Can people change?

[dave4shmups]

Anyone can change through the grace of God; freeley offered by His Son; age does not matter as far as that's concerned.

[The n00b]

Anyone can change through the grace of God; freeley offered by His Son; age does not matter as far as that's concerned.

God seemed to change too. He was a hardass in the old testament and now he's all laid back. What can change the nature of a god?

[Valgar]

Chocolate Milk and Animal Crackers?

[dave4shmups]

Anyone can change through the grace of God; freeley offered by His Son; age does not matter as far as that's concerned.

God seemed to change too. He was a hardass in the old testament and now he's all laid back. What can change the nature of a god?

God has a sense of justice as well as a sense of grace. And His justice shows up just as much in the New Testament, if you read it. Calling Him a "hardass" in the Old Testament is a misunderstanding-did He even have to alow humanity to live, after the first man and woman sinned against Him? Could he not have simply come up with a new species? But he loved mankind enough to allow us to live on, that we might seek Him; many in the Old Testament did and were saved. David, for example, committed adultry and then had the husband of the woman purposely put on the front lines in a major battle just to get him killed. And YET, God forgave these sins of David, although he still had to face up to the consequences on earth, and called David a man after his own heart.

Those whom God had put to death in the Old Testament were those, who, no matter how many times He gave them a chance to change, refused. Pharoh refused after his own nation was stricken with many plagues, and it cost him his life-is that unreasonable?

[Icarus]

So where is He now, when Man continues to commit sin against Him, and often in His name, left right and centre?

[dave4shmups]

So where is He now, when Man continues to commit sin against Him, and often in His name, left right and centre?

Right where He's always been-with His arms wide open; willing to accept anyone who will accept Him.

[Acid King]

So where is He now, when Man continues to commit sin against Him, and often in His name, left right and centre?

Right where He's always been-with His arms wide open; willing to accept anyone who will accept Him.

...but because he is all knowing, he knows who will accept him and who won't, there's no free will or choice involved. God predetermines who goes to hell and who is saved.

[neorichieb1971]

Most people change for only brief periods. I just seperated from a woman of 8 years and lost my kid and house in the process.

Reading up on how to deal with that situation I went to the gym, got myself tons of healthy food and started working on myself. After a while I gave in, because it wasnt me. I'm too lazy and I feel that to be my best, I have to be myself.

Change will usually come from finding new interests, new job, maybe even a new companion. But changing yourself from within is a complete joke and it never works, or it doesnt for me.

[Specineff]

So where is He now, when Man continues to commit sin against Him, and often in His name, left right and centre?

Right where He's always been-with His arms wide open; willing to accept anyone who will accept Him.

...but because he is all knowing, he knows who will accept him and who won't, there's no free will or choice involved. God predetermines who goes to hell and who is saved.

Before this degenerates into a lockable topic, I like to state two things:

First. Whoever ends up in hell will not because of His choice. Anyone will be fully aware that his or her eternal destiny is the result of all the choices he made. And God has to respect those choices, regardless of the result.

Second. I like tacos.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

I truely believe one can change if he/she wants to...
We all have a choice, we make choices every day. You can choose to step down, be an asshole, step on toes to get ahead,etc,etc whatever.
It all depends on you. Are you a giver, or a taker? You can still learn from your mistakes...

God might have been a sort of "hardass" in the Old Testemant, but HE made it easier later on for those to follow, if they so chose to do so.

People CAN change...its all up to you, and whats really inside you're heart!
Some people don't have the integrity to accept their faults, and thus "change". Then again, some people are fine just being themselves...or at least they think so.

I've changed. I used to be a lot more wild, but I still believe in forgivness and whats really right.

Saying you cannot "change" is like admitting that you fail to learn from your mistakes. All of us are capable of doing so. You just need to perform some introspection.

[neorichieb1971]

Learning from your mistakes is one thing, changing into a different person is quite another thing.

[Randorama]

The examples that come to mind about free will for me are atrocities in the US. It is all nice and good to watch 'dances and wolves' and think, 'wow, if I lived back then, I might have sided with the native americans too', but the truth is that might not have been a viable option due to the constraints put upon free will (especially at a time when native americans were not thought to be human beings, and blacks were not considered to have souls). There is only a certain degree of freedom, but people rarely are capable of jumping out of a reigning paradigm of thought.

How much did it take George Crook for instance to realize that Native americans were human beings? No doubt a series of life-death situations in his war with the indians. Mindsets certainly aren't easily broken.

