Great Britain — a post-democracy?

[CIT]

Seems like shit is out of control on the island.

- Economy in the doldrums
- Mass surveillance of practically all streets and all telecommunications
- Newspaper editors being intimidated Putin-style
- Anti-terrorism laws being applied to detain foreigners, who are clearly not terrorism suspects
- State-controlled Internet censorship, including the implementation of Chinese filter technology

From the outside looking in, it's as though the UK, once one of the few beacons of freedom in the world, has completely lost its way. But I have to wonder why you don't hear more Brits voicing their concerns. Do people simply trust their leaders and institutions? Or are these considered necessary evils to protect the greater good? Maybe I'm just paranoid?

If you'd care to share, I'd like to get the perspective of some UK-folks on this.

[SuperPang]

Have you been reading the Daily Mail?

Basically there's a new right wing political party lead by a moronic admiral ackbar lookalike that started winning seats so the government are trying to look tough on the issues that matter to the paranoid white middle class bigots that vote for them.

It's not that bad. Unemployment is down, the UK is a safe place to live and we're good at sport again.

[Skykid]

It's not that bad. Unemployment is down, the UK is a safe place to live and we're good at sport again.

Not football.

[Casey120]

Yes you are , you bought most of the other Euro country's skill.
Some aged under ten years old !

In the Dutch premier league we reserve part of the Stadium seats for the home crowd, part for the visitors and biggest part for the UK team scouts

[cools]

What Pang said.

The media tend to be sensationalist. Dig a bit further into every story and the rationale for things is perfectly reasonable.

The one thing that really annoys me is the furore whenever there's a government u-turn. It'd be nice to see some praise for admitting poor judgement and listening to the public, rather than the criticism of weakness.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

Some of the points in CIT's original post may have been over-stated but I agree there are certainly movements in a worrying direction. The UK government ordering the Guardian to destroy hard drives containing information that might be damaging to the American government has poor implications for our free press and also demonstrates our willingness to play second fiddle to America whenever they ask. It also shows a ridiculous lack of tech savvy from our government, anyone with a basic knowledge of computers would know that these guys have backups somewhere (apparently the hired goons didn't even attempt to gain any proof that these were the hard drives containing the correct information, they just took them at their word).
Of course it could be possible (or likely) that the government are tech-savvy enough to be aware of these points and this was simply a shake-down to show America that we've got their back during this 'troublesome' time.

Side-note - Last I heard the economy was showing signs of improvement, still a long way from being good again though.

[railslave]

I honestly think this is all a perfect opportunity for everyone to behave themselves online...<<<uk folk

[spadgy]

What Pang said.

The media tend to be sensationalist. Dig a bit further into every story and the rationale for things is perfectly reasonable.

What cools said Pang said.

This UKIP political party are right wing arseholes and causing the Conservative party to lean a little more right, but it still feels like a fairly liberal, safe and free place.

That said, Skykid's back in the country. Boom boom!

[TransatlanticFoe]

Yeah, the Tories seem more concerned with taking back the votes they might lose to UKIP than trying to win over voters from the, frankly hilarious, Labour party - who seem to answer every question by saying "more taxation" and/or "more borrowing". The result is that a lot of the headline stuff is increasingly right wing and nanny state - like opt-in porn filters designed to create a go-to list of perverts and weirdos who are one wank away from becoming kiddy fiddlers in the minds of the conservative loons.

Most of the OP stuff is overstated, but there is increasing Americanisation. The terror laws btw seem to be used for all manner of things that simply may present "harm to the state". That we are happy to bend over backwards for the Americans is really nothing new.

I really do worry far more about Google selling data to whoever wants it than the government watching me in case I'm naughty.

Finally, anything to curb the activities of our filthy, rotten press is much appreciated. Funny that a nurse committed suicide because of a prank call from a radio station and not the legions of reporters following her around everywhere broadcasting her name in every newspaper.

[BulletMagnet]

I really do worry far more about Google selling data to whoever wants it than the government watching me in case I'm naughty.

Methinks this right here sums up the most essential difference between the modern UK and the modern USA: say something like that on this side of the Atlantic and just watch the incredulous jaws around you drop one by one.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

Finally, anything to curb the activities of our filthy, rotten press is much appreciated. Funny that a nurse committed suicide because of a prank call from a radio station and not the legions of reporters following her around everywhere broadcasting her name in every newspaper.

Admittedly that was a terrible situation which did show the consequences the media can have, but I don't think you can use it as a reason to call for freedom of the press to be revoked. The papers needs to be allowed to report on whatever is in the interests of the people.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Well it turns out the interests of the people are pretty bloody banal or just outright spiteful.

Finding good old investigative journalism is like trying to get captive pandas to procreate. Freedom of the press these days is used as an excuse for outright harrassment and to fish around in dirty laundry, which is just as abhorrent as restricting the press from reporting on something because it might make the government look bad. Frankly, the government doesn't need much help in that department anyway.

[spadgy]

Finally, anything to curb the activities of our filthy, rotten press is much appreciated.

