Played a 360 today at EBX games today/impressions...

[dave4shmups]

This 360 was hooked up to a Samsung HDTV-I don't know the exact dimensions of it-it certainly wasn't huge-but Call of Duty 2 looked incredible on it, and I loved the game itself! The part I played through is set in the North African campaign of WWII; looked like Morocco. I worked my way through this building with a Nazi flag on it, got to the top and pressed one of the buttons when I was in front of a radio that called in an airstrike-whereupon British warplanes flew over the harbor, and bombed the daylights out of two Nazi cargo ships! And the controller actually felt more comfortable to me then the current XBOX controller.

I also got to play Hexic, a puzzle game from the designer of Tetris. Now, EGM claimed that this game comes built into the menu, but the 360 I played listed it as an XBOX Live arcade game. At any rate, it's great fun! Instead of the puzzle pieces falling down, you start with a screen-full of different colored hexiconical pieces; you can rotate a group of 3 of them at a time to match up colors-very simple and addicting!

I asked the guy at EBX how much a Samsung HDTV, the size of the one they had the 360 hooked up to, would cost. He said probably around $400! That's not bad, not NEARLY as much as I thought something like that would cost! I wonder, though, how much better consoles, even 16-bit ones, that aren't opitimized for HDTV, would look on one.

So at any rate, I'm pretty impressed! There aren't that many XBOX games that I really like, (I traded mine and it's games in for a new Cube at Game Crazy, recenlty.) so if Hexic comes built in with the cheaper package, I may just get one of these when I get a higher paying job. Hardware-wise, I just hope that Microsoft has gone with ONE standard drive this time that will work well with ALL 360 games.

[PaCrappa]

I asked the guy at EBX how much a Samsung HDTV, the size of the one they had the 360 hooked up to, would cost. He said probably around $400! That's not bad, not NEARLY as much as I thought something like that would cost! I wonder, though, how much better consoles, even 16-bit ones, that aren't opitimized for HDTV, would look on one.

HDTVs make lo-res graphics look like dogshit.

Pa

[ArrogantBastard]

Saw it at Wal-Mart... And I thought it was awful.

[superhitachi4]

Yeah, they're supposed to be $399 @ EB. My buddy played it, and said it was pretty impressive as well. A bit off topic here Dave, but I noticed that you're from Denver: How's the legalization of Marijuana working there? Heard it was legalized recently as an alcohol alternative.

[magnum opus]

how was the controller?

cheap stick like whats his name said?
the analog shoulders have a dead zone, etc?

[dave4shmups]

how was the controller?

cheap stick like whats his name said?
the analog shoulders have a dead zone, etc?

I loved the controller; I didn't have any problems with it. Like I said, if Hexic comes with the basic package, and we finally get a release date for After Burner 360, then I might just pick up the basic package.

[dave4shmups]

Yeah, they're supposed to be $399 @ EB. My buddy played it, and said it was pretty impressive as well. A bit off topic here Dave, but I noticed that you're from Denver: How's the legalization of Marijuana working there? Heard it was legalized recently as an alcohol alternative.

It was legalized, but only in the City and County of Denver, not any other cities within the Denver Metro Area. And only in VERY small amounts. I never heard that it was legalized as an alcohol alternative, though. I heard about one minor incident, though I can't recall what it was; but there hasn't been a lot of them-at least., not yet!

@Pa-how could an HDTV make games from old systems look like crap? Do the HDTV's just pixlate the graphics, or something?

[Vexorg]

If the graphics on 360 stuff look blocky, there's a good chance that it's because something is misconfigured on the kiosk resulting in the system defaulting to 480i mode. I got to try out a 360 a couple of weeks ago just as they were starting to get rolled out. There wasn't much to see (the Kameo demo was the only one I really messed with) but the main difference I saw was that the graphics looked a bit clearer. I'll have to go back and try again now that the PGR3 demo is apparently out, but either way, I'm sticking to my original "wait six months" assessment.

[dave4shmups]

If the graphics on 360 stuff look blocky, there's a good chance that it's because something is misconfigured on the kiosk resulting in the system defaulting to 480i mode. I got to try out a 360 a couple of weeks ago just as they were starting to get rolled out. There wasn't much to see (the Kameo demo was the only one I really messed with) but the main difference I saw was that the graphics looked a bit clearer. I'll have to go back and try again now that the PGR3 demo is apparently out, but either way, I'm sticking to my original "wait six months" assessment.

Well, I have to wait due to salary constraints! Kameo looks and plays fantastic, IMO; that's another game demo I got to play. Rare's development quality is still high, which is good to know!

[superhitachi4]

@Pa-how could an HDTV make games from old systems look like crap? Do the HDTV's just pixlate the graphics, or something?

