Keep your 256 onscreen colors !!!

[Domino]

We can talk about art all day, but we can all agree that Genesis FM Sound Chip > SNES PCM Sound Chip.

[stryc9]

Here's the champion on SNES, IMO



They really threw everything they had into Yoshi's Island!

Including an enhancement chip

We can talk about art all day, but we can all agree that Genesis FM Sound Chip > SNES PCM Sound Chip.

Pretty much this forever The Yam may have been more difficult to get good or great results from, but the best stuff, despite sounding more 'electronic', still sounds more like 'real' music because of the sustain, IMO.

I'd mention the superior bass, but we all probably know that already.

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

We can talk about art all day, but we can all agree that Genesis FM Sound Chip > SNES PCM Sound Chip.

Nah

[null1024]

We can talk about art all day, but we can all agree that Genesis FM Sound Chip > SNES PCM Sound Chip.

Depends on what you're looking for.

Genesis audio is clean, freshly synthesized, and has atrocious sample playback in most games [really a sound driver flaw, clean PCM is possible on the Genesis], coupled with being a bit difficult to work with [the OPN2 is a bit of a pain to make patches for].
SNES audio can be anything... provided you can fit it into the tiny 64k of sound RAM [unless you're Tales of Phantasia or Star Ocean, which would swap in more sample data mid-song, which breaks .SPC rips from working]. As a result, the samples have a characteristic brevity to them, combined with that simultaneously charming and irritating SNES reverb. It's muddy and a bit lo-fi. However, it's significantly easier for a composer to work with, and the majority of SNES music is better as a result.

I adore FM [good Genesis music is more impressive than good SNES music, and it's not because it's harder to make good Genesis music, it's more because the sound has a certain quality to it], but sampled audio was a better decision. Still, I do prefer the Genesis sound over the SNES sound, the clarity and synthy nature of FM is more appealing than echo-y and muddy PCM .

[stryc9]

Nah

Try this on for size http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOagvSmosBg

[Domino]

So pretty much it comes down to this:

SNES: Only sounds great if making RPG-type music.

[trap15]

We can talk about art all day, but we can all agree that Genesis FM Sound Chip > SNES PCM Sound Chip.

Nope

OPN2 sounds like shit. I like lots of FM, and OPN/OPNA/OPNB are probably my favorite FM chips. OPN2 just sounds like shit.
SPC requires some finesse, but when pulled off, is incredible. I don't think I'd ever take OPN2 over SPC.

[railslave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOagvSmosBg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB-FMsdT7f0 badomen = jawdropping

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KfPM8xJWgM verytex = jawdropping


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fiV5Sq ... Mna5uUEYr9 master of monsters

they all use the same sounddrivers( as gauntlet 4) Hitoshi Sakimoto, knew how to get the most out the machine (i dont like all megadrive music btw, but when its done properly )!!




oh, and every time this argument comes up

thunderforce iv!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 3uCE&t=646 FTW

[Ji-L87]

Both the SFC & MD sounds great, I'd say. Hard to pick one over the other....
I quite like reverb though so that might have something to do with it....

Both these versions of the Museum Stage from Rockman & Forte sounds good:

SFC

FM Cover

[Ed Oscuro]

Where's the lo-fi reverb in Plok?

There certainly is some good Genesis music but the theoretical limitations people mention don't account for a hill of beans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTbAoNUCA8c

Some ass on YouTube was claiming (maybe in a Theme of Simon / Dance of the Holy Man video, but I can't find it now) that the S-SMP could only use one bps rate and some other insane garbage.

There's great music on both platforms, and "clean" sounding music is certainly possible on both. A lot comes down to the capability of the programmers here. The 64KB limitation on data within the S-SMP, and the requirement for switching out data, might impose some limitation on software design for the rest of the game program (timing of block transfers, right?), but even within that 64KB quite a bit has been done.

The best SNES music is better than the best Genesis music, although yeah that reverb does show up in a lot of tracks - I suppose it's the SNES way of doing fades and portamento.

However, when it comes to the Theme of Simon, the SNES version is actually really uneven, with some amazingly executed parts, but some which sound rather silly. The Genesis version doesn't quite reach the same level of sound, but the intro is amazing and that version is very even throughout.

[louisg]

I'm curious why trap doesn't like OPN2 but likes similar Yamahas. Isn't it basically the same except missing a couple features from the 2151?

You know you can make the Genesis sound clean with an audio mod, and it actually sounds pretty great then. The same goes for visuals. It's a bit tragic that the guts of the stock Genesis let down its video and sound chips so much. Honestly, I think this is why a lot of the graphics must have turned out the way they did even more-so than the 512 color palette-- everything tends to mush and streak together. These aren't problems you see in either SNES or PC Engine :/ 'course those are both lower res AFAIK, so maybe that was just an easier problem to solve or you don't notice it there.

