscience.

[evil_ash_xero]

100,000 dead - eh
300 dead in a gas attack - OH SHIT

Yeah, that's what I thought too.

[ED-057]

The idea that the USA (more specifically, the fucktards in the federal government) has any legitimate reason to start blowing up shit in Syria is absurd. The idea that they would do so to "protect human rights" or anyone's interests other than their own is doubly so.

[Jonathan Ingram]

As for Africa, the cradle of humanity and also its deathbed, I think everyone's written off the continent long ago. I made a trip to Kenya around 8 years ago to build a school, playground, and beehives (since there was no arable land). On my drive back to Nairobi, I saw that everything I'd helped build was stripped down for parts. I'll never go back to that hell again.

Sure, let`s turn a blind eye to the ongoing rape of Africa at the hands of the world imperialist powers(one of which you slavishly swear allegiance to) and how it is effectively barred from any positive socio-economic development in the future. Let`s forget the coup d`etats that brought to power neocolonial puppets like Blaise Compaore and Joseph Mabutu who sold out their countries to IMF and World Bank, or the countless Western-backed atrocities like the genocide of the population of Eastern Congo`s mineral rich provinces or the formation of Africom or... the list can go on almost indefinitely. No, let`s blame it all on the dark souls of the black people who just don`t know any better. This is either willful ignorance or just plain racism.

You may have written Africa off, but the multinationals sucking the continent dry and the governments serving them have not.

[Moniker]

As for Africa, the cradle of humanity and also its deathbed, I think everyone's written off the continent long ago. I made a trip to Kenya around 8 years ago to build a school, playground, and beehives (since there was no arable land). On my drive back to Nairobi, I saw that everything I'd helped build was stripped down for parts. I'll never go back to that hell again.

Sure, let`s turn a blind eye to the ongoing rape of Africa at the hands of the world imperialist powers(one of which you slavishly swear allegiance to) and how it is effectively barred from any positive socio-economic development in the future. Let`s forget the coup d`etats that brought to power neocolonial puppets like Blaise Compaore and Joseph Mabutu who sold out their countries to IMF and World Bank, or the countless Western-backed atrocities like the genocide of the population of Eastern Congo`s mineral rich provinces or the formation of Africom or... the list can go on almost indefinitely. No, let`s blame it all on the dark souls of the black people who just don`t know any better. This is either willful ignorance or just plain racism.

You may have written Africa off, but the multinationals sucking the continent dry and the governments serving them have not.

I never said it was the fault of Africans that Africa is a hell, merely that it is a hell. Or at least the very small portion I've visited (which sounds a lot like reports of most other areas). I don't know enough to assign blame except to European imperialists.

I don't think I slavishly swear allegiance to the US. I don't even support the pledge of allegiance taking place in public schools. I also think it's absurd to "love one's country," unless you have an unusually low estimation of what love is. I will admit that much of my ignorance is willful, though. Not sure I could take the entire truth without eating a bullet.

[Moniker]

Forgot to mention the southern Kenyan belief (almost certainly more widespread than that) that fucking a virgin (preferably 9-12 years old) cures HIV. We can blame the West for most things, but I feel reasonably sure that this isn't one of them.

[drauch]

I'm pretty sure most people could say Africa is a shithole without being ignorant or racist. Kind of an objective reality.

[trap15]

The West's plan falls apart.
What a shit show. Can't wait for it to all fall apart and backfire.

[CIT]

The West's plan falls apart.
What a shit show. Can't wait for it to all fall apart and backfire.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/sy ... 90892.html

[antron]

The West's plan falls apart.
What a shit show. Can't wait for it to all fall apart and backfire.

you do realize this article is about an attack much earlier this year right? not the one that may now trigger western involvement. nice "got'cha" headline though, CNN should copy it.

I want to know what's in the intercepted calls to the chemical weapons division of the Syrian army. Not sure what we should do about it though. Perhaps just kill Assad to make a point. But then again we don't "assassinate" sheesh.

[trap15]

Yes, that's correct. Sorry.

However... The most recent attack is surely the work of the rebels as well. Good stuff.

[BulletMagnet]

...admitting the weapons were provided by Saudis

I believe this is the very definition of "elephant in the room nobody wants to acknowledge."

[antron]

Yes, that's correct. Sorry.

However... The most recent attack is surely the work of the rebels as well. Good stuff.

Please forgive me for assuming that whatever is reported on this subject by an official Russian government media arm to be complete Kremlin propaganda. I think this chance is extremely high.

On the other hand I think the rebels have the most to gain from this event, and are therefore the most likely culprits. I expect my opinion to change if the audio of the intercepted calls are released.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Forgot to mention the southern Kenyan belief (almost certainly more widespread than that) that fucking a virgin (preferably 9-12 years old) cures HIV. We can blame the West for most things, but I feel reasonably sure that this isn't one of them.

And female genital mutilations are still practiced in much of Africa. What`s new? That these came to be is not the West`s fault. That they still exist and are so widespread in this day and age very much is as anyone leading a serious effort to overcome this backwardness is snuffed out in a quick manner. For examples look no further than Thomas Sankara`s short-lived government in Burkina Faso and the way France dealt with it.

[antron]

Obama just stated that the US has the telemetry on the rocket that delivered the gas, and that it clearly came from government forces. He also stated that he will only act with congressional approval. I think he'll probably get it.

Of course it's easy to dismiss this as a US government lie, but I'd like to know what motive anyone thinks he'd have to do that. The strikes will only be meant to demonstrate that anyone who uses chemical weapons cannot do so unchecked. This isn't an oil grab.