DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

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DrTrouserPlank
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by DrTrouserPlank »

Erppo wrote:
n0rtygames wrote:We all get frustrated when they beat us (believe me, they do it more regularly than any of us let on). We all sling our chairs back from time to time and swear at the game.
I would have quit the genre years ago if playing regularly made me feel frustrated.
I don't really see how anyone could plays these games and not feel frustration fairly often. You'd need to have a pretty impartial, almost non-commital attitude towards it to feel no frustration when your time investment and effort isn't working out the way you'd hope, and if you were non-commital in your attitude then you probably wouldn't be playing enough to be getting anywhere.

Maybe it's because you're Finnish? ... as a nation they seem pretty calm and level-headed so maybe you're just not the sort of person who gets annoyed by things easily?
To go "full-Plank" - colloquial - To experience disproportionate levels of frustration as a result of resistance to completing a task. Those who go "full-Plank" very rarely recover.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by trap15 »

I don't usually get frustrated either. If I get frustrated with a game, I probably won't be playing it very extensively.

If I die or mess up or whatever, I know it's my fault and I did something wrong, so I don't get frustrated. I do sometimes lose focus though, and then I just stop playing because my ability to play starts deteriorating.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Erppo »

DrTrouserPlank wrote:I don't really see how anyone could plays these games and not feel frustration fairly often. You'd need to have a pretty impartial, almost non-commital attitude towards it to feel no frustration when your time investment and effort isn't working out the way you'd hope
But it is. If I fail one time I probably still learnt something to make me a better player in the end. I might learn of some possible mistake and know to avoid it in the future. I might have tested some new way to handle something. If not, at least I got some practice. I've been getting slowly better ever since I first started playing so obviously something is happening.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by 1up »

Lumi wrote:
1up wrote:
trap15 wrote:I cleared DDP DFK Novice in my first credit ever playing the game and the first 4 levels of SDOJ Novice is just as easy, but level 5 feels like level 5 in DDP. Steep spike in difficulty. It's a little unbalanced, like I said before, but not random at all.
It's not as hard as DDP stage 5, but it's hard. Although, since the rest of the game is really easy and you should have raked in all extends, ALL isn't impossible really.
I'm not saying its impossible, just that it's unbalanced. I've cleared novice mode already and can consistently no miss stage 1-4 and get the two score extends and the 1up at the stage 4 midboss, but stage 5 is brutal in comparison. I've played some DDP lately and made it to stage 6, once, and I think SDOJ novice 5 feels like DDP 5 in the way of the bulletspeeds and how they trap you .
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by endoKarb »

n0rtygames wrote:You don't see them get up go "FUCK SAKE", walk around the room pissed at some stupid mistake they never should have made.. then sit down still tilted for another go.
As a dedicated shooting game player I really don't want to be associated with this kind of stereotypes.

If I'd get frustrated with shooting games, I'd do something else.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Muchi Muchi Spork »

I get frustrated with them. If you don't go for 1CCs then I could see not getting frustrated, that's about it. I could never do a live run with a mic with a hard game I'm new at because people would ask themselves who is this sailor and how did he get on my computer. If they didn't piss me off then clearing them wouldn't feel so good. I'm not sure they are worth the stress but after you have caught the bug it doesn't seem to go away they really make most other games feel really boring and not stimulating.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by n0rtygames »

Erppo wrote:I would have quit the genre years ago if playing regularly made me feel frustrated.
Erppo wrote:But it is. If I fail one time I probably still learnt something to make me a better player in the end. I might learn of some possible mistake and know to avoid it in the future. I might have tested some new way to handle something. If not, at least I got some practice. I've been getting slowly better ever since I first started playing so obviously something is happening.
Erppo, keep in mind though that you're a really good player and most likely able to stay in that Zen state required to play the games longer than most of us though. Maybe that's the trick to getting there.. keeping your thoughts in check ;)

I feel like I used a word some didn't like, or perhaps read in to frustration as being this hugely negative thing - but for what its worth most of my conclusions in that post came from my own feelings and a talk with Emuser in the past about the practise and dedication that goes in to them. For some, the "frustration" is all part of the fun. If I miss on a Futari run where I'm trying to basically clear the game AND get a maximum theoretical score (no bombs, no deaths, perfect play) - dying due to my own mistakes just makes me swear.

But it's not like I turn in to some raging slobbering maniac breaking controllers or anything or throwing my children around the room. "Aww fuck off" and jumping back in my chair when the miss snaps me out of that leaning forward pose where I'm concentrating is usually about as far as it goes. Was just hamming it up a bit ;)
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by DrTrouserPlank »

endoKarb wrote:
n0rtygames wrote:You don't see them get up go "FUCK SAKE", walk around the room pissed at some stupid mistake they never should have made.. then sit down still tilted for another go.
As a dedicated shooting game player I really don't want to be associated with this kind of stereotypes.