I'd best keep quiet! At least using and modding this forum means I get a bit less work done!

Of course - I'm not a real journalist. I'm a games magazine editor. But I do also review games for a UK national paper, so I guess I'm hack scum really (pretentious prick scum, though, as its The Observer). And I agree to a degree. We do have to be careful that curbing doesn't prevent the good journalists (they exist, but by being good, get little exposure compared to the crooks) doing their job. But, yes, too many bad press have got away with too much, and brought tighter regulation upon themselves. It's a shame, as a free press that works well would be much better.

EDIT: I should say I'm not against press regulation. I trained in journalistic law (from the perspective of learning how to respect it with my writing), and those laws are a great thing that journalists should abide by for the good of everyone. They also help us write more accurate, informative copy. Of course, even here in the forum we are all subject to them, as each post is publishing. So maybe I should redact everything I've ever said about Skykid (I love you really Skykid!).

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

Well it turns out the interests of the people are pretty bloody banal or just outright spiteful.

Finding good old investigative journalism is like trying to get captive pandas to procreate. Freedom of the press these days is used as an excuse for outright harrassment and to fish around in dirty laundry, which is just as abhorrent as restricting the press from reporting on something because it might make the government look bad. Frankly, the government doesn't need much help in that department anyway.

I understand what you're saying but it's unfair to tar everyone with the "banal or just outright spiteful" brush, not everyone's interests are Made In Chelsea and celebrity scandal. And yes finding good journalism is hard, but limiting freedom of the press wouldn't make it any easier. Basically I acknowledge the issues that you're raising but I can't agree that they warrant a censored media. To me nothing would warrant that.

[Weak Boson]

I don't really know but I'm going to share my opinion anyway.

We have a consumption based economy propped up by the city. We don't have anything like the manufacturing industry of Germany and that paints a sickly picture. If the feeble signs of economic recovery are anything they'll be signs of the next bubble to pop all over us. Wages go down in real terms, the gap between rich and poor increases and the country becomes less equal and more unhappy.

There's also the issue of our debt, but at least we're not the only fish in that barrel. The Conservatives like to blame Labour for the country's debt and while they could have handled the finances better (didn't Brown sell most of our gold at record low prices?) most of the pickle we're in comes from what they did to save the world. I mean banks. And the Tories haven't put themselves in a position to take the high ground on that. But to be honest I have no idea if this is the kind of problem that can be sorted out or if we can look forward to having our bones picked by those more canny than we.

I guess the fact that it's something even the biggest powers must contend with makes me think a way will be found to weasel out of it - but then again numerous European countries are already facing a reality much harsher than ours and all we've done about it is to think "gosh I'm glad that's not us!"

To be fair to the government, though, I can believe that the hard drive smashing Miranda detaining behavior is not all for the benefit of the Americans. IIRC Snowden said that GCHQ are actually worse than the NSA (something about transatlantic fibre-optic cables) so there's enough self interest there to make me think they did it for themselves. But then again it's not like those two aren't peas in a pod.

This thing about internet filtering is absurd. Surely no rational human being thinks it will work and is a good idea. I don't know whether they're stupid enough to root for it sincerely or if I should be getting my tin foil hat out. But most likely I think it was just for a bit of attention before holidays and in that case it might just get pushed back and not happen.

If it does happen I hope you have to opt in by phone so I get the opportunity to go into detail about how much of a fan of extreme pornography I am.

And by this point the effect of the alcohol is wearing off so I'm just going to hit submit before I start thinking too critically about what I just wrote.

[Ed Oscuro]

You guys are being as bad as the French. "Oh noes, we have caught ze malaise!" At least you aren't blaming immigrants for everything like all the anti-moslem groups in the continent, right?

So let's see what really troubles the British: The possibility of not being able to post pictures of themselves and their dildo collections by the Leylandii, and moral outrage on behalf of a crazy dead Indian woman who asked the pranksters to pay her mortgage after undergoing the rough equivalent of teenagers hacking your throwaway mailbox or spamming your Skype with JOHN KIMBLE soundboard clips. Also the hilarity of a tiny island nation holding onto unsafe nuclear submarine commitments instead of upgrading them properly or throwing in the towel. Here in the states, we burn $400M of submarine just to get out of a day's work and cut up $61M minesweepers just to please bitchy islanders angry about their reefs.

Oh yeah, and fuck birds that need biplanes, and squirrels in hats! Those are the worst!

- your friend from the colonies

[Randorama]

You guys are being as bad as the French. "Oh noes, we have caught ze malaise!" At least you aren't blaming immigrants for everything like all the anti-moslem groups in the continent, right?

Actually, xenophobic parties in the continent hate everyone not perceived as a local, not just muslims. Much like Tony Abbott, Kevin Rudd and their respective parties (from the colonies, too!), or the elephant lovers in Yankee land, and so on. Not to mention that Cameron blames every single of his shortfalls on EU.