Re: SNES or Genesis: It is easier to make the SNES sound decent, though a lot of games have a terrible General MIDI sound to them that sounded great back in the day, but sounds very corny now. deadtech called the SNES sound chip something like the "digital horn section" because it's like 90% of what comes out of the damn thing. "I can't think of what should go here. Oh, I know! MORE TRUMPETS!"

The games where they did some nice synth work still hold up great, like TMNT4. And that chip is a monster from a technical standpoint. Though I kind of think the low amount of RAM combined with that sort of interpolation might have been a misstep. Grain is, well, grainy, but it covers up stuff like bad loop-points and can trick you into thinking the voices have more definition than they do. SNES tends towards muffled.

[stryc9]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isYhdYNLSWg

from Splatter House 2 and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnbZtLu6y8I from Midnight Resistance.

and regarding TMNT IV, that's one case where the music on the MD version is definitely superior IMO (although the samples used for FX are better on SNES, admittedly).

[Marurun]

If space weren't an issue the PCM audio on the Genesis can actually be pretty insane.

I always considered the sound on the Genesis to be superior for anything that required a lot of pure pitch and intense sound, such as guitars, drums, and high-pitched synth instruments. The SNES was more of that system that had all the beautiful orchestral songs in RPGs or more "realistic" sounding instruments like in Yoshi's Island. Of course they're both good in their own way.

[railslave]

More thunderforce 4 "stand up against myself" 0:46 FTW

You know where you can stick your GM midi sounding strings when this game is playing !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObJVuRTIIS4

the main Megadrive offence of this thread hasnt even rolled out Streets of rage, revenge of shinobi, shadow dancer yet or sonic..(in the musical instruments sense)


shadowdancer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7uDh4Gq ... 91CDD0CE8C they didnt mess about with bass in those days


= the complete package

[trap15]

Can any Mega Drive game match this level of awesome slap-bass?

[null1024]

If space weren't an issue the PCM audio on the Genesis can actually be pretty insane.

http://youtu.be/jQhzkOB4mr0?t=15s
This works on a real Genesis, assuming you have a flashcart that can load the 6MB ROM [so, one that can play Super Street Fighter 2]. PCM background music.


also trap, that slap sample is horrid ;-;

I'm curious why trap doesn't like OPN2 but likes similar Yamahas. Isn't it basically the same except missing a couple features from the 2151?

I'm curious too.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Is the original Sonic considered all that nice looking anymore? I understand it was (in motion) technically impressive in its time (and I like those vector palm tree leaves), but come on.

[Ed Oscuro]

Lol you call the slap bass sample "horrid" and then you post this low-frequency PCM loop? Get outta here.

[trap15]

I'm curious why trap doesn't like OPN2 but likes similar Yamahas. Isn't it basically the same except missing a couple features from the 2151?

OPN2 is like an OPNA, except without everything that makes the OPNA awesome, like SSG, ADPCM, and Rhythm sample channels. It also has a really really shitty DAC method that makes pretty much everything sound awful. Then every patch that pretty much everyone ever made for it is really twangy and has lots of high-pitched extra tones that make my ears hurt, whereas most OPNA and OPN soundtracks avoided this because I guess those developers cared about their music :V

There are exceptions, of course; there are a few Mega Drive soundtracks that I quite enjoy and don't really manifest these problems. But it's far more common and I think it's far more annoying than "oh hey another SPC farting trumpet".

http://youtu.be/jQhzkOB4mr0?t=15s
This works on a real Genesis, assuming you have a flashcart that can load the 6MB ROM [so, one that can play Super Street Fighter 2]. PCM background music.

also trap, that slap sample is horrid ;-;

So wait, low-quality, crackly PCM is better than that slap-bass sample??? I think the sample is pretty good...

[Obiwanshinobi]

"Farting trumpet"? Any example you care to give? That, you know, sounds quite like someone's farts?

[Rob]

It's the very nature of the trumpet.

[Obiwanshinobi]

From the farts and trumpets I hear, they rarely sound the same. A reverse example will do for all I care (farting that sounds like playing trumpet).
Trumpet sounds more metallic to my ears. Playing comb is more fart-like by sound and nature.