Sometimes when resolution's *too* good, it can expose flaws in graphics that would otherwise be unseen.

[Acid King]

It was legalized, but only in the City and County of Denver, not any other cities within the Denver Metro Area. And only in VERY small amounts. I never heard that it was legalized as an alcohol alternative, though. I heard about one minor incident, though I can't recall what it was; but there hasn't been a lot of them-at least., not yet!

The fact that it is safer than alcohol is one of the reasons the measure was brought up. Basically, it played on the fact that alcohol use is condoned and in some cases encouraged, while pot use is condemned and criminalized even though marijuana is much, much safer than alcohol. It's in the name of the law, "The Alcohol-Marijuana Equalization Initiative". One ounce isn't exactly a "very" small amount either.

[sethsez]

how could an HDTV make games from old systems look like crap? Do the HDTV's just pixlate the graphics, or something?

Clearer isn't always better when it comes to systems that weren't designed with that amount of clarity in mind. It's a bit like listening to MP3s with high-end headphones... after a certain point, the music isn't sounding better, the compression is just sounding worse. You notice details you were never meant to notice.

[Fighter17]

@Pa-how could an HDTV make games from old systems look like crap? Do the HDTV's just pixlate the graphics, or something?

Sometimes when resolution's *too* good, it can expose flaws in graphics that would otherwise be unseen.

What about S-Video? Sometimes I herd that the picture of a game can be too sharp when using S-Video. What about 2-D games with it (like Battle Garegga for the Saturn, etc.)?


Oh yeah, what's the deal with component video cables (I should put this in the hardware section of the forum)?

[PaCrappa]

@Pa-how could an HDTV make games from old systems look like crap? Do the HDTV's just pixlate the graphics, or something?

Sometimes when resolution's *too* good, it can expose flaws in graphics that would otherwise be unseen.

It's more like sometimes graphics were meant to be displayed in the resolution they were created for.

PC Gamers wouldn't play Doom 3 or whatever on a 19" Curtis and Mathis with a convex tube.

Did you not play any of the DC Street Fighter games with the VGA box? They look like shit. Play a SNES on the wickedest HDTV that money can buy (Master from TNL has this TV) and it will look like shit.

It ain't right. Period. If you need alot of jargon and lengthy convoluted brainiac type explanation, maybe Recap can explain for the umpteen billionth time. Or you can do like me, try it and actually pay attention to the difference. It's drastic.

As far as weed legalization in Denver goes, I believe that the initiative was penned by the same guy who created ours up here in Seattle. It has been going swimmingly out here. Arrests are down something like 75% in the last two years. Denver has many other problems to focus on so I'd expect a similar drop down there.

Pa

[superhitachi4]

What about S-Video? Sometimes I herd that the picture of a game can be too sharp when using S-Video. What about 2-D games with it (like Battle Garegga for the Saturn, etc.)?

Oh yeah, what's the deal with component video cables (I should put this in the hardware section of the forum)?

Suppose it's possible to see more flaws through s-video, but it's not very likely. If something were made *really* poorly, you might see more flaws. I've mainly seen a sharper picture. What were you wondering about component cables?

[Neon]

http://atarilabs.com/meat/2000/1201_videoprimer.shtml

Low res graphics look like shit on HDTV's. That's not my opinion, that's a factual fact as opposed to facts that aren't facts.

Once you've seen it really, anything other than RGB looks like shit...Amiga monitors are only ~= $50 shipped these days, put off a game purchase and get RGB.

[Fighter17]

It's like playing Gradius V on a 200 inch projector, ouch. Thanks for the info guys.

[Dylan1CC]

How did the D pad feel? Cuz now it looks like an enlarged version of the old DC VMU pad.

[neorichieb1971]

True HDTV is 16:9, so going from 4:3 to 16:9 is going to distort the picture straight away.

The biggest problem with higher resolution monitors with blocky sprite based games is the line doublers. HDTV has 720 lines but the games only have around 240 per field (because the games are interlaced). So that means for every line of graphic information the game is producing, 2 more lines of that data is copied to the next 2 lines as well with no interlation.

Interlaced monitors hide all that so you only see the graphic data lines, which makes them look much more defined. With RGB the graphic lines of data are defined so well you can count the lines and this is because there is no demodulation (the name given to the process to change RGB to NTSC/PAL). Svideo slightly distorts everything to a haze effect where the lines are not so vibrant, and composite just mish mashes everything and add's a blur effect to the edges of everything.

And then there's scaling. Change anything from its origonal state and jaggies become apparent. Just take any picture on the net and distort it 25% up or down and see the difference.

Scaling needs to be 1-1... RGB is the only true representation of any game because no signal is converted, its raw. For 15khz its RGB, for 31khz its SVGA/VGA.