If I'd get frustrated with shooting games, I'd do something else.
You never get frustrated with these games?

Just in a rather general sense to everyone here, I personally don't see how one couldn't feel frustration when playing these games. I'm not talking about throwing tantrums and smashing pads. It's probably what people think I do but it's nothing like that; it's just a generic expression of annoyance at something that has stopped me from doing what I intended. In the more extreme moment I say to myself internally that it's "fucking ridiculous" and turn the machine off after finally blowing all my lives on sections that I clear 9/10 times. You see my reactions to this on this forum frequently; it's the motivating force behind a lot of my posts. I am however under no illusion that everyone has these moments frequently, it's just that the best scorers refuse to air them... it's a sign of weakness, a sign of being human; something that would tarnish the image that they fastidiously created for themselves online.

To completely disconnect emotions from playing a goal-orientated game is ridiculous. We feel.... we try, we fail, it hurts, we're happy, we die, you feel frustration, you get through a hard sequence, you feel relieved. Every second and every input is a moment and decision that you are invested in. If you feel nothing for the consequences of that then I don't know why you'd play games like these because the prize of succeeding must surely be as worthless as every hour you played.
To go "full-Plank" - colloquial - To experience disproportionate levels of frustration as a result of resistance to completing a task. Those who go "full-Plank" very rarely recover.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Deca »

I think the better you become the less frustrated you're inclined to get. Higher level players have a better understanding of how to learn from a game, adapt, and progress continually. Everything is a learning experience. When you get frustrated it's usually because you're mad at yourself and are thinking "dammit I screwed up I know I could have done that correctly" and keep hammering away with a similar approach. To a more skilled player they may well see that the approach they'd taken is ineffective and immediately begin forming a new one. They learned something from the game so it wasn't a waste. Also, a more skilled player has a better understanding of what they can reasonably expect out of a run, and the vast majority of their play time will be spent focusing on specific spots or techniques rather than crossing their fingers and hoping for a clear or new high score every time.

I get frustrated a fair amount of the time, but I do find myself learning a bit more and not being bothered quite as often as in the past. I mostly get mad when I fail to do things that I know I'm capable of and end up wasting large amounts of time just out of stubbornness. If I can break that habit and take these games apart more methodically I'm sure I'd improve considerably, but for myself personally it's a bit easier said than done. Incidentally, I'm not an exceptional player.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by trap15 »

Spot on, Deca :)
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Jonst »

Deca wrote:I think the better you become the less frustrated you're inclined to get. Higher level players have a better understanding of how to learn from a game, adapt, and progress continually. Everything is a learning experience. When you get frustrated it's usually because you're mad at yourself and are thinking "dammit I screwed up I know I could have done that correctly" and keep hammering away with a similar approach. To a more skilled player they may well see that the approach they'd taken is ineffective and immediately begin forming a new one. They learned something from the game so it wasn't a waste. Also, a more skilled player has a better understanding of what they can reasonably expect out of a run, and the vast majority of their play time will be spent focusing on specific spots or techniques rather than crossing their fingers and hoping for a clear or new high score every time.

I get frustrated a fair amount of the time, but I do find myself learning a bit more and not being bothered quite as often as in the past. I mostly get mad when I fail to do things that I know I'm capable of and end up wasting large amounts of time just out of stubbornness. If I can break that habit and take these games apart more methodically I'm sure I'd improve considerably, but for myself personally it's a bit easier said than done. Incidentally, I'm not an exceptional player.
You're 1cc list is pretty impressive though!
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by n0rtygames »

Deca wrote:To a more skilled player they may well see that the approach they'd taken is ineffective and immediately begin forming a new one.
That's the core of the post right there for me. Something I've found very hard to do in the past but is slowly coming to me the more I play. I guess familiarity helps a lot in being able to make those educated decisions about what to do next in a particular situation!
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Grumpius »

DrTrouserPlank wrote:I don't really see how anyone could plays these games and not feel frustration fairly often
I don't fustrated as such when playing any vidya, just channel any emotion into greater ambition towards beating any game and eventually it pays off with gradual improvement (speaking of which, I FINALLY made it to the 4th Doom form in Ketsui: Death Label before quickly dying happily ;A;).
That said... There is ONE boss that shits up my patience with cheapness.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by pestro87 »

n0rtygames wrote:But it's not like I turn in to some raging slobbering maniac breaking controllers or anything or throwing my children around the room.
I was expecting this:
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Weak Boson »

Yep, I agree very much with Deca. I'm not saying there haven't been any WHY GOD HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME moments but I don't generally get frustrated by these games. When I was going for the Futari God mode 1CC I knew I had many, many deaths ahead of me and that I had to be able to account for each one to be able to make it in the end. And when I say account for the death I don't mean just pointing to the wall of bullets that floored me, I mean identifying what was so risky about my strategy that allowed it to occur.

