MAMEcab vs. the real deal

[Breetai]

I do have, by proxy, access to a New Astro City and a couple OK Babys (all 6-button, but only the Astro has the kick hardness ATM) with MVS, PGM, Atomiswave and of course whatever PCBs and CPS stuff that floats into my happy hands.

Still, it's always nice to have access to basically everything to test on a real arcade. I did a quick search and didn't find a quick answer to this question, although that's not to say that I didn't just miss it. I haven't given these forums a full browse yet to be sure.

Here is the question:

Are there any real noticeable flaws when playing arcade games (focus on shoot 'em ups and run 'n guns) on MAME, FBA, etc., instead of their original mobos?

[rugdoctor]

I notice sometimes the screen tears with mame which you will not get on pcb boards. Get the pcbs if you can afford them and let your adventure of keeping them alive begin

[Ex-Cyber]

Are there any real noticeable flaws when playing arcade games (focus on shoot 'em ups and run 'n guns) on MAME, FBA, etc., instead of their original mobos?

That depends heavily on the specific games and on your standards for "real" and/or "noticeable". In general, from memory:

Lots of games have minor inaccuracies in slowdown due to bus arbitration and wait state timings not being emulated properly.

There are still a few lingering sprite/background priority glitches in some drivers (although some priority glitches are just bugs in the game).

Most video cards/drivers are unable to precisely replicate the original video dimensions/timings, so some games will look slightly stretched/compressed. For the same reasons, you can't necessarily get both 100% accurate speed and one-for-one frame display (e.g. a game natively runs at 58 Hz but your video card only supports 60 Hz modes). There are reportedly ways around some of this but they involve more than just tweaking MAME settings (e.g. video BIOS hacking, making custom modes with Powerstrip).

Some protected games have quirks because the protection MCU is simulated instead of dumped. The specific quirks can be almost anything, depending on how the protection works for that particular game.

[lettuce]

I notice sometimes the screen tears with mame which you will not get on pcb boards. Get the pcbs if you can afford them and let your adventure of keeping them alive begin

A Mame version called, GroovyMAME eradicates all screen tear, scroll judder and vastly improves upon inaccurate display timings. If you are going to decide to go with mane over a pcb this is defo the version to get! Look over on the BYOAC forum for the dedicated GroovyMAME sub forum!

[Breetai]

I notice sometimes the screen tears with mame which you will not get on pcb boards. Get the pcbs if you can afford them and let your adventure of keeping them alive begin

A Mame version called, GroovyMAME eradicates all screen tear, scroll judder and vastly improves upon inaccurate display timings. If you are going to decide to go with mane over a pcb this is defo the version to get! Look over on the BYOAC forum for the dedicated GroovyMAME sub forum!

Hmmm, interesting. I'm not near getting my own cab(s) yet (although I have a very good job interview coming up soon which would speed this process up), but I do have a couple friends with cabs (described a bit in the first post).

I'll check out GroovyMAME for sure.

My main issue is noticeable graphical problems and especially anything that affects button/joystick response.

I have seen what a pain it is to switch PCBs and other boards (MVS, AW, PCM, etc.) in and out of a cab. Having one dedicated MVS cab and another MAME one might be a nice in-between option.

While I'm at it, how is Atomiswave emulation? Dolphin Blue f'n rocks. I've only played it on an actual AW.

[leonk]

I use groovymame with modified ATI drivers on my NAC. It's amazing for the older stuff (non-3D 15khz mode only) I think for the most part, they got all the video issues finally sorted out; performance on newer games, that's a different story.

For the newer stuff, I'll be looking to play the console ports in addition to MAME. It might not be 100% arcade PCB perfect (console) but for me it's better than not playing it at all!

[matrigs]

is there any lag fix in groovymame ?

[leonk]

is there any lag fix in groovymame ?

Most lag is introduced due to insufficient PC hardware in playing the game. Some 3D games will still lag on the most modern hardware. On the other hand, older hardware (80's and early to mid-90's don't exhibit any lag on modern hardware)

[AeroCityMayor]

IMVHO neither option is better than the other!

Playing MAME and playing the real hardware is sometimes different - that's all. This difference is very often overstated as many of the games emulated in MAME are just as playable and enjoyable as their original counterparts.