Haha, look at how the US is still trying to wrap its mind around evolutionary theory...we still can't change!

Well, do you know what Theory Of Mind is (TOM)? This is wild speculation, but one idea i had is that, often, the culture of hate (...for the lack of a better term) is based on not granting a theory of mind to other individuals. Actually, the combination of this factor and the perception of members of other communities as different, collective entities ( "them", like an hive), can lead to some of the unpleasant results that history is so full of. There's also the other option: if you perceive yourself as a part of the hive, how can you project individuality in "the enemy"?

About evolutionism...i don't know, i doubt that even among its "supporters" (what a disgusting word, and scientific world is all about people being "supporters of a theory", bah ), there are too many people that fully understand it.Surely not Noam Chomsky and sicophants, for instance, as i had more than one discussion with people stating wrong things about evolution and innateness of language. Everyone's for relativism if it is a cheap way to say that we're not wrong. Beside that, it has been the target of any political dogma that wants to explain the universe and put the core lobby the centre of said universe. It wasn't surely popular in Soviet Union, for instance.

[Randorama]

Double Post!

...but i love Tacos.

Who doesn't?

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Learning from your mistakes is one thing, changing into a different person is quite another thing.

It all depends on what you really mean by "change". Not all people are capable of change, because they choose not to. Its not to say that they truely cannot...they however, choose not to do so.

Anyway, I think we're wearing this thead out...What are we really talking about here? "Change" may be something different from one person to the next.
I already made my points/beliefs...not that anyone really gives a fuck.
Then again who really does?

[mrMagenta]

I'd like to flip it and say that everything, including people, are constantly changing. Beliefs and opinions are really tough, but even they are more or less in a state of perpetual gliding (though it can be annoyingly slow).

When two people are debating a problem from different sides, each side usually sticks to their words.. but the words themselves tend to glide in meaning. So people can have their favourite terms and symbols, but they can't fixate the concepts behind them without totally isolating themselves or constantly refreshing the concepts from a stable source (like the bible and church).. but give it time and you'll find that even the sources are changing.

Learning from your mistakes isn't really change, but experience and afterthought can lead to real change. Also when the chemical balance in our brains changes (as it does with age) it can lead to all kinds of changes to our personalities.

to what degree can a man improve? too many factors to weigh in for it to be a straight answer.. "what is improvement?"

I don't think it's age itselfs that breaks the efficiency in learning or becoming more skilled. Experience can certainly speed up learning. Sure, age dulls things down to some degree, but self importance, the will to tackle something new, and the "rigid constructs" people build up for themselves are probably greater factors in why old people learn slower.

[Michaelm]

I'm really sorry but god or whatever it's called just doesn't exist.
Religions are the old ways of having a law just like we have laws now.
And just like the laws of today are made for the benefit of governments and businesses, religion was made the same way for the benefit of the upperclass people of that time.
There's no better way to have people obey than to have them fear for something.

Offcourse we all know we will go to heaven when we have done our first 1cc

As for people changing, I guess some can, some can but won't and some can't. There will always be more jerks around than nice people.
And very unfortunatly the jerks usualy are on top.

[Acid King]

Before this degenerates into a lockable topic, I like to state two things:

First. Whoever ends up in hell will not because of His choice. Anyone will be fully aware that his or her eternal destiny is the result of all the choices he made. And God has to respect those choices, regardless of the result.

Second. I like tacos.

My point is simply this, you can't have an all knowing supernatural entity and not have determinism. If He knows everyones actions before they do them, if He knows everything that has happened and will happen, then no one has choice in the matter, even if they have the illusion of free will. His "knowing" determines their action. I really doubt that God has ever said "Wow, I didn't see that coming."

And for the record, I enjoy tacos as well.... also chalupas from Taco Bell.

[The n00b]

I think everyone here needs to play Planescape Torment. In that game the main character learns from his mistakes and can eventually become a saint-like person. However, he still gets sent to hell because he was a complete bastard in his earlier life. Now should he have been sent to hell? After all, in theory, he is a changed man and thus the person sent to hell is not the person who deserved it in the first place.

So maybe after spending like a 1000 years in hell, someone learns from their mistakes and becomes a good person. Wouldn't a just god now have to do his best to save that person or risk becoming unjust? Surely an all powerful god could enter hell and pluck out anyone he wished, no matter what they believed in, if he wanted to. He's all powerful after all, right? What if Hitler or Stalin made it to heaven? weird...

