Shiden

[dmitsuki]

Hey guys! I am the developer of a SHMUP currently in development that will be released next month. It's called Shiden

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/garstudios/shiden





You can read a write up about the game on the website. For those curious it is being made with Unity, the only paid plugin I used was 2dtoolkit but that was because I was too lazy to write my own 2D tools for Unity.

If anybody wants to know anything about the game that isn't said on the Kickstarter page feel free to ask, or if you have a general shmup development question I'll try my best to help!

[n0rtygames]

This looks pretty sweet. It's a shame you've made it in Unity though, as that's pretty much going to rule out the ability to deploy to XBLIG or similar which is where most of us would be more likely to buy the game.

Okay, I'm going to sound like an asshole - but I don't *think* you're going to hit the kickstarter target based on the figures at the moment and that's a shame because I've seen some shmups that don't look anywhere near as well crafted as this make like $10k

That aside, don't be discouraged. Make the game, release it via something like Desura/Indiecity and charge for it - because it's definitely worth a few bucks in its current state!

Things I took from the vid:
* Explosions are nice
* The bullets and presentation are nice, they remind me of a blend of raizing games with some early toaplan stuff
* Some of the enemy formation seem a bit clusterfuck (to be blunt) but forgivable since it looks to play well

Only immediate criticism I have is satisfaction of the bomb. That purple thing that flies up the screen and clears the bullets really doesn't seem overly impressive. Here's my reasoning:

There's a tendency in modern home made shooters to follow the ygs2000 way of thinking where all that's important are bullet barrages and dodging. You've clearly not taken this route as is apparent from the explosions and general shootyness of your shooter (heh!) - but the sudden clearing of the bullets without any clear invincibility window and effects surrounding it seems lacking.

Have you played SDOJ? Pink Sweets? Ibara? When a bomb goes off in those games, it means business. It lingers on the screen, it's pronounced. You know a bomb went off in SDOJ because of the DUN DUN DUN DUN.. DUN DUN... DUUUUN sound that's going on. In Pink Sweets, your character shouts "Bomba!" and your bomb expands, lingers on the screen and you can just feel that it's doing damage to whatever it hits.. unfortunately, you shouldn't actually use it in Pink Sweets but I digress..

Then finally, you've got Ibara with its classic Raizing style bomb. Not only do we have the maniac pilot shouting "BOMBA!!" - shit goes absolutely bananas. You're encouraged to bomb, things explode.. they go crunch, it's glorious. Bombing in Ibara can become addictive as hell simply because of this.

That's literally all I can think of, but this mostly reflects a change in thinking on my part with regards to how a shmup should be over recent months.. take it with a pinch of salt!

[dmitsuki]

Thanks for the reply. I actually made it in unity because it allows me to reach the most platforms. I actually have an engine that works on the Xbox 360, however I opted for Unity anyway because porting the engine I have from XNA to monogame was not a walk in the park. I can at least say it will have very low PC requirements and a demo so you know if you can run it or not, and will have full controller support.

Okay, I'm going to sound like an asshole - but I don't *think* you're going to hit the kickstarter target based on the figures at the moment and that's a shame because I've seen some shmups that don't look anywhere near as well crafted as this make like $10k

That's OK man, I'm just hoping with the Kickstarter but it's really about platform reach. If the Kickstarter is successful I can put it on more platforms (because I can buy them) but if it isn't, there will DEFINITELY still be a PC release next month. I'm almost done with the game, no point in stopping now if the Kickstarter fails.

Only immediate criticism I have is satisfaction of the bomb. That purple thing that flies up the screen and clears the bullets really doesn't seem overly impressive. Here's my reasoning:

I'm sad to admit the bombs visuals are not really finished or extremely thought out at this point. There's a few problems with it I hope to fix before release (such as even after you bomb, if enemies don't die in one hit from the bomb they don't really indicate "I've just been smacked with your most powerful attack.")

That being said, while I want to improve the visuals of the bomb, I don't want to make it TOO addictive, you are penalized for using bombs in the game after-all.

Shiden means "purple lighting" so you can expect some purple lightingy bomb type attack by release!

[n0rtygames]

Unity's great. I use it - I really just meant that for this particular type of game, there's a whole bunch of people who will want to buy your game on xbox360 for up to $5 depending on how you price it.

you are penalized for using bombs in the game after-all.

All I'll say about that is times are changing. There's a definite change in mood around here recently in terms of what people are playing and how people are approaching shooters. People are starting to lean more towards Raizing and Seibu Kahatsu for inspiration and I think a very welcome return to a more classic style of shooter.

Not only do these games rock - but it's important to really look at the current climate of "retro games" (urgh! the term!) in general. Bullet Hell games came in to being due to a need to compete with the flashier 3D titles that were creeping in to arcades. They had to be just as enticing. The reality is that we're now well past that era and sadly - arcade are dying.