Also, don't be fooled into thinking that games on the original hardware are perfect: many are far from it!!! Remember also the "challenge" you will face in keeping those bad boys alive

If you do go for the MAME option, select the fastest C2D you can afford; use a 64bit O/S and MAME build; use a CRT monitor and a PS/2 keyboard connection as this combination will eliminate a very large percentage of the "lag" issues griped about. Graphics card specs for MAME at the moment are a little "fluid" so you may wish to research that a little more but it should still not cost a fortune.

I own both BTW, and I'm very happy with them!

HTH

Cheers,

Ralph.

[shmuppyLove]

While I'm at it, how is Atomiswave emulation? Dolphin Blue f'n rocks. I've only played it on an actual AW.

It's not bad, provided you have some beefy hardware. Stability is the biggest issue for me -- Demul and Dolphin (GC/Wii emulator) crash a lot on me, but aside from that do run quite well.

Unless you've already got a good high-end PC, I'd say it's cheaper to get a Naomi or Atomiswave than to build a new machine that can emulate them well.

[matrigs]

is there any lag fix in groovymame ?

Most lag is introduced due to insufficient PC hardware in playing the game. Some 3D games will still lag on the most modern hardware. On the other hand, older hardware (80's and early to mid-90's don't exhibit any lag on modern hardware)

not true.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=26394

[Ed Oscuro]

I notice sometimes the screen tears with mame which you will not get on pcb boards. Get the pcbs if you can afford them and let your adventure of keeping them alive begin

A Mame version called, GroovyMAME eradicates all screen tear, scroll judder and vastly improves upon inaccurate display timings. If you are going to decide to go with mane over a pcb this is defo the version to get! Look over on the BYOAC forum for the dedicated GroovyMAME sub forum!

GroovyMAME is optimized for output to arcade monitors, yes? Is it merely selecting the right display timing for the monitor?

If you do go for the MAME option, select the fastest C2D you can afford; use a 64bit O/S and MAME build;

Better yet, get a Core i7 or possibly a Core i5 (not sure which will give the best single-threaded performance, which is necessary for MAME). Newer AMDs are an option as well. If you are sticking it in a cabinet, it needs to be well ventilated, but more clocks will give you more performance in 3D games. Most all 2D games run well over 100% on C2Ds and newer, although there are some exceptions like Gradius IV which is not quite rock-steady on a 2.4GHz Core i7.

is there any lag fix in groovymame ?

Most lag is introduced due to insufficient PC hardware in playing the game. Some 3D games will still lag on the most modern hardware. On the other hand, older hardware (80's and early to mid-90's don't exhibit any lag on modern hardware)

not true.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=26394

The latest posts in that thread give the best impression of what's going on. What leonk is saying isn't accurate to the situation of regularly encountered lag, but it is true that almost all PC hardware and software (regardless of the spec) can add a noticable delay around the emulated system doing its thing. But it is clear that if the system is laggy, you can't really blame MAME for having correct input lag in the emulated system...the added lag is unfortunate but to overcome it would require altering the behavior of the emulated game. The most reasonable way to improve the situation is to reduce the lag introduced by the computer running the emulated system. Shmupmame does get away, in some situations, by reducing lag sources that are not useful in most situations, but arguably it's also changing how some games play (what's the chances that input lag added by any two given systems running Shmupmame will be identical, anyway?).

[Calamity]

Hi,

I'm the person who's currently in charge of GroovyMAME. I have been reading about the input lag related topics in this forum since log, though I have never posted before.

I find input lag to be a highly elusive issue, probably the users of this forum are the best to judge this stuff.

GroovyMAME is optimized for output to arcade monitors, yes? Is it merely selecting the right display timing for the monitor?

GroovyMAME *generates* the right display timings automatically provided you use an ATI card. But enabling the proper timings is just half of the problem. The v-sync implementation and the throttling mechanism in MAME need to be slightly modified in order to ensure absolutely smooth scrolling and sound synchronization.

On the other hand, we have the input lag issue. Since long I have read that any sort of v-sync causes input lag to some extent. Because of this, it is widely recommended to disable v-sync or triplebuffering as a way to reduce input lag. However, once you get used to properly v-synced video, you simply can't go back and live with the artifacts, it just kills the illusion of emulation altogether.

So I tried to understand why v-sync shoud introduce input lag at all. And specially, why should it add more lag than using -throttle alone ???. After all, they're basically just two different implementations of a wait loop to keep the frame rate in place. Most articles I've read assume the modern 3D-game scenario, where frame rates are not constant. In emulation, the frame rate is a known value.