Blaming someone else for everything is, apparently, the only skill that modern politicians seem to have, regardless of the country. Flavours depend on each country (see Russia, China on this matter, too), so I'd say that UK politicians have a lot of homework to do, much like everyone else.

[spadgy]

Oh yeah, and fuck birds that need biplanes, and squirrels in hats! Those are the worst!

They don't make all squirrels wear hats in the US? That's disgusting.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

As TransatlanticFoe posted I'm more worried about private businesses like Google than anything, besides it's not as if the UK govt has much power anymore when the liberals in EU force them to give prisoners votes or give UK serial murderers who have been given life sentences the possibility of release.

I do think the freedom of the press is an important thing, even though the UK press isn't a shining beacon of respectability and often needs the govt to step and slap them around for shit like wire tapping.

Oh yeah, and fuck birds that need biplanes, and squirrels in hats! Those are the worst!

They don't make all squirrels wear hats in the US? That's disgusting.

Well 95% of all the Squirrels in the UK are yanks so the end result is the same, making them wear hats is karma for Americanisation!

Infact I see, you're grey, not red, Spadgy is a damn yank in disguise! coming over here and screwing all our female reds GTFO.

[Danny]

It's not that bad. Unemployment is down, the UK is a safe place to live and we're good at sport again.

Not football.

To be fair we have never really been that good at footie in the first place. I can not wait for the inevitable world cup let down from those overpaid pampered eejits.

[Ed Oscuro]

As TransatlanticFoe posted I'm more worried about private businesses like Google than anything, besides it's not as if the UK govt has much power anymore when the liberals in EU force them to give prisoners votes or give UK serial murderers who have been given life sentences the possibility of release.

I do think the freedom of the press is an important thing, even though the UK press isn't a shining beacon of respectability and often needs the govt to step and slap them around for shit like wire tapping.

Oh yeah, and fuck birds that need biplanes, and squirrels in hats! Those are the worst!

They don't make all squirrels wear hats in the US? That's disgusting.

Well 95% of all the Squirrels in the UK are yanks so the end result is the same, making them wear hats is karma for Americanisation!

Infact I see, you're grey, not red, Spadgy is a damn yank in disguise! coming over here and screwing all our female reds GTFO.

Maybe this isn't the best time to mention that I got pooped on by a squirrel in London...I'm pretty sure it was a British squirrel anyway, none of my friendly local squirrels would do that to me.

[dcharlie]

Not football.

We suck at International football because we are obsessed with trying to play a "more technical game" which we are, frankly, rubbish at.

I don't get it - we basically decide from the offset to play a style and brand of football that doesn't suit us. Then we have this whole "big team mentality" thing where we'll happily through you into the team as long as you are from one of X number of teams - i'm glad this is starting to be addressed but the punditry around players like Lambert makes me want to throw up

"He's not international class!" "He shouldn't be near the team!"

You know what? The vast majority of players we have , by virtue of their performance for their country, AREN'T INTERNATIONAL CLASS EITHER. It's bollox - some people just perform and some don't and i was glad that Lambert scored to silence a whole raft of people. Same thing with Crouch - pundits hated him yet his goal scoring record for England is great.

Anyways - yes - we're not very good at international football and , despite the fact i've been to two world cups and four european championships, it's not that interesting especially compared to club football. And for the record, the team i support isn't in the premiership so i'm not about to start churning out the "-best- league in the world" stuff. It's probably the most exciting, fine, but "the best" is an overreaching statement that confuses entertainment with quality

[system11]

I'm sick and tired of all the fucking cameras everywhere you look.

[Skykid]

So maybe I should redact everything I've ever said about Skykid (I love you really Skykid!).

Not as much as I love you.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Maybe this isn't the best time to mention that I got pooped on by a squirrel in London...I'm pretty sure it was a British squirrel anyway, none of my friendly local squirrels would do that to me.

That was definitely a yank immigrant, a native red has too much class. Yet another example of Multiculturalism not working. Send em all back I say! Damn squirrels taking all the jobs.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

I'm sick and tired of all the fucking cameras everywhere you look.

Amen brother.

[Mero]

Finally, anything to curb the activities of our filthy, rotten press is much appreciated.

That's what they said in North Korea.

[DEL]

CIT wrote:

Seems like shit is out of control on the island.

- Economy in the doldrums
- Mass surveillance of practically all streets and all telecommunications
- Newspaper editors being intimidated Putin-style
- Anti-terrorism laws being applied to detain foreigners, who are clearly not terrorism suspects
- State-controlled Internet censorship, including the implementation of Chinese filter technology

From the outside looking in, it's as though the UK, once one of the few beacons of freedom in the world, has completely lost its way. But I have to wonder why you don't hear more Brits voicing their concerns. Do people simply trust their leaders and institutions? Or are these considered necessary evils to protect the greater good? Maybe I'm just paranoid?

I would agree with you on most of the points listed.

[dave4shmups]

I thought that the English Premier League was supposed to be one of the best in the world?

[Ed Oscuro]

Immigrant players paid for by immigrant money, though (supposedly). I guess that hurts the old Scot head-kicker's pride.