I've really been enjoying playing SDOJ. It's been a while since I played it because of other stuff my last best was getting to the stage 4 boss in arcade mode and it actually felt like pretty quick progress to get there. Going from getting trapped by mid-sized enemies in stage 3 to dancing about them then laying down a level 10 hyper in the midboss feels great. Still, I've yet to properly attempt stage 5 so we'll see how optimistic I feel once I've got a taste of that!
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Deca »

Jonst wrote:You're 1cc list is pretty impressive though!
Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely very proud of my achievements and how far I've come along since I've started. One of the main things that frustrates me is consistency issues and the fact that I can't sit down with every game I've cleared and get another clear out of it whenever I want to. Also, hanging around some of the most skilled players on this site has humbled me significantly. It's hard to feel cocky about a 1cc when people around you are constantly pushing WRs and looping games. I just don't feel like I've achieved a level of skill where I can meaningfully attempt to score attack full games.

But thank you for the kind words! I really do appreciate it :)
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Special World »

I will say that the amount of frustration I feel in any single online game of Halo eclipses what I'd feel in an entire year of any Cave game. And I'm much better at that game than I am any of Cave's shooters.

Usually it's more of a slight exasperation, because I've lost focus on the game for the night. So I put it down and do something else.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Jonst »

Deca wrote:
Jonst wrote:You're 1cc list is pretty impressive though!
Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely very proud of my achievements and how far I've come along since I've started. One of the main things that frustrates me is consistency issues and the fact that I can't sit down with every game I've cleared and get another clear out of it whenever I want to. Also, hanging around some of the most skilled players on this site has humbled me significantly. It's hard to feel cocky about a 1cc when people around you are constantly pushing WRs and looping games. I just don't feel like I've achieved a level of skill where I can meaningfully attempt to score attack full games.

But thank you for the kind words! I really do appreciate it :)
You're welcome! I remember looking at these lists a while ago,and thought,shit,I'm pretty crap! But I know it's all relative...I would feel proud too if I'd cleared half of what you have! It's not all bad though,I do have some 1cc's.I do feel I have to work hard for them though! I have massive consistency problems,I'm at the point where I can't imagine another clear.I tell myself it will happen,I just don't know what! How long have you been playing shooters seriously for?
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Deca »

Jonst wrote:How long have you been playing shooters seriously for?
I think the first game I played for a 1cc was Perfect Cherry Blossom back in like...2007 maybe? After that I started to really focus on DDP and then Batrider Normal until I got a clear out of that. I feel like I stepped up my game a bit after clearing the first loop of DDP a couple years back, it was whenever I made the "I DID IT" thread. RF2 is probably the one I'm most proud of, DOJBL was really satisfying but I'm annoyed that I'm still not clearing it consistently enough to work on the second loop.

It's also worth mentioning that there have been some pretty big gaps in my playing, generally when I've shifted focus to fighters or Daytona USA or Monster Hunter for a while. If I could focus and refine my practice I would likely be a much better player, but I have too many different interests that I'm bad at managing.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Jonst »

Deca wrote:
Jonst wrote:How long have you been playing shooters seriously for?
I think the first game I played for a 1cc was Perfect Cherry Blossom back in like...2007 maybe? After that I started to really focus on DDP and then Batrider Normal until I got a clear out of that. I feel like I stepped up my game a bit after clearing the first loop of DDP a couple years back, it was whenever I made the "I DID IT" thread. RF2 is probably the one I'm most proud of, DOJBL was really satisfying but I'm annoyed that I'm still not clearing it consistently enough to work on the second loop.

It's also worth mentioning that there have been some pretty big gaps in my playing, generally when I've shifted focus to fighters or Daytona USA or Monster Hunter for a while. If I could focus and refine my practice I would likely be a much better player, but I have too many different interests that I'm bad at managing.
Cool! I see,I don't feel quite so bad now!,I've only really been playing them seriously for about 2 years.Before that it was fighters...
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by danholo »

I suck at this game. Actually, I suck at all shmups but I find this to be harder than Cave's previous games. (Are my assumptions correct?) Anyway, it's awesome. Pure Cave goodness and definitely something to fight against.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by japtor »

Any tips on the stage 3 boss, particularly the last pattern? I can survive the other ones (or at least see the openings) but that last one gets overwhelming quickly for me. Just micro dodge like hell or is there some bigger movement I should be looking for?
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Jonst »