[railslave]

Sorry, something slap bass related that cracked me up recently (that first comment)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd2pSLFjOas




forget farting trumpet, the golden age when bass sounded like a ferret trying to get up your trouser leg




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU6_tlO_-iM (tear your face off music)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-XLYjk_ZX4 (so wish this game was a megadrive exclusive)

Snes were a bit late into golden age of video game bass tracks

[trap15]

"Farting trumpet"? Any example you care to give?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9cm1hgZqBE

I rest my case.

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

Snes were a bit late into golden age of video game bass tracks

Really?

[Ed Oscuro]

hey guys snes sounds too much like general midi

...from the late '90s, and OPN is general midi from the late '80s

Also I rather like that Phantasy Star II and Air Buster music, but yeah it's not super impressive technically

fact is there have been plenty of lazy programmers throughout the ages, and we've had a lot more time to think about these things than people at the time, given that 4x as much time has passed since these consoles were released as had passed from even the late releases for each console.

S-SMP seems to have done quite well despite being a custom CPU instead of a more usual Yamaha-like design, and the short tracks really weren't seen as a big shortcoming given this was immediately following the NES/SMS era. Long tracks are possible on the Genesis, sure, but: BATMANS. More "interesting experimental" than "listenable."

Really?

aw yea

[null1024]

Lol you call the slap bass sample "horrid" and then you post this low-frequency PCM loop? Get outta here.

I'm curious why trap doesn't like OPN2 but likes similar Yamahas. Isn't it basically the same except missing a couple features from the 2151?

OPN2 is like an OPNA, except without everything that makes the OPNA awesome, like SSG, ADPCM, and Rhythm sample channels. It also has a really really shitty DAC method that makes pretty much everything sound awful. Then every patch that pretty much everyone ever made for it is really twangy and has lots of high-pitched extra tones that make my ears hurt, whereas most OPNA and OPN soundtracks avoided this because I guess those developers cared about their music :V

There are exceptions, of course; there are a few Mega Drive soundtracks that I quite enjoy and don't really manifest these problems. But it's far more common and I think it's far more annoying than "oh hey another SPC farting trumpet".

http://youtu.be/jQhzkOB4mr0?t=15s
This works on a real Genesis, assuming you have a flashcart that can load the 6MB ROM [so, one that can play Super Street Fighter 2]. PCM background music.

also trap, that slap sample is horrid ;-;

So wait, low-quality, crackly PCM is better than that slap-bass sample??? I think the sample is pretty good...

The lack of those extra features is a bit of a drag in comparision, but you were also talking about straight OPN, which has none of that.

The DAC as in how the YM2512 outputs sound in general? Yeah, that was a silly decision. If you're talking about Genesis sample playback, that's purely due to how most sound drivers were written -- the samples would get interrupted constantly, which ends up with that characteristic choppiness.

The PCM is lo-fi there to keep ROM size down, high quality uncompressed PCM is a killer in that regard. It's really just an example of actual in-game streaming PCM [with FM sfx] use over a pure demo situation like Marurun's link. You could use that for clear SFX and drums.

and yes, I stand by continuing to say that slap sample is quite poor

As for the twangyness, that's because everyone has jacked up TL values in their patches.

Is the original Sonic considered all that nice looking anymore? I understand it was (in motion) technically impressive in its time (and I like those vector palm tree leaves), but come on.

It has an interesting sense of style to it, but it's not so impressive given later Genesis releases. Sonic 2 and 3 come to mind more readily when I think of nice looking Genesis games, especially 3. Hydrocity and Icecap are of particular note.


One thing that everyone should know is the glory that is the Knuckles Chaotix soundtrack. The 32X has 4 PWM channels which are just used for drums, the rest is Genesis YM goodness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-axPO7pwgg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwmWZMp8L8Y

Some of the best FM patch design I've heard.

[trap15]

The lack of those extra features is a bit of a drag in comparision, but you were also talking about straight OPN, which has none of that.

OPN has an SSG too, and has a nice external DAC and the programmers for OPN stuff didn't generally make stupidly aggressive patches that break eardrums ;D

[Ed Oscuro]

MD's problem with regards to sound is mainly that there's generally too little range. S-SMP can load up whatever you want with ease, and that it pretty much forces designers to do that probably helped push even low-budget productions away from doing lazy shit like this

Even the great MD stuff typically is immediately recognizable as coming from that system. You can't really say the same for Plok on SNES.

As for the twangyness, that's because everyone has jacked up TL values in their patches.

The "typical" SNES reverb also isn't inevitable.

[stryc9]

More of the less heard stuff before we break out the big guns:

Pier Solar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LLeWP6llVg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXl1sRdzSmY

And a comparison of Turtles from both systems, same track:

SNES: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu-7jOHLq2E

MD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5WFH3ee ... 787487EC46