With people being a lot more open to actually spending their money on low budget indie titles than they were in the past - there's a definite opportunity for the right shmup to break out and get the attention it deserves.

My games just approaching the $1000 mark and I've not really advertised it and to be honest - it's not really that great of a game. There's a metric fuckload that I need to improve in it and when life settles again I will be putting that patch out there for sure. But the point is, if a niche audience will put $700 in my pocket and $300 in Microsofts for a title as rough around the edges as Chronoblast - then a seriously well polished shooter has a chance of making even more.

Specifically though, I'm talking about shooters that are blatantly inspired by Japanese games. If you look at the shooters in recent years that have been successful on the indie scene - most of them are side scrolling euroshmups and there hasn't been a lot of representation of 'our scene' that's made it in to the public eye with any sort of roaring success.

I can only attribute this to a few things:
* Poor game design resulting in unfair difficulty for beginners
* Lack of consideration for beginners

Now, neither of these points mean your game needs to be easy. Look at most Cave games where the first stages are pretty mild. It's about giving the player their share of fun, right?

I've come around to a way of thinking however, that leads me to believe that penalising a player for bombing is not the way we need to be going in the future and far be it from me to lecture you on how to design your game - but I really do think we need to start giving consideration to alternative mechanics that encourage strategy and planning as opposed to just hoarding bombs.

For instance, Crimson Clover has a great system where you dont really want to use a bomb - but it's there. It's infinitely more satisfying to go for a full break and even then you're looking for just the right spot to use it so you can get that double break going on. This is good design! You're keeping the player from being too trigger happy with their bombs if they're playing for score - but it also means that a novice can panic bomb quite regularly and get through earlier segments of the game. CC won't let you do this on later stages - but its a great carrot to dangle.

So in closing, there's a lot of ways you can address the bomb satisfaction. As I see it, if you're going to be targetting a very niche audience and targetting "casuals" is not on your radar - then you don't need to do a damned thing about the bomb due to the fact the people playing it are most likely going to be rabid genre fans going for score.

Hope that all makes sense, it's a bit of a mish mash of various thoughts all combined in to one big thing I know - but it's really how I'm feeling about the genre at the moment. I still think it's entirely possible to make a game that looks and plays like the extremely popular games out there - but with just enough of a subtle change to make it appeal to people who prefer other.

Incidentally, you mentioned Mars Matrix as inspiration. What is the first unique thing you think of if I say "first time playing Mars Matrix"? Yep... that charging bomb system that lets you bomb the shit out of the game without having a clue how to play.

Changes dont need to be major.. just subtle. Subtle changes can make so much difference.

Okay, done ranting at you with "helpful advice" now. Feel free to tell me to piss off

[dmitsuki]

You are actually enticing me, after all is said and done I may just go and do a 360 port. After I finish this I will mostly be doing art for a SRPG I have in my mind, so porting to the 360 would not really be too much of a challenge (I'm familiar with making games for it, anyway.)

For instance, Crimson Clover has a great system where you dont really want to use a bomb - but it's there. It's infinitely more satisfying to go for a full break and even then you're looking for just the right spot to use it so you can get that double break going on. This is good design! You're keeping the player from being too trigger happy with their bombs if they're playing for score - but it also means that a novice can panic bomb quite regularly and get through earlier segments of the game. CC won't let you do this on later stages - but its a great carrot to dangle.

Difficulty is a thing that really got to me. I think bomb penalization is good, and this is how I went about it (I actually think we kind of agree too)

You have a base score bonus at the end of a level for not using a bomb. For every bomb you use you get deducted points. Also, when you use a bomb it eliminates your multiplier. I do however give the player the option to throw as much bombs at enemies as they want if the game is too hard (as well as 3 difficulty settings) So if you are going for score, you can completely 1cc the game without bombs and go for max score, however a lot of people I have playtest the game aren't that great at shmups. They find themselves using bombs frequently yet I have never seen it negatively effect their experience because they do not care for score.

I think treating leaderboards in a "serious" yet "casual" way is perfect for this. If you aren't good at shmups, most of your friends probably aren't also so you would all be using bombs. This means your scores are all going to be in the same range. You may think "I can beat Phil if only I don't bomb here." so you may want to not bomb at a specific place, but you never have to say "absolutely no bomb usage."

However if you are serious about your total score ranking you can tell yourself "I will stock bombs for score and score alone (you get a bonus score getting a bomb with max bombs and other power ups too)" and try more to approach the level from an analytical level to figure out how to beat it without the need for anything but some bullets.