Oh yeah and I think God puts up with us because he basically has to. I have this theory that among all the billions of civilizations in our universe, we are the most entertaining. Thus God either has to keep us around or risk an eternity of boredom!

[russ]

Can people change?

In my experience, after about the age of 14, no. They cannot.

*pile drives ex-girlfriend*

[Moogs]

Sure, people can change. If you smack 'em hard enough.

[dave4shmups]

Right where He's always been-with His arms wide open; willing to accept anyone who will accept Him.

...but because he is all knowing, he knows who will accept him and who won't, there's no free will or choice involved. God predetermines who goes to hell and who is saved.

Before this degenerates into a lockable topic, I like to state two things:

First. Whoever ends up in hell will not because of His choice. Anyone will be fully aware that his or her eternal destiny is the result of all the choices he made. And God has to respect those choices, regardless of the result.

Second. I like tacos.

Well said Specineff. If a person doesn't want anything to do with God, why should God put them in Heaven-they wouldn't want to be there if they can't stand the idea of His existence in the first place. And Specineff is right about God respecting choices; He's not going to force anyone to believe in Him who doesn't.

[CMoon]

Second. I like tacos.

*sighs* You'll NEVER change...

[The n00b]

If there is a god, why would he send an athiest to hell if the athiest was a basically good person? Isn't that kind of petty?

[BulletMagnet]

Methinks this thread's been officially hijacked, heh heh.

[Venom]

People can change with brain damage, take Phineas Gauge (sp?) for example. A pipe went through his brain and he survived, but was never the same.

My current thoughts are that people are forever changing, due to compiling experiences. Even so, the 'core' person often does remain very similar, though with time gaining new knowledge, skills, etc. I guess after a certain time it is harder to form new connections in the brain, so the core person will remain unless the brain is damaged.

Am I really concsious? I may just be using rote skills I've learned and analytical processes that have been trained in me. Then again, determinism and freewill compatibalism make sense to me. I could have typed this differently but that would have been deterministic as well...

Looks like this thread is going off in a very different direction though...

[Acid King]

Well said Specineff. If a person doesn't want anything to do with God, why should God put them in Heaven-they wouldn't want to be there if they can't stand the idea of His existence in the first place. And Specineff is right about God respecting choices; He's not going to force anyone to believe in Him who doesn't.

Way to skirt and ignore everything I said. ::le sigh::

[dave4shmups]

If there is a god, why would he send an athiest to hell if the athiest was a basically good person? Isn't that kind of petty?

The problem with saying that atheist is "a good person" is that, according to the Bible, we're all in need of grace. To sin means to miss the mark, and even the best person does. Only a perfect person would not be in need of grace.

I'm not trying to hijack this thread or ignore anyone, just point out a way through which people can change.

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20

'Nuff said.

[dave4shmups]

People can change with brain damage, take Phineas Gauge (sp?) for example. A pipe went through his brain and he survived, but was never the same.

My current thoughts are that people are forever changing, due to compiling experiences. Even so, the 'core' person often does remain very similar, though with time gaining new knowledge, skills, etc. I guess after a certain time it is harder to form new connections in the brain, so the core person will remain unless the brain is damaged.

Am I really concsious? I may just be using rote skills I've learned and analytical processes that have been trained in me. Then again, determinism and freewill compatibalism make sense to me. I could have typed this differently but that would have been deterministic as well...

Looks like this thread is going off in a very different direction though...

Good point about experiences changing people. But even with very negative experieces, you can still train your brain. I have learned, for example, with my anxiety disorder, that positive self-talk, and thinking relax when I exhale, can stave off a panic attack-it halts the adrenaline rush sent by a part of your brain to initiate flight-or fight.

[judesalmon]

People can change, and often do, and there are numerous factors, many of which have been touched upon here.

A good question for the believers out there:

Do you belive people who don't believe in God are not delivered unto His Eternal Salvation?

If so, if a person was born on a remote island somewhere that had no knowledge of Christianity, would they not be saved also?

[Randorama]

Way to skirt and ignore everything I said. ::le sigh::

You shouldn't be surprised, no?

Outside the crusade hijack: I don't think, though, that some holistic considerations can be really labelled as "change",not in their range, at least.

Intuitively, i would say that polar changes are sometimes perceived as the only true changes, while the gradual evolution of some traits into their counterparts, on a scalar value, is perhaps too gradual to be perceived as a true change. Same discourse can be repeated for temporal changes...gradual switches over time are almost imperceptible, are they recognizable if quick?