The top-loader NES-quality hardware, or garbage?...

[dave4shmups]

From what I've seen, people either slam this console for it's picture quality (some going so far as to say that they won't play NES games on it), or they say that the lines in the screen are really no big deal.

I don't care that much about having AV out, so is the top-loader NES quality hardware, or not? The price of these units is not a problem for me.

I guess I could wait until the Retron 5 (which can play, among other things, NES and Famicom games) comes out for $99.99, but that's a clone, and even though I've heard good things about it from those who went hands-on with it at E3, clones generally suck.

[leonk]

Here's my take on it (background: I run nesreproductions.com, played and tested thousands of nes games on many different consoles) An AV moded nes top loader gives the same video quality as front loader without the finicky connector. As for nes clones, they will work for 95% of the games but no one makes a good nes on a chip that can play all nes games and all pirate carts. Even the retropack (made by a guy who knows about nes dev more than anyone else on the planet) can't play all nes games like original Nintendo hardware.

[papa_november]

if you find one at savers for $5 great, if you don't then don't waste the 1.5 benjamins

hope you can solder because rf sux

also adding exsound is way harder

in summary, get a frontloader and a new cart connector and put the savings toward a flash cart

[Fudoh]

(not the point, but the Retron 5 isn't a clone, it's an emulator running on ARM hardware)

I have an US-NTSC NES and a japanese AV Famicom. Prior to modding the AV Famicom had better composite quality. With RGB they're completely the same, so I would assume that the US toploader NES units are just as fine.

[dave4shmups]

[quote="Fudoh"](not the point, but the Retron 5 isn't a clone, it's an emulator running on ARM hardware) I have an US-NTSC NES and a japanese AV Famicom. Prior to modding the AV Famicom had better composite quality. With RGB they're completely the same, so I would assume that the US toploader NES units are just as fine.[/quote

What's ARM hardware?

Yeah, the video quality of the top-loader NES is the only thing that concerns me. There's no way I would AV mod it-the only console mod I've ever done in my life was breaking off the two plastic tabs on in the inside of an SNES, so that I could play Super Famicom games on it. How noticeable are the lines in the RF picture put out by the top-loader?

I HATE the front-loader, and I won't get another one. I've had one that had new pin connectors installed, and another one that just had the original contacts cleaned, and both are finicky as hell.

[Fudoh]

ARM's a CPU/chip developer (actually the largest one). If you have a smartphone, it's likely running on a processor based on ARM technology.

How noticeable are the lines in the RF picture put out by the top-loader?

you're not seriously considering using a RF connection ? In the US there was a late series of the toploader models featuring composite video from stock. It's said to have nice quality as well, but is quite rare.

[leonk]

even if it uses an arm processor, the software would still not be 100% accurate. If no PC software is 100% accurate, what hope does a much slower arm cpu have? As far as I know, the PPU hasn't been 100% correctly reverse engineered / emulated. It's a custom Nintendo IC which people tried to emulate based on observations, rather than direct access to the core.

But, because it's ARM based, one can always hope it's software upgradable to fix glitches, just the same way the retropak is.

[Fudoh]

I'm not saying that it will be more accurate. Just saying it isn't a clone, but an emulator - totally different approach compared to all previous "compatible" systems.

[dave4shmups]

ARM's a CPU/chip developer (actually the largest one). If you have a smartphone, it's likely running on a processor based on ARM technology.

How noticeable are the lines in the RF picture put out by the top-loader?

you're not seriously considering using a RF connection ? In the US there was a late series of the toploader models featuring composite video from stock. It's said to have nice quality as well, but is quite rare.

I am. I don't want to pay the money for modded top-loader. That's why I asked about the picture.

There is a Famicom AV console on Ebay right now for a reasonable price, BUT it's the console only. Now, I have NES controllers, AV cables, and the power supply for the front-loader, but I don't know if the AV cables or the power supply would work with this console.

[ApolloBoy]

There is a Famicom AV console on Ebay right now for a reasonable price, BUT it's the console only. Now, I have NES controllers, AV cables, and the power supply for the front-loader, but I don't know if the AV cables or the power supply would work with this console.

The AV Fami uses the same AV cables as the SNES, N64 and GameCube but the NES PSU will not work with it (the NES uses an AC power supply, the Famicom uses DC). A model 1 Genesis PSU will work just fine though.

[Ed Oscuro]

No US NES needs to use an RF connection - even the toaster will allow you to output split video and mono sound over RCA jacks. For the original NES you just need a female-to-female RCA cable.

[leonk]

You can use DC power adapter on USA nes. First thing that the power plug hits is a bridge rectifier that converts AC to DC. All modern circuits are DC.

[cathoderaze]

I'm selling one on eBay right now if you end up wanting one.

[dave4shmups]

No US NES needs to use an RF connection - even the toaster will allow you to output split video and mono sound over RCA jacks. For the original NES you just need a female-to-female RCA cable.

I've done the RCA cable thing with older consoles, like the Atari 7800. But I really wonder how much it would improve the picture quality of the top-loader NES?

[ApolloBoy]

No US NES needs to use an RF connection - even the toaster will allow you to output split video and mono sound over RCA jacks. For the original NES you just need a female-to-female RCA cable.

I've done the RCA cable thing with older consoles, like the Atari 7800. But I really wonder how much it would improve the picture quality of the top-loader NES?

Not by much, it won't get rid of the vertical line issue.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm gonna have to disagree that it's not a big deal:


The image quality might still not be such that you want to jump on a top-loader, but saying that pulling audio out of the video signal isn't a big deal isn't right. If you're going through the trouble of a toploader you really might as well do it that way.

