Sony BVM-20F1U vs PVM-2030

[c0dehunter]

I already own two Commodore 1084-D1 monitors and a Sony PVM-2030, which I use for my MAME and other emulators (I use Soft15hz for this purpose) and I'm quite happy with them, specially the 13" 1084-S monitors since the color is superb, but ever since since reading the following review of the Sony BVM-20F1U:


http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=43256

I have acquired an intense desire to obtain one of the Sony BVM-20F1U. I have found a local, which sells for $499, but does not seem to come with it's standard remote.

These are my concerns:
1) Do I need a custom cable (like my other CRTs, which I have made, VGA to RGB cables that is) for this CRT?


2) is this CRT really worth it? I mean one negative point for me when I read the review was the fact that it's image is colse to a modern LCD (with emulated scan lines) rather than producing an image with pronounced pixels (which I came to love on older CRTs).

Your opinions and input are greatly appreciated in advance!

[Necronopticous]

This is the thread you're looking for:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=43256

To answer your questions, the monitor takes raw RGB through BNC connectors, so you do not need to convert to VGA. $500 is pretty steep for any 20" CRT monitor, but you're not going to get much better than the 20F1U. The picture quality is absolutely phenomenal.

[fagin]

Personally.... I wouldn't be spending $500 on a CRT.

[c0dehunter]

Thank you for your responses.

I am not sure if I understand this "raw" RGB connectivity feature. My main consoles are real PS1, Neo Geo AES, and a modern PC, with emulators for lots of systems, which utilizing Soft15hz utility, I connect to my PVM or 1084-S CRTs at the moment.

1) Can it be connected to a NTSC PlayStation 1 or a modern PC for emulation then?


2) How much do you think it would be a fair price for this unit then, so I can maybe negotiate with the seller.

Thanks again.

[fagin]

My view is personal.... if you're willing to pay $500 go for it.

The way I look at it is that if it goes bang I won't care if it's cheap. These things are not easy to get repaired, so I always take that stuff into account when buying second hand goods of this nature. Especially when you can get a PVM very cheap in comparison.

At the end of the day this is all very subjective as someone else will say "yeah it's worth every $ of the 500 - buy it now!".

If you're happy with that figure than fine..... which is all that matters.

[c0dehunter]

That is true, and granted it is too expensive. I might negotiate with the seller, but it is true, if they go bad, it it difficult to repair them. Can anyone post an image of it's back with a clear shot of the RGB connector, I can't figure out which one is which.

[fagin]

They are BNC connectors, one for each RGB line and one for sync.

[Ed Oscuro]

You might look at the PVM-20L5 monitors; they seem to be some of the latest monitors Sony produced and notably lighter than others. I have seen some on the 'Bay with 2003 manufacture dates.

[c0dehunter]

They are BNC connectors, one for each RGB line and one for sync.

BNC to VGA I assume? Any particular kind maybe. Would you kindly provide a link for an online vend ore that sells them?

Thanks in advance.

[fagin]

Don't take this the wrong way, but it may help you to do some research on video signals and interconnects prior to blowing $500 on a CRT.

There is no such thing as BNC to VGA. BNC is a connection method and VGA is a video signal.

Look on google for what a BNC connector looks like.

Whatever you connect (assuming you're using RGB via SCART or component), you'll need to find the appropriate leads to do this. What connection methods are you using?

[c0dehunter]

Don't take this the wrong way, but it may help you to do some research on video signals and interconnects prior to blowing $500 on a CRT.

There is no such thing as BNC to VGA. BNC is a connection method and VGA is a video signal.

Look on google for what a BNC connector looks like.

Whatever you connect (assuming you're using RGB via SCART or component), you'll need to find the appropriate leads to do this. What connection methods are you using?

I'm using a custom made RGB to VGA in order to connect my modern PC (for emulation) to either my PVM-2030 or my Commodore 1084-S.

[c0dehunter]

I think I need this cable:

http://www.retrogamingcables.com/sony-p ... r-bnc.html

This vendor is out of stuck however, do you know any other place that would sell these?

[fagin]

You haven't said what your connection method will be apart from mentioning PC?!

Tell me what you're connecting from and we can advise of the cable options.

[c0dehunter]

You haven't said what your connection method will be apart from mentioning PC?!

Tell me what you're connecting from and we can advise of the cable options.

Actually I think I have already mentioned that twice, but apart from a desire to connect my PC to this Sony CRT, I might connect a PlayStation 1 and a Neo Geo CD via SCART cables.

[c0dehunter]

I think I need this cable:

http://www.retrogamingcables.com/sony-p ... r-bnc.html

This vendor is out of stuck however, do you know any other place that would sell these?

Sorry, but can someone confirm if I need the above cable in order to get RGB out of this CRT to my PlayStation 1 and Neo Geo AES? Do I need additional components such stripper/strikers for this purpose? All my systems are NTSC.

Thanks in advance for your comments and inputs.

[fagin]

Yes that cable will work - SCART to BNC are not very common, but are very easy to produce yourself.