I try and stay on the far side take out some of the spinning turrets to cancel bullets and build a hyper,wait as long as you can,hyper,cancel the bullets and you should kill it fairly quickly by then.plus the gaps on the far side give you a little more time,but keep you're eyes open for stuff coming in on the right hand side and the top!
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by NTSC-J »

japtor wrote:Any tips on the stage 3 boss, particularly the last pattern? I can survive the other ones (or at least see the openings) but that last one gets overwhelming quickly for me. Just micro dodge like hell or is there some bigger movement I should be looking for?
Use the safe spot. It's kind of tricky, but you should be able to get it down with some practice in training mode.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Skykid »

DrTrouserPlank wrote:I don't really see how anyone could plays these games and not feel frustration fairly often.
If you're getting frustrated you're simply approaching the games the wrong way. Dying and restarting is part of the learning process. You should take into account what killed you and try to avoid it or attempt a different approach the next time. In doing that, you'll broaden your general ability and learn to identify patterns more quickly (cross-game.)

If you're slamming into the same bullet over and over and over, sure it's going to get frustrating. You're meant to adapt and learn, not repeat and fail.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by n0rtygames »

Skykid wrote:If you're getting frustrated you're simply approaching the games the wrong way.
Simply having the presence of mind to "wake up" and do something about a situation at different levels of play often separates beginners from good players. Use Street Fighter as an example - when you've got someone playing super aggressive a beginners response is to hold down back and then probably mash a button. Even if they can block cross ups (something that makes a lot of beginners whinge because they dont understand the mechanics) - it's hard to snap out of the "I CANT DO ANYTHIIIIIIIIING HEEEEELP" situation when you're under pressure and dont even get me started about playing that shit online.... In theory, all you've really got to do is chill, block, spot the opening and open it up. MUCH easier said than done though.

Same with bullet hells imo. The bullets give you the mental pressure, sometimes you can get locked in to no longer accurately tap dodging and instead you hold the stick down, your brain goes "EVAAAAAAADE" and then you just end up looking like a retard - bringing unthinkable shame upon yourself, your family and your sisters dog. Going "hang on a minute, it's only a 2d hitbox moving along a fixed trajectory.." is not as easy for some.

If you're suggesting that good players never feel frustration...

https://twitter.com/gusyphus/status/341125287775453185
https://twitter.com/gusyphus/status/341124526295367682
https://twitter.com/gusyphus/status/341124487959441408
https://twitter.com/gusyphus/status/340770594436050944

This is nothing compared to the 25th of May which quite frankly - was a wonderful day for everybodys favourite Gus:
https://twitter.com/gusyphus/status/338233648090320896
https://twitter.com/gusyphus/status/338233727308136448
https://twitter.com/gusyphus/status/338234140417724417
https://twitter.com/gusyphus/status/338234246068056064
https://twitter.com/gusyphus/status/338235217879908352
https://twitter.com/gusyphus/status/338236796041297922
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by dan76 »

After scanning the last few pages... Christ someone make it stop!

DTP has been doing this for years, why are you all bothering to respond? He can't play, he even has his own thread for moaning. Can't we keep this thread clear?
NTSC-J wrote: Use the safe spot. It's kind of tricky, but you should be able to get it down with some practice in training mode.
I hadn't actually watched that - fucking amazing. Thanks. Wonder if he could hear the crowd with those headphones on.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Cagar »

n0rtygames wrote: If you're suggesting that good players never feel frustration...
I've seen CHUBOW, even better player than Gus, rage like a maniac on irc with bad engrish... it's hilarious :mrgreen:
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Skykid »

n0rtygames wrote:
Skykid wrote:If you're getting frustrated you're simply approaching the games the wrong way.
Simply having the presence of mind to "wake up" and do something about a situation at different levels of play often separates beginners from good players.
Sure, but it takes resolve to become good. When I first got DOJ on PS2, I thought the game was absolutely stupid and I was Trouserplanking about it (in my head) for a good while. When I got it on PCB I had a little more experience with the genre, so approached it differently. And yes, it kicked my ass continually, but it was never paramount to CRT busting frustration.

Sure, on the road to a 1CC, you always have those what the fuuuuuck moments where you can't believe how much of a cock you just were, for the fiftieth time, but edging your way to victory is really what shmupping is all about. Those with mammoth skill levels often don't edge so much - more sidle - to a clear, but if the games were so frustrating we all just wanted to throw the cabinet through the window I don't think we'd ever bother playing them.
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Re: DoDonPachi Saidaioujou coming to Xbox 360 (REGION-FREE!)

Post by Udderdude »

Gus's twitter profile pic .. I can feel the pain. :3

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