To keep short, I found what could be the possible cause of input lag related to v-sync in MAME. Basically, MAME is locked to input messages from the OS for the period of time which takes a new frame to be drawn to the screen. This is because the draw operation is called from the message loop where the input messages are supposed to be processed too. Obviously, if v-sync is enabled, the draw operation won't return until the vblank happens, consuming most of the time in the frame and keeping the message loop locked.

The multithreading implementation in MAME makes things even worse as it can actually keep the emulation thread unaware of input data during several frames, if the video card's refresh is lower than the game's refresh.

What I made for GroovyMAME is to create a third thread of execution to deal with video updates (draw + wait for v-sync), so the window thread is always free to process input messages as soon as they come. This *seems* to keep input lag as low as what you get with -throttle alone.

Of course you can't expect a reduction of the inherent frames of lag due to sprite buffering and stuff, but at least it seems to improve things on the specific lag caused by v-sync.

[AeroCityMayor]

...
Better yet, get a Core i7 or possibly a Core i5 (not sure which will give the best single-threaded performance, which is necessary for MAME).

Expensive solution - the E8700 would be a better option and cheaper.

Newer AMDs are an option as well.

Not for MAME matey!

HTH

Cheers,

Ralph.

[Ex_Mosquito]

I'd be interested in the results of the GroovyMame lagg test. I always assumed that with the CRT_Emudrivers, Groovymame had zero lagg. It certainly feels like it. I have the original hardware + Groovymame on my AstroCity cab and if play Groovymame and then swap over to the original hardware I honestly can't feel ANY difference, and I am VERY VERY fussy about lagg on my games. In bad examples of emulation (old Xbox Mame+emulators, console arcade compilations etc..) I can feel lagg instantly even when friends claim there isn't any lagg. I realise this is far from scientific, but using Groovymame+CRT_Emudrivers on an arcade CRT is leagues ahead of the results I get from playing generic Mame on a pc monitor.

Someone do the test!

[trap15]

MAME (like virtually every emulator in existence) will always have at least one frame over the original hardware, unless some terrible hacks that break faithful emulation are introduced (e.g., removing the sprite buffer).

[nasty_wolverine]

It was a much contested issue, if the lag of 1-2 frames were noticeable or not. the discussion then divulged into something ugly.

For example, there is a 1 frame lag in mame for dodonpachi (most of cave games), about 3 frames lag in most raizing games. Some people never feel the difference, some people do. I definitely feel the difference caused by the lag in DOJ in mame vs ps2, i havent tried a cab version. the lag makes garegga almost unplayable for me, but i am not sure if the original arcade also had the delay.

Bottom line is, get a lagless mame, some games are close to 99% accurately emulated, some are not. for the real experience stick to arcade boards, if you cant afford that then stick to ports, and if you really cant afford that too get it on mame.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I think the ideal situation for most people is to have a cab with a 2-in-1 jamma switcher input board where you have mame going into 1 slot and jamma boards going into the other and have the cab be one that can rotate the monitor from hori to vert. That or have 2 cabs set up this way, 1 hori and 1 vert. pcbs take up a lot of money and space and are much more of a hassle when switching games and fixing when they break. It's worth it for the games you really love but for most stuff in mame that you just want to play every once in a while, I'll stick with mame.

Input lag can be annoying but the only times it has really ruined games for me is when it was heavily present on pcbs like Bakraid. A lot of it comes down to money though. If you can afford to buy the pcb of every shooting game you want to play then go for it. It's a fun experience and for some stuff, the emulation is likely to be way off for years or not present at all. Also with shooting games, as far as playing them competitively, I think just the idea that mame adds an extra frame of input lag might irritate me. I probably wouldn't enter a contest if I had to use emulation. I still think mame needs to be hooked up too though either way so you could try out games with real controls before buying boards, even if not used for much else. The dual boot option is the best.

[Crafty+Mech]

I prefer the real hardware, but for the really pricey games I'd rather play them in Mame and save $.

What I don't like about MAME has nothing to with the software itself, but the horrid cabinet creations it begets.

[Ex_Mosquito]

I prefer the real hardware, but for the really pricey games I'd rather play them in Mame and save $.

What I don't like about MAME has nothing to with the software itself, but the horrid cabinet creations it begets.