Accessibility is something I've been thinking about this whole time. Some people are really bad at games like these. When I was a kid and first played Raiden, I was terrible at it yet wanted to try over and over because pretty explosions and how cool you feel when you do it. I think people have less of an attention span so now the best thing to do is basically ramp them into the "true" game. I have 3 difficulties, I will probably name them Casual, Hard, Shin Shiden (right now it's Normal, Hard, Shin Shiden but this is misleading because normal is anything but and Shin Shiden is how levels are first designed) Casual mode will take people who have never really played a game like this, make them feel powerful but still ramp up difficulty yet give them a little tension. Hard mode is for people who played games like this and should warm them up for being able to beat the game on Shin Shiden. Shin Shiden should be a challenge, yet still not just throwing everything at you at once.

Do Don Pachi is actually really good for this in my opnion. in the first 1 or 2 levels of any of the games they are basically making you feel really powerful and cool when the difficulty is actually fairly low. I'm aiming for this in the level design department.

As for overall design my favorite SHMUP would have to be Cho Ren Sha 68k, and I'm taking that philosophy on enemy designs. I want a person to feel "I can dodge these bullets because I know how they are coming for me but I have to stay on my toes because they are coming fast" versus "There are millions of bullets coming at me right now, 90% don't matter and the 10% that do I need to find the exact pattern for" That's not a dig at more bullet oriented games, I just always preferred less, more meaningful, fast bullets. So playing through difficulties, anyone should be able to play through the game eventually on the hardest difficulty and beat the TLB of the second loop if they want. Or, if they aren't as dedicated simply enjoy a fun easy to moderately difficult SHMUP scumming through all the levels retrying at the start if they need to to beat the game.

All that being said, this game cost me $60 to make so anything after that will be profit, for the scale of it (5 levels 2 loops hopefully and a TLB) at 5 dollars I hope I can make a thousand to three thousand dollars. I really don't have very high expectations but I hope at the very least people who buy it enjoy it and think to themselves "this guy can make decent games!" and will lookout for the games I'll be making in the future!

[nasty_wolverine]

As for overall design my favorite SHMUP would have to be Cho Ren Sha 68k

even that has a very satisfying bomb. the key is not the graphic itself but the sound design. it should sound like thor put his hammer down.
you can keep the same graphic, but make the purple thingie slow down as it hits enemies and bullets and have a thunder rumbling kinda sound going(like the DOJ hyper sound).

Anyway, the game looks cool, would definitely want to see this come to PC.

[dmitsuki]

Oh, I'm not implying it doesn't. I'm definitely going to improve the bomb "feeling", don't worry!

It's coming to PC next month too, stay on the lookout.

[n0rtygames]

Bumping having seen this game is now $450/$1000 with 12 days to go and this game DOES NOT LOOK SHIT. I eat my own words about this probably not hitting its target. It stands a chance!

Seriously, if this doesn't get enough buzz to help it along given some of the shooters that have come here begging for pledges then dropped us like the plague... I will drink a cup of tea with a *very* furrowed brow and a clenched fist.

Nobody wants that. Do they?

[n0rtygames]

https://twitter.com/n0rtygames/status/3 ... 4209261568

Hope that helps. DJ Incompetent usually shouts about these things.

[dmitsuki]

Thanks for the support man! Just gotta keep grinding away at the game until then. Maybe I should make things like a twitter lol.

[DJ Incompetent]

Congrats on pulling through

[n0rtygames]

Grats.

[mice]

Good going!
Half of the backing is of the highest pledge.

[n0rtygames]

"Daaaaaaaaaad, can I borrow $500 please?"

[dmitsuki]

Thanks everyone! Really happy this worked out, and as SHMUP experts I would like to ask your opinion.

What conditions do you think should be met to have the TLB show up? Do you think the player should have to 1cc their run, or at least not use a "continue" (not a life, but not get a game over then continue the game.)

[dmitsuki]

Good going!
Half of the backing is of the highest pledge.

Thanks!

How does the Ouya market treat you? I am thinking about putting the game on the Ouya, but want to at least be able to recoup the cost of the console.

[nasty_wolverine]

What conditions do you think should be met to have the TLB show up? Do you think the player should have to 1cc their run, or at least not use a "continue" (not a life, but not get a game over then continue the game.)

Both are the same thing, atleast dont make it like ketsui, where you have to no miss no bomb to get to the second harder loop which you have to cross to meet the TLB.

You can make it like hellsinker, where you have to damage the pre tlb sufficiently before a timer expires to get the TLB.

[mice]

How does the Ouya market treat you? I am thinking about putting the game on the Ouya, but want to at least be able to recoup the cost of the console.

Badly.
But your game could maybe pay for the console cost.

[DJ Incompetent]

What conditions do you think should be met to have the TLB show up? Do you think the player should have to 1cc their run

Generally, just keep the rule at maintaining a 1CC run.
If your (future) game revolved around a specific well-communicated mechanic, players obeying that mechanic well to trigger a TLB is also acceptable.