The only time I'd even consider RF is if I only had, for some odd reason, an ancient or cheap TV with RF input only. But I don't think that's going to be the case for any of us, and even if it was, I'd say getting an upgrade would be a priority.

[dave4shmups]

I'm gonna have to disagree that it's not a big deal:


The image quality might still not be such that you want to jump on a top-loader, but saying that pulling audio out of the video signal isn't a big deal isn't right. If you're going through the trouble of a toploader you really might as well do it that way.

The only time I'd even consider RF is if I only had, for some odd reason, an ancient or cheap TV with RF input only. But I don't think that's going to be the case for any of us, and even if it was, I'd say getting an upgrade would be a priority.

Gotcha, well I could definitely ask on someplace like the Atariage Marketplace forums if someone has an AV modded top-loader NES for sale. I'd much rather buy it that way then buy a top-loader and mail it to someone to have it AV modded.

[Ed Oscuro]

Time to start buying Famicom games, maybe?

FWIW I just use a regular toaster NES (isn't it confusing how the "toaster" NES isn't a toploader?) like everybody else, and I learned to enjoy it. I have no regrets

[dave4shmups]

Time to start buying Famicom games, maybe?

FWIW I just use a regular toaster NES (isn't it confusing how the "toaster" NES isn't a toploader?) like everybody else, and I learned to enjoy it. I have no regrets

I've used two toaster NES consoles within the past year or so. The first one had a new 72-pin installed, and came from 4Jays classic games, no less. They didn't bother to clean ANY of the NES games (that is the LAST time I get retro games from them), and the 72-pin connector must have been a cheapo one, because I had a lot of trouble with it, even with clean games.

The other one just had cleaned pins, and was purchased from a reliable guy on Atariage, and that one was finicky as well, although it was better.

So I don't want to go the toaster NES route again. I really don't understand why Nintendo didn't make the NES a top-loader to begin with. Surely someone at Nintendo knew that going with the toaster design would cause a lot of problems. The explanation I've heard is that after the console gaming crash, Nintendo didn't want the NES to look like a typical video game console, although I don't know whether that's true or not.

[trap15]

If you use a dirty game on a clean connector, it quickly makes the connector dirty... I thought that was obvious enough. The reason it started failing is because you didn't make sure the games were clean.

[dave4shmups]

If you use a dirty game on a clean connector, it quickly makes the connector dirty... I thought that was obvious enough. The reason it started failing is because you didn't make sure the games were clean.

It is obvious to me, and it was then. But when 4jays writes on their website "Everythings been tested, cleaned and includes a 30 day warranty!", then I thought it was safe to assume that the games had already been cleaned thoroughly. They are a very highly regarded seller of retro games and consoles, and I had never had problems with them before.

Aside from which, I've encountered other people (on the Atariage forums) who've had trouble with NES's with new 72-pin connectors.

But that's also part of the problem with manufacturing a console the way Nintendo did with the toaster NES-regardless of how old the connector pins are, every game has to be perfectly clean, or it won't work. It's not that way on cartridge-based consoles that are top-loading; I know from personal experience.

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't trust anybody else to clean my games for me - although I have bought a fair number of games from Japan and never connector-checked 'em, and haven't had problems. (Maybe I should start!) For NES games I almost always assume they're dirty. Maybe this is a time to think that you should do the cotton swab + alcohol test on a connector before plugging it in the first time. A bit expensive but worth it just to catch those problematic games from the start.

[papa_november]

The ultimate solution to the frontloader's cartridge slot is to use a flash cart and never bother taking it out once it's inserted properly.

[dave4shmups]

I don't trust anybody else to clean my games for me - although I have bought a fair number of games from Japan and never connector-checked 'em, and haven't had problems. (Maybe I should start!) For NES games I almost always assume they're dirty. Maybe this is a time to think that you should do the cotton swab + alcohol test on a connector before plugging it in the first time. A bit expensive but worth it just to catch those problematic games from the start.

Oh yeah, I cleaned them all once I found out that 4jays hadn't. I know about the flash carts, but-and I am NOT condemning anyone who uses them-I question the legality of them.

I don't care about having a console that can play 100% of the NES library, so I'll probably go for a clone. From reviews I've seen on Youtube, the FC Twin and Retron 3 are pretty reliable as far as NES games are concerned. The Retron 5 looks really sweet. Evidently it uses an Android ROM: http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/11/hand ... ic-consol/

I don't know if that would work better then ARM. But if it plays NES games and Famicom games better then other clone systems, I would gladly pay the $99.99 price tag when it comes out.

[Fudoh]

ARM's the processor and the Android ROM is the OS.

[SunJammer]

I cleaned my front-loader myself using this guide, and haven't had a problem since:

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/nesmai ... enance.htm

fixing the flattened pins on the 72-pin connector was especially helpful

[Fudoh]

absolutely. A refurbished original Nintendo 72-pin connector is way better than using one of those 3rd party replacements. Cartridges might not enter and exit as smoothly after bending the pins, but I never had a single problem with any game after cleaning out the connector.

[dave4shmups]

absolutely. A refurbished original Nintendo 72-pin connector is way better than using one of those 3rd party replacements. Cartridges might not enter and exit as smoothly after bending the pins, but I never had a single problem with any game after cleaning out the connector.

4jays must have used a cheapo 3rd party replacement 72-pin connectors. Because when I did get a game to work on it, it had to be in the NES in exactly the right way to work-I mean, not even off by a centimeter.

[kamiboy]

Once you go Famicom Titler, you are never going back.

[dave4shmups]

Once you go Famicom Titler, you are never going back.

I just looked that up, and it looks pretty sweet! Sharp are the ones that also made the Twin Famicom, so I bet the Titler is pretty high quality.

However, I'd rather not fork over a grand for one!: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid= ... &_from=R40