My Mushi Futari is not region free...

[Nasirosuchus]

Basically, you justify your actions by saying there's no point in wasting time thinking about whether or not something is right or wrong if it can't be measured purely via quantitative means. Very convenient way to live.

No. If someone thinks that it's wrong to acquire digital media via P2P or some other unauthorized source, then that's their choice. I'm not bashing anyone for not doing it because of their views or calling them idiots who are missing out on all of the free stuff.

If it's not causing any damage to the copyright holder and the worst thing about it is that some people find it morally wrong, then I don't see what the big deal is.

There are probably several things that you do that others consider to be morally wrong. Does that make you feel guilty about any of it?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I want to make a website but I don't know how. Oh hey look, there's companies that will offer the service for a fee and make me a website! But fuck that shit, look, I can steal their layout and just copy 'n paste my stuff into their template and make my own! Then I can enjoy their hard work without paying for it. It's not like it's causing any damage to them, I don't see what the big deal is. I don't see any evidence of it hurting anyone just because I'm taking advantage of their work without paying for it, so it's okay to me!

I don't see what the big deal is.

I imagine it would be tough, what with your head apparently being several meters up your ass.

[Nasirosuchus]

This is why I don't think there's really any point in talking about morality because people simply have different ideas of what's right and wrong.

"I've decided I'm doing nothing wrong therefore I'm not".

Selfish /and/ entitled. People like you are why comapnies are so DRM crazy. Good job.

It's not selfish or entitled, it's looking at things objectively. Something isn't wrong just because some people think that it is. When there is measurable and objective evidence that shows that it does harm, then I will reconsider. Until then, no. You can't just push your morals onto other people and shun them because they don't see it your way.

Companies know full and well that P2P file sharing and other unauthorized means of distribution don't cost them a cent. They are DRM crazy because they want to control the market. The funny thing is, DRM and demonizing their fans as thieving and pirating ingrates has done far more to harm them than P2P ever could. The people whom it hurt the most were the ones who actually bought it and many of them ended up turning to P2P/unauthorized distribution because they didn't have to deal with it.

[dcharlieJP]

On the other hand, when we look at things that can be objectively measured such as whether or not it causes financial or economic harm, there isn't any evidence showing that it does. We can also see that it's brought exposure which is good for any business.

whilst there's hard evidence for the later point in the -music- industry, i've yet to see the same evidence produced for the gaming industry.

If it's not causing any damage to the copyright holder

well tying this up to the point above, the only advantage of the "exposure" angle is if the pirated games are converted into hard sales. Someone could easily try out Mushi Futari but then go the other way and say "oh, i can play these in Mame? Sweet" or that the person buys the next game from that particular company. I'm not sure we'd see a great conversion rate on shmups to be perfectly honest - especially as there are other barriers to entry like importing and region locks that piracy also has a hand in circumventing a good deal of the time.

[Nasirosuchus]

I want to make a website but I don't know how. Oh hey look, there's companies that will offer the service for a fee and make me a website! But fuck that shit, look, I can steal their layout and just copy 'n paste my stuff into their template and make my own! Then I can enjoy their hard work without paying for it. It's not like it's causing any damage to them, I don't see what the big deal is.

You stole it as in you now have it and they no longer do? You see, that would be causing actual damages that we can measure objectively.

I imagine it would be, what with your head apparently being several meters up your ass.

I'm not the one trying to push my morals onto other people and demonizing them because they don't see it my way.

You also didn't answer my question. Do you base what you do on what others think is right and wrong? Does what you believe automatically change based on the moral status quo?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

You stole it as in you now have it and they no longer do?

Ah, so it's ignorance that's your biggest mental defect. No, that's not how website theft works. It's more akin to copying the copyrighted layout and graphics and using them as your own without giving any sort of credit to the designer who made the template in the first place.

I.E. using something someone else made commercially without giving them any financial compensation for it.

[system11]

You can't just push your morals onto other people and shun them because they don't see it your way.

Actually you can, that's exactly how organised society functions.

The part that still irritates the hell out of me, is that you don't give a damn about the rights of the artist/creator. They created it, they get to decide who enjoys it and how much if anything it should cost. It's not your content, you don't get to decide. You can wave the victimless crime banner around all you like, but at the end of the day you're just too weak to vote with your wallet and go without if you don't think the price is reasonable.

[Nasirosuchus]

whilst there's hard evidence for the later point in the -music- industry, i've yet to see the same evidence produced for the gaming industry.

We've seen sales increase dramatically over the last few generations with P2P filesharing becoming more and more prominent. At the very least, this shows that it's not causing any harm.

well tying this up to the point above, the only advantage of the "exposure" angle is if the pirated games are converted into hard sales. Someone could easily try out Mushi Futari but then go the other way and say "oh, i can play these in Mame? Sweet" or that the person buys the next game from that particular company. I'm not sure we'd see a great conversion rate on shmups to be perfectly honest - especially as there are other barriers to entry like importing and region locks that piracy also has a hand in circumventing a good deal of the time.

That's true, but without the exposure of it being available via P2P, a great deal of those people would have never even heard of the game and hence wouldn't have bought it in that case, either. In the case of shmups, many of which are never released outside of Japan, someone is much more likely to spend hundreds of dollars on a Japanese system and games that they can actually play than they are on a game that they've never heard of because it has absolutely no advertising or exposure in their area.

[Nasirosuchus]

You stole it as in you now have it and they no longer do?