You should only consider complicated TLB requirements if your development house has an established STG reputation and have infiltrated the Japanese 'n French STG scenes. Basically, you need a pretty committed fanbase before players will be willing to dig deep into a game's high-skill secrets.

Ouya

(From what I've been observing)
You should publish there if you're looking for blog-post PR boosts, ideally to sell on other platforms.
Ouya's scene doesn't have a ton of high-profile gems yet, so there's still room to get noticed for slingshot-popularity if your game is awesome. However, since Ouya's environment is a consumer-friendly generous demo scene, players have little reason to actually buy anything.
Treat Ouya platform like a "location test" or beta test as you ready your game's release on other platforms shortly after.

reading material

[dmitsuki]

Hey everybody, I just wanted some of your opinions again.


I'm thinking about TLB design, and I really desire to make it very, very, very hard. Not impossible mind you, not even Mushihimesama Futari level or anything, but it would definitely still be a controller breaking challenge, possibly twice as hard if not more than the final boss. What are your thoughts on really hard TLB'es?

[trap15]

I like a hard TLB, but I don't like it being an absurd jump from the last boss, unless you've made it so that you can resource-spam it (like the Raiden Fighters games essentially do). A difficulty as if it was the boss of the stage after the last stage, is a good way to do it.

[Cagar]

If the game itself is not that hard, then please make the TLB at least twice as hard as the last boss, so there's some challenge for experienced shmuppers too. (Like you need ALL resources to have a chance)


EDIT: So if the game is easy otherwise = make balls hard TLB
if the game is pretty hard already = don't make too big jump compared to last boss

[n0rtygames]

(Like you need ALL resources to have a chance)
EDIT: So if the game is easy otherwise = make balls hard TLB
if the game is pretty hard already = don't make too big jump compared to last boss

This but.. don't make the game hard for the sake of being hard, just make it a step up.

If your requirements are to NMNB, then yeah - make it worthwhile using those resources. From the sounds of it, you've been designing bomb hoarding with this in mind.

With that in mind, you should look at Futari Original mode for an example of how /not/ to do it. Now, I actually like Original - but it's as though Yagawa crept in the back door while drunk and fiddled with some maths. I like this, many do not.

You won't please everyone and you especially won't please Cagar - because he is a moany bastard. However, when it comes to difficulty - you could do far worse than to maybe let him playtest for you and tell you how it rates on the bullshit-o-meter

[Cagar]

You won't please everyone and you especially won't please Cagar - because he is a moany bastard. However, when it comes to difficulty - you could do far worse than to maybe let him playtest for you and tell you how it rates on the bullshit-o-meter

Like hell, agreed 100%.
Please PM me, dmitsuki. Seriously!

[DJ Incompetent]

What are your thoughts on really hard TLB'es?

Making a "hard" TLB isn't tough. Just vomit an onging really dense pattern infinitely. But you don't want that. It's lazy.

If you're all about the final fight, focus on giving it the most variety, bullet patterns, and transformations. Difficulty is what you balance afterwards.

The TLB should flow like a person inputting each segment of a complex combination to open a large safe or vault.

[Cagar]

"next month" is over. Where's the game?

[dmitsuki]

I wasn't aware to get on distribution services it took weeks, so I couldn't quite release it to the general public on time.

But you can purchase it now!

https://www.humblebundle.com/store/prod ... en/Shdkwi2

Time was a little tight at the end to implement every suggestion in this thread, but anything you think should be added in a free update go ahead and post it in this thread or email me at contact [xXatXx] garstudios.com

[Softdrink 117]

Picked it up and tried it out.

Overall it's pretty good! Very Cho Ren Sha, which is mostly a good thing. BGM is pretty solid too, especially on stage 2.

Some of the patterns do get a bit repetitive towards the end of the third stage, but then the boss and stage 4 really start mixing things up. Pretty serious difficulty spike, which is good, because the first couple stages are pretty simple.

I do have two pretty serious complaints though.

When you die, your respawn invincibility is incredibly short. This in itself is not a problem, but...

When you die or get hit with a shield active, the controls stop responding. Completely. As in, you have to re-press whatever buttons you are pressing to get them to do anything. So whenever you get shot, you'll stop shooting, which is annoying. But more significantly, when respawning you won't automatically move if you're just holding a direction-- and given the incredibly short respawn invincibility, this means that it is way, way too easy to die multiple times in a row because your ship won't react.

[Cagar]

Hit me for being stupid, but this .7z is protected with a password? I can't extract the game.

[GSK]

Is there a better link to the storefront, or a website with more detail or something? I wanna share the game around but a lot of people reflexively avoid clicking Kickstarter links, and the Humble Store link is basically just a checkout, so it's hard to show people what's up.

Hit me for being stupid, but this .7z is protected with a password? I can't extract the game.

humbleBundl3