It doesn't always have to be a shambling mess. Here's my Mame set-up. It could be tidier inside but I can't be arsed, I just wanna play the games
http://youtu.be/BwDJtjrwKHI


I never realised Groovymame+CRT_Emudrivers gave 1 frame of lagg?! I can 1cc the pcb's I have and I can perform exactly the same on Groovymame on my cab with no detectable sacrifice in input delay. Is it even possible for a human to feel 1/60th of a second in actual gameplay? Let alone it being a significant hurdle. I can understand when people moan about Mame on an LCD, it's bloody awful. When I play Mame on my chipped Xbox1 it drives me nuts, that's why I never play it. But GroovyMame+CRT_Emudrivers on a proper arcade CRT is like a different world in comparison. It's almost feels too good to be true/free!

[Crafty+Mech]

It doesn't always have to be a shambling mess. Here's my Mame set-up. It could be tidier inside but I can't be arsed, I just wanna play the games
http://youtu.be/BwDJtjrwKHI

Your setup is how I like MAME cabs. You have repurposed an existing cabinet (and an awesome one at that, I need one!) and stuck with a basic set of controls. What makes me cringe is when you see a control panel stuffed with trackballs, button porn, and a couple flight sticks thrown in for good measure. I'm more about the games versus the authenticity as well, but I guess nostalgia does cause me to lean a bit more towards the purist side.

[nasty_wolverine]

I never realised Groovymame+CRT_Emudrivers gave 1 frame of lagg?! I can 1cc the pcb's I have and I can perform exactly the same on Groovymame on my cab with no detectable sacrifice in input delay. Is it even possible for a human to feel 1/60th of a second in actual gameplay? Let alone it being a significant hurdle. I can understand when people moan about Mame on an LCD, it's bloody awful. When I play Mame on my chipped Xbox1 it drives me nuts, that's why I never play it. But GroovyMame+CRT_Emudrivers on a proper arcade CRT is like a different world in comparison. It's almost feels too good to be true/free!

As i said, it depends on how sensitive you are to lag. I can actually feel the lag, even if its 1 frame, makes a ton of difference when i play DOJ, ketsui and dodonpachi. But to some people, it doesnt make any difference and can actually score very well. It just comes down to how much that one frame of lag affects you. As far as i know, Prometheus used to play on normal mame before and used to do extremely well, but when he got his hands on lagless shmupmame, according to him it was a game changer.

I really want to compare how raizing games feel in terms of lag for mame vs pcb. But i probably wont get the opportunity ever.

[lettuce]

I never realised Groovymame+CRT_Emudrivers gave 1 frame of lagg?! I can 1cc the pcb's I have and I can perform exactly the same on Groovymame on my cab with no detectable sacrifice in input delay. Is it even possible for a human to feel 1/60th of a second in actual gameplay? Let alone it being a significant hurdle. I can understand when people moan about Mame on an LCD, it's bloody awful. When I play Mame on my chipped Xbox1 it drives me nuts, that's why I never play it. But GroovyMame+CRT_Emudrivers on a proper arcade CRT is like a different world in comparison. It's almost feels too good to be true/free!

As i said, it depends on how sensitive you are to lag. I can actually feel the lag, even if its 1 frame, makes a ton of difference when i play DOJ, ketsui and dodonpachi. But to some people, it doesnt make any difference and can actually score very well. It just comes down to how much that one frame of lag affects you. As far as i know, Prometheus used to play on normal mame before and used to do extremely well, but when he got his hands on lagless shmupmame, according to him it was a game changer.

I really want to compare how raizing games feel in terms of lag for mame vs pcb. But i probably wont get the opportunity ever.

U must be some sort of super human then if you can notice 1 frame of lag, especially when the majority of arcade games run around 60fps...thats 60 frames in a second and you can tell and notice the difference between 59 and 60fps

[trap15]

That's not how lag works. Lag is the time between when you input something and the time your action's results appear on screen. Emulation will almost invariably (as I said, there are hacks around it) add 1 frame to the base lag of the system being run on. Combining your system's lag (OS overhead and such) and monitor lag, and the game lag and the emulation lag is certainly noticeable to those who really need to notice (superplayers and some others), since you'll almost always get at least 2 extra frames from all that overhead on a normal modern PC running a normal OS. This is usually subconsciously noticeable to those sensitive to timing. Generally one can adapt without much problem, but when you start getting really high amounts of lag, it becomes very consciously noticeable.