With 360, the games are written with 720 lines of information. So the games are 1-1 with the monitor/projector and if your using VGA, there is no signal degradation through conversions.

Even component video degrades the signal.

[dave4shmups]

http://atarilabs.com/meat/2000/1201_videoprimer.shtml

Low res graphics look like shit on HDTV's. That's not my opinion, that's a factual fact as opposed to facts that aren't facts.

Once you've seen it really, anything other than RGB looks like shit...Amiga monitors are only ~= $50 shipped these days, put off a game purchase and get RGB.

OK, but what about all the people who play SNES games on their PSP's, via emualtion?

The d-pad on the controller is fine; like I said, it definately feels much more comfortable then even the current XBOX controllers.

At any rate, I'd like to know if Hexic is a 360 exclusive; heck, I'd pay $20 for it! It's that fun! I will try and find out tonight before I'll have to dissasemble our computer, and place it onto a new computer table-I'll be offline for a couple of days, so take care everyone!

[neorichieb1971]

Its a bit harder to see the flaws on a PSP, the screen is so small.

I doubt PSP display is HDTV resolution anyway, I might be wrong.

[Neon]

From http://db.gamefaqs.com/portable/psp/fil ... ware_a.txt :

Screen: 4.3 inch, 16:9 widescreen TFT LCD
480 x 272 pixel (16.77 million colors)

So nope, SNES isn't as good as a real SNES on an RGB monitor imagewise on a PSP, at least fullscreen. Might be decently playable though, I haven't seen it firsthand.

[PaCrappa]

PSP emulators look like shit as well.

Man the stuff that everyone wants to run around faking for free is already so cheap and so available...

I've never understood.

Pa

[PFG 9000]

Playing a SNES on an HDTV would be comparable to playing an SNES emulator on my PC with a hi-res LCD screen...right? So if I can stand games like that, I should be alright buying an HDTV when most of my consoles are a decade old or more...right?

[captain ahar]

speaking of display flaws with DC on a Vga adapter, i've always wanted to see JSR on a setup like this... i hear the graphics start to get really ugly.

[Neon]

Playing a SNES on an HDTV would be comparable to playing an SNES emulator on my PC with a hi-res LCD screen...right? So if I can stand games like that, I should be alright buying an HDTV when most of my consoles are a decade old or more...right?

Depends on where the res is set on the emu. 640x480, or SNES native with a filter will probably look the least-bad (fullscreen wise). HDTV, I think would be a higher res though.

I dunno why you'd want to. Amiga monitors are cheap. What's good to watch in HD anyways? Only shit I ever see in it is football and the discovery channel. Not really worth multiple thousands at this point.

I remember playing my Saturn on my brother's 65 inch HDTV, specifically Metal Slug, the graphics were so horribly mangled. Marco would literally stretch out the area around him.

[Specineff]

speaking of display flaws with DC on a Vga adapter, i've always wanted to see JSR on a setup like this... i hear the graphics start to get really ugly.

Actually no. I played Iky and Cannon Spike on Undamned's damnedly big HDTV, and the damn picture is damned gorgeous. But the thing takes VGA natively, so that's why it looks so damned beautiful. I'll be damned.

[BUHA]

My dad has a 52 inch HDTV. If you don't have good cables for your stuff, ANYTHING will look like shit on it. Even S-Video looks like shit. You need VGA or 3-color component cables in order for it to look good.

I have S-Video for my dreamcast and Ikaruga looks like dogshit on that TV. With the VGA on my PC monitor, it looks incredible. I haven't tried VGA on the TV (I've moved out from my parents') but I'm sure it'd look lightyears ahead of the S-Video cable.

Hooking up ANYTHING with the yellow composite cable into an HDTV looks like shit. I mean it looks really bad. Worse than you think.

Also, a good idea is to change the aspect ratio from 16:9 to 4:3 when playing games that aren't in that aspect ratio (which is most of them). Otherwise, they get stretched out and look worse. You can do this with the remote to the TV, and as far as I know it's a very common feature on widescreen HDTVs.

HDTVs are in a HUGE resolution. It's something like 1920X1084. NES games have a resolution of something like 320X224. So yeah, you can imagine the amount of stretching it's going to do, and you're going to be able to see it very easily.

[captain ahar]

speaking of display flaws with DC on a Vga adapter, i've always wanted to see JSR on a setup like this... i hear the graphics start to get really ugly.

Actually no. I played Iky and Cannon Spike on Undamned's damnedly big HDTV, and the damn picture is damned gorgeous. But the thing takes VGA natively, so that's why it looks so damned beautiful. I'll be damned.

i meant Jet Set Radio in particular. i heard that when its displayed at such a resolution, the models start to fall apart at the seams... literally.

[Specineff]

Haven't seen happening so. Will check later.