Ah, so it's ignorance that's your biggest mental defect. No, that's not how website theft works. It's more akin to copying the copyrighted layout and graphics.

That's not theft. It's copyright infringement. He's using the terms "theft" and "stealing" out of context.

[Nana]

...Are you trying to tell BareKnuckleRoo what he himself posted?

Anyway, I really don't like you.

How about the PSP as an example of piracy hurting the industry? High hardware sales, pathetic software sales. As a bit of anecdotal evidence, my entire group of friends back closer to the PSP's release, it was easily our most-played handheld, and yet none of us actually ever bought any games for it back then, since we just downloaded them all. Hell, some of us got the PSP just BECAUSE you could pirate anything (as many other people did and do - go look at 4chan and ask them for their opinion on the PSP). Acknowledged by Sony to the point of abandoning publishing any more games for it, but making it so that you can install cfw without any exploits required on newer firmwares.

Doesn't that say something?

[Nasirosuchus]

Actually you can, that's exactly how organised society functions.

Organized society functions (properly) by implementing things that actually work for the welfare of the citizens and the said society. There just happens to be an overlap at times between this and what's considered morally right by the status quo.

The part that still irritates the hell out of me, is that you don't give a damn about the rights of the artist/creator. They created it, they get to decide who enjoys it and how much if anything it should cost. It's not your content, you don't get to decide. You can wave the victimless crime banner around all you like, but at the end of the day you're just too weak to vote with your wallet and go without if you don't think the price is reasonable.

They have the right to profit from their work. There is no evidence that playing games, listening to music, watching movies, or using software that you didn't pay for impedes their ability to profit. Like I said, at worst, it has no effect. At best, it helps them.

The artist developers are indeed able to charge whatever they want and to implement restrictions like anti-copying technology; however, they also have to deal with the consequences of charging more than what people are willing to pay and implementing things like DRM. Maybe in your utopia, people just wouldn't buy it, but we don't live in your utopia.

[Grumpius]

whilst there's hard evidence for the later point in the -music- industry, i've yet to see the same evidence produced for the gaming industry.

We've seen sales increase dramatically over the last few generations with P2P filesharing becoming more and more prominent. At the very least, this shows that it's not causing any harm.

Not entirely sure it's accurate to make that correlation, sure P2P has increased tenfold but with more people using the internet, rise of digital distribution and ease of ordering products online, it's no wonder why sales of all media have increased in the last decade.
Exposure would give sales a nudge if people then buy the product or inform a friend who would also buy it. If none buy it then a fuck load of good that exposure did.

[Nasirosuchus]

...Are you trying to tell BareKnuckleRoo what he himself posted?

I'm not trying to tell him anything. I AM telling him.

Anyway I really don't like you.

Take a number.

How about the PSP as an example of piracy hurting the industry? High hardware sales, pathetic software sales. As a bit of anecdotal evidence, my entire group of friends back closer to the PSP's release, it was easily our most-played handheld, and yet none of us actually ever bought any games for it back then, since we just downloaded them all. Hell, some of us got the PSP just BECAUSE you could pirate anything (as many other people did and do - go look at 4chan and ask them for their opinion on the PSP). Acknowledged by Sony to the point of abandoning publishing any more games for it, but making it so that you can install cfw without any exploits required on newer firmwares.

Doesn't that say something?

The PSP had low software sales because it's library just wasn't all that great especially when compared to that of the DS.

To address your anecdotal evidence, yes, many people did buy the PSP because of all the exploits and hacks, but as someone who has been modding consoles for a decade, I can tell you that it's far easier and cheaper to play roms for free on the DS than it is on the PSP. Didn't seem to hinder the former's software sales all that much.

In regards to whether or not it says something, yes it does. It says that without all of the hacks, exploits, and free games, the hardware sales would have been low just like the software sales were. It doesn't mean that people would have gone out and bought all of those games especially when they weren't that good to begin with.

[Nasirosuchus]

Not entirely sure it's accurate to make that correlation, sure P2P has increased tenfold but with more people using the internet, rise of digital distribution and ease of ordering products online, it's no wonder why sales of all media have increased in the last decade.
Exposure would give sales a nudge if people then buy the product or inform a friend who would also buy it. If none buy it then a fuck load of good that exposure did.

People do buy the product and inform people who also go out and buy it. That's exactly what happens when more people are exposed to what you're selling.

[Grumpius]

People do buy the product and inform people who also go out and buy it. That's exactly what happens when more people are exposed to what you're selling.

Do you buy anything made by the companies you pirate from? If yes then why is the forum having this 3 page arguement?

[MSZ]

People do buy the product and inform people who also go out and buy it. That's exactly what happens when more people are exposed to what you're selling.

Do you buy anything made by the companies you pirate from? If yes then why is the forum having this 3 page arguement?

This isn't argument, it is called "feeding a troll".

Like he said in his last post, he has been modding console for a decade. Don't you guys realize where the hell does he come from?

[system11]

I'm pondering restricting his access to my content, as is my right as the bandwidth owner.

[Nasirosuchus]

Do you buy anything made by the companies you pirate from? If yes then why is the forum having this 3 page arguement?

Yes. I've bought hundreds of video games, CD's, DVD's, software titles, and digital downloads.

[Grumpius]

Do you buy anything made by the companies you pirate from? If yes then why is the forum having this 3 page arguement?

Yes. I've bought hundreds of video games, CD's, DVD's, software titles, and digital downloads.

Then fine, this shitstorm can end.

[system11]

Locking due to complaints. I think that's enough fun for now.