[Ex_Mosquito]

That's not how lag works. Lag is the time between when you input something and the time your action's results appear on screen. Emulation will almost invariably (as I said, there are hacks around it) add 1 frame to the base lag of the system being run on. Combining your system's lag (OS overhead and such) and monitor lag, and the game lag and the emulation lag is certainly noticeable to those who really need to notice (superplayers and some others), since you'll almost always get at least 2 extra frames from all that overhead on a normal modern PC running a normal OS. This is usually subconsciously noticeable to those sensitive to timing. Generally one can adapt without much problem, but when you start getting really high amounts of lag, it becomes very consciously noticeable.

You really need to try GroovyMame+CRT_Emudrivers on a proper CRT, I swear you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I have the pcb's of R-Type, Shinobi and Daimakaimura and I can 1-life all of them ( http://www.youtube.com/user/exmosquito ) I can perform the same on Groovymame EXACTLY the same with no noticeable input lagg. If I walked out of the room and you swapped the pcb for Groovymame I couldn't tell. In contrast, playing generic Mame on my laptop with a USB pad the lagg is noticeably HUGE in comparison. Groovymame+CRT_Emudriver on an arcade CRT is a totally different beast from the Mame that I was used to before.

[trap15]

Whether you can feel it and whether it exists are different, albeit related.
As I said, it can exist and you can subconsciously feel it (and thus adjust subconsciously) without ever being aware of it.

[jdubs]

Whether you can feel it and whether it exists are different, albeit related.
As I said, it can exist and you can subconsciously feel it (and thus adjust subconsciously) without ever being aware of it.

Sooooo...what are your thoughts on GroovyMAME?

-Jim

[Crafty+Mech]

That's not how lag works. Lag is the time between when you input something and the time your action's results appear on screen. Emulation will almost invariably (as I said, there are hacks around it) add 1 frame to the base lag of the system being run on. Combining your system's lag (OS overhead and such) and monitor lag, and the game lag and the emulation lag is certainly noticeable to those who really need to notice (superplayers and some others), since you'll almost always get at least 2 extra frames from all that overhead on a normal modern PC running a normal OS. This is usually subconsciously noticeable to those sensitive to timing. Generally one can adapt without much problem, but when you start getting really high amounts of lag, it becomes very consciously noticeable.

You really need to try GroovyMame+CRT_Emudrivers on a proper CRT, I swear you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I have the pcb's of R-Type, Shinobi and Daimakaimura and I can 1-life all of them ( http://www.youtube.com/user/exmosquito ) I can perform the same on Groovymame EXACTLY the same with no noticeable input lagg. If I walked out of the room and you swapped the pcb for Groovymame I couldn't tell. In contrast, playing generic Mame on my laptop with a USB pad the lagg is noticeably HUGE in comparison. Groovymame+CRT_Emudriver on an arcade CRT is a totally different beast from the Mame that I was used to before.

Your run on Ghouls & Ghosts was epic, that game probably took a few years off my life with how infuriating it sometimes was. When you died at the final boss I felt your pain, damn those freaking lasers!

[lettuce]

That's not how lag works. Lag is the time between when you input something and the time your action's results appear on screen. Emulation will almost invariably (as I said, there are hacks around it) add 1 frame to the base lag of the system being run on. Combining your system's lag (OS overhead and such) and monitor lag, and the game lag and the emulation lag is certainly noticeable to those who really need to notice (superplayers and some others), since you'll almost always get at least 2 extra frames from all that overhead on a normal modern PC running a normal OS. This is usually subconsciously noticeable to those sensitive to timing. Generally one can adapt without much problem, but when you start getting really high amounts of lag, it becomes very consciously noticeable.

You really need to try GroovyMame+CRT_Emudrivers on a proper CRT, I swear you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I have the pcb's of R-Type, Shinobi and Daimakaimura and I can 1-life all of them ( http://www.youtube.com/user/exmosquito ) I can perform the same on Groovymame EXACTLY the same with no noticeable input lagg. If I walked out of the room and you swapped the pcb for Groovymame I couldn't tell. In contrast, playing generic Mame on my laptop with a USB pad the lagg is noticeably HUGE in comparison. Groovymame+CRT_Emudriver on an arcade CRT is a totally different beast from the Mame that I was used to before.

Do you use an i-PAC? if so a PS/2 version or USB...or is there no difference for lag?

[trap15]

USB has inherent lag due to being a poll-based protocol. However, depending on the operating system's handling of PS/2, that could be just as laggy.
It probably isn't more than a couple ms, but it might be the deciding factor between 1 frame and 2, so it's worth not ruling out.