[daskrabs]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=43883

I'm selling the adapter you need. Let me know if you want one.

[c0dehunter]

Do 14L5 accept RGB through BNC? I have component cables for both my GameCube and PS2 systems, if I use BNC connectors, can I connect these consoles directly to a 14L5?

Thanks.

[Ed Oscuro]

RGB is not component (YPbPr), so it would have to support component directly.

[kamiboy]

Do 14L5 accept RGB through BNC? I have component cables for both my GameCube and PS2 systems, if I use BNC connectors, can I connect these consoles directly to a 14L5?

Thanks.

Yes, you can. The same input is used for RGB and component. You have to switch between the two in the unit menu, and remember to set the PS2 to YPbPr output in its system menu as well.

By the way, in regards to connecting RGB capable consoles to the unit directly using SCART to BNC cables. I cannot confirm if it works or not as I use a XSELECT-D4 to hook up to my systems via its component out. For some reason I could not get the D4's RGB out to work due to sync issues.

[c0dehunter]

Thanks for your comments, I need to know if 14L5 roughly the same as the PVM-1342Q



or not, since I already own a PVM-1342Q and it is too small for my taste.

[kamiboy]

Logic dictates that a 14" CRT is not that much larger than a 13".

Get a 20" if you have the room or doubts. Bigger is always better when it comes to displays.

[burgerkingdiamond]

I know this thread is old but I have a bvm control unit that im trying to get rid of if youre interested.

[freyesm]

You might look at the PVM-20L5 monitors; they seem to be some of the latest monitors Sony produced and notably lighter than others. I have seen some on the 'Bay with 2003 manufacture dates.

The last almost never is the best, only in very rare occasions (not this one).

Too bad 20" is way smaller for today's standard.

And many wants a little fortune for very undated (and used) monitors.

[Classicgamer]

The issue connecting a pc to some rgb monitors is the seperate sync from the vga port. Some 15khz monitors can only accept composite sync. The Neo Geo is fine for that. A standard scart cable with a scart to BNC male adapter will be fine. These are available on ebay (like every other cable).

For a pc, you want a 15 pin d-sub male to BNC male adapter. Both are RGB signals but the vga out (the 15 pin d-sub) will have seperate h and v sync. If that monitor needs composite sync, this will require a sync combiner circuit. This is far too much trouble for most people to bother with. Instead, buy a used extron rgb interface if ebay. They sell for $5-$100, depending on the model but the cheapest one is fine. These interfaces take the vga output from your computer and output rgb on BNC connectors.

The interfaces can convert seperate sync to composite or the other way around. They can also seperate sync on green so all sources are covered. They clean up the signal too so it will come out perfect on the monitor. This can be important. The signal from my arcade vga was too dirty to get a usable image before I added an interface.

You can also buy BNC connectors at RadioShack so you can cut the end off your existing rgb or component cable and add the BNC connectors. I believe that BVM monitor will accept component through it's BNC connectors too. Radio Shack also sells BNC to phone adapters so you would be able to use your regular component cable.

As for whether it is worth getting a BVM monitor, it depends on what you like. Their dot pitch is finer than an arcade monitor or a CRT tv. Any time you get a finer pitch, those low res games look blocky and the blank scanlines look extra prominent. Some people love seeing a visible line structure. It used to be considered a bad thing which is why there was a market for line doublers etc. Then there are people like me who want games to look like they did in the arcades. If the old arcade monitors had thick black lines across the image, I would have assumed the monitor was broken when I was a kid.

IMHO, for the price of those 20" broadcast monitors, fans of arcade games would be better off spending the money on a multi-sync arcade monitor. Then you can play all games at native resolutions (not just cga ones). Plus, nobody can say that any monitor recreates the look of old arcade machines better than the real thing.

Again IMHO, the one area where those BVM's excell for is being able to read windows text. My arcade vga does a nice job of making Windows text more legible on my 15khz CRT but the extra horizontal resolution on the BVM wouldn't hurt.

[Pasky]

RESURRECTION!

[Taiyaki]

As for whether it is worth getting a BVM monitor, it depends on what you like. Their dot pitch is finer than an arcade monitor or a CRT tv. Any time you get a finer pitch, those low res games look blocky and the blank scanlines look extra prominent. Some people love seeing a visible line structure. It used to be considered a bad thing which is why there was a market for line doublers etc. Then there are people like me who want games to look like they did in the arcades. If the old arcade monitors had thick black lines across the image, I would have assumed the monitor was broken when I was a kid.

IMHO, for the price of those 20" broadcast monitors, fans of arcade games would be better off spending the money on a multi-sync arcade monitor. Then you can play all games at native resolutions (not just cga ones). Plus, nobody can say that any monitor recreates the look of old arcade machines better than the real thing.

That's a very interesting thought. Back then things like blooming, warping and color bleed were also considered flaws but they were part of the package with many even medium grade crt's. From the little experience I've had I have to say BVM's are good if you want all the best picture that crt's can offer with a ton of customization for your different consoles, studio grade color reproduction and probably the best geometry you'll get on a crt (again I can't say this for a fact but it seems to be). If you're playing console games you probably won't be as close to the monitor as you'd be in the arcades so they don't distract as much as you'd think putting your face to the monitor.

Multi sync arcade monitors are cheaper? Aren't they almost impossible to find these days?

[Classicgamer]

No, there are still places that sell new multi-sync arcade monitors (both 25" and 29") for between $435 and $550, around the same range as what people are selling used Sony BVM 20" monitors for.

Many of those BVM and PVM monitors have been used to death and have screen burn. People also complain about receiving ones that have lost their brightness due to age and overuse. Finding one in good condition is getting more difficult. Even mild screen burn is a sign of major use or that the monitor has not been treated well. At this point, you want to find one that will last a long time. If it breaks in a few years, it will be even harder and more expensive to replace.

Given a choice between taking a chance on a used 20" cga only broadcast monitor or buying a new 25" tri sync arcade monitor, my vote is with the arcade monitor but it is just my preference. When you could still pick up a BVM for $100, I would have been more likely to take a chance.

That being said, I am not disputing that you would get a sharper image on broadcast monitor with a finer pixel pitch. This is where taste comes in. Some people want the sharpest possible image, even if that means seeing jagged edges. For me, If I wanted to see blocky graphics, I would have stuck with my HD lcd panel.

Geometry issues are fairly easy to correct on a lot of crt tv's and monitors. The service menu on my 27" Sony trinitron has a number of geometry and other image adjustments which were enough to correct anything noticable. These only need adjusting once. Convergence issues is another matter. The BVM monitors are the cream of the crop and if they have any such issues, they can be fixed if you have the remote. I believe some larger (than 27") sony tv's have convergance adjustments in the service menu but for the rest, it is worth checking to make sure the one you are buying is ok.

The ideal is to have more than one monitor. While older cga games look better without a fine pixel pitch, newer 240p games like street fighter alpha 3 can look a little blurry up close. Those newer games would benefit from a finer pitch. I am not 100% sure on this but I think that some multi-sync monitors have a slightly finer pitch to enable them to cope with all 3 modes. This would mean that older games may look better on a cga only arcade monitor. For most people space and money restrictions force them to narrow it down to one monitor though.

Some people say that it is not worth worrying about medium resolution games because there aren't that many. There are a number of good ones though. I am a fan of the Sega model 2 emulator for Daytona USA and Sega Rally etc. These look terrible on a regular cga monitor. They benefit a lot from a larger screen too. 20" is too small for them. Older medium res games like Narc, look fine on a cga display (in interlaced modes) but they still need hardware stretching.

There are other advantages to broadcast monitors. They have more connection options which makes them easier to use for other consoles and not just arcade games. They aren't open frame so if they aren't going in a cab, they are safer and look nicer. The main problem is that since people started talking about them on forums like this, prices became stupid on popular models. At $500 for a BVM, it has to be worth considering a new tri-sync with a larger screen.

IMO, people looking for broadcast monitors should research some of the other brands. The non-Sony models can still be picked up cheap and I here that some of them are excellent.

[kamiboy]

For what it is worth as a person who has owned quite a few PVM/BVM and other CRT monitors I'd say for my taste the 2530 gave me the best picture that I ever saw.

I now very bitterly regret selling that beauty.

The BVM A20F1U that I have in my possession produces "scanlines" that are way too pronounced. I consider it useless for 240p content. In fact I use my comparatively lowfi B&O MX4200 for 15khz content. The same overly pronounced scanlines holds true for the PVM 20L5 and likely other dual sync SONY monitors capable of both 15 and 32khz.

The 15khz only SONY monitors are the way to go, and do not get caught up in the deceiving web of metrics by going for the monitor with the highest or best this or that. As far 15khz gaming is concerned SONY hit the sweet spot in the 80's with pro monitors such as 2530. Everything after that is needless excess in my opinion.

[Ed Oscuro]

2530 would definitely hit, or get close to, a sweet spot as far as size is concerned. I'm sure it's a heavy beast, but 20" is cutting it a bit close. Big difference between 20" (or 19" depending on the age and region of distribution) and 27"; 25" is going to be closer to 27" than 20". The only thing here is that its TVL spec is rather low - 560TVL. This is naturally correlated with scanline intensity; personally, I love a 600TVL spec very well for fidelity to a typical TV look while still bringing much better clarity and definition to pixels - 560TVL is quite close to that. It's not going to turn in the best results for high resolution or next-gen playing though.

If it was made in a 25" or larger size, the L2 series (i.e. the 20L2) would seem to be a natural replacement for the 2530: More compact and cleaner control boards, improved circuitry, and of course the other advantages that come with being a newer design - all while still supporting 480i just as well as any old set did. patastinky's 2530 HVR saga has been an eye opener of the tolerances (or lack thereof) engineered right into the older sets. Still, if I had a chance to get a 2530, I'd take it.