Tropes vs Women in video games

[Blackbird]

And does any fucking person on the planet know how to disagree with Anita Sarkeesian without pointing out the money she got form her kickstarter, which was 95% funded by people who SAW THAT SHE WAS PAST HER TARGET AMOUNT AND THEN DONATED ANYWAY, a thing which was done as a reaction to a bunch of cockwaffle "gamers" who decided that they medically needed to prove her fucking point?

1 - As a kneejerk reaction to people being dickheads, feminist supporters donated a fuckton of money to Sarkeesian as a way of making their displeasure known. The intent of that money is to advance feminism, not make Sarkeesian rich. Sarkeesian just happened to be a useful speaking point. It's inconceivable that she needs that much money to produce her project. Is it correct for her to keep whatever's left over from that small fortune? Considering the circumstances, I think she should donate the remainder to related charities.

2 - Sarkeesian promised in her campaign to have her project complete by the end of 2012. It is now well into 2013. While she is belatedly making good on her promise, this still does not change the indisputible fact that she promised her backers a product by a certain date, and failed to deliver upon that promise. Especially considering the amount of money she made, fulfilling her promises to her backers should have been her absolute #1 priority. Instead, she spent the time traveling the country, doing interviews, and giving lectures on feminist topics. This seems disrespectful of the backers that donated in good will to her project.

[Udderdude]

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[njiska]

What do you have to say about publishers who force game writers to fight if they want a female protagonist in their high-budget game?

This really is a badly written sentence. Are you saying there's not enough non-violent games with female protagonists? Or are you saying game writers fight amongst themselves...? I want to see a movie now about publishers forcing their game script writers to battle to the death in gladiator style duels!

Roo, I believe what he's referring to is the difficulty major developers have with placing female characters in lead roles, primarily due to push back from marketing saying that games with female leads don't sell. There have been several developers who have come forward claiming that they had to fight (argue) with management to get female leads. Naughty Dog dev's commented that Last of Us also had an issue with getting Ellie prominently placed on the box art. This is actually a legitimate complaint. Not because everyone needs to be equally represented, but because it's crushing artistic freedom. That said, business is business and what sells is what keeps families fed, so there will always be difficulty until the market says otherwise.

[Giest118]

What do you have to say about publishers who force game writers to fight if they want a female protagonist in their high-budget game?

This really is a badly written sentence. Are you saying there's not enough non-violent games with female protagonists? Or are you saying game writers fight amongst themselves...? I want to see a movie now about publishers forcing their game script writers to battle to the death in gladiator style duels!

I'll just let this video make my point:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... otagonists

Can it really be called "betrayal" if the "betraying" character has literally no control over their actions?

Perhaps you should replay Vesperia, because the person who actually brainwashed Estelle was a fairly significant person who ended up turning out to be an antagonist (i.e. betrayal). Seems you've forgotten that. Betrayal also doesn't always necessarily happen voluntarily, the person's personality can sometimes change for reasons beyond their control (you can see this in real life with psychiatric disorders).

So Estelle is brainwashed by a a guy who is himself a traitor and........ that means... you missed my point? Or perhaps intentionally sidestepped it? She still has no control over her actions when you stab her in the face with your sword. You already addressed the point about Estelle though, so I don't know why you're addressing it again. Perhaps you could head back to Sarkeesian's video and justify one of the other occasions where you need to kill a love interest who's been turned into a monster? Apply my squestion to those and then rebut my argument.

[trap15]

Protagonist has a relationship. Majority of people are heterosexual. Protagonist is a male. His relationship is with a female because he is heterosexual. Love interests are generally the closest bond between humans. Betrayal of a love interest is a powerful narrative device. Just because that love interest is a woman doesn't change anything. If the protagonist was a homosexual, he would stab another dude in the face instead. Suddenly it's better? Who's the sexist now?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'll just let this video make my point:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... otagonists

Already addressed this:

As others have pointed out, if certain feminists really feel gaming as a whole is rampant with misogyny, they could always make their own games to change the trend (not that Sarkeesian would, she's rolling in far too much dough milking her newfound, unwarranted publicity to waste her time doing anything productive).

If you want more female leads in gaming because there's a perceived lack of them, you need to entice more females to game I guess, and thus, make make games themed towards them (and I don't mean the insultingly lame cooking/pet keeping/babysitting games that've been spawned). Sadly, marketing is usually going to be stupid and do nonsense like this anyways. At any rate, the covers for games and the marketing aren't always done by the people making the actual game itself, so a game that could be badly marketed and appear misogynistic may actually have the opposite in terms of content. Too many cooks in the kitchen sort of thing. Reminds me of how the north american release of Deathsmiles had that really sexually suggestive cover that really was a bad marketing idea considering how non-sexual the game itself is (aside from Follet's bath scene? that was pretty tame though, lol).

Perhaps you could head back to Sarkeesian's video and justify one of the other occasions where you need to kill a love interest who's been turned into a monster? Apply my statement to those and then rebut my argument.

It's not my job to go and make up situations to justify such a trope; like it or not it's a commonly-used trope, whether for good or worse with respect to the narrative (and I agree the Estelle one was super forced), with multiple genders. Whether you think it's a shitty trope as a whole or not, that doesn't make it inherently gender-biased/antagonistic. It's not limited to largely females/girlfriends like you suggested, and I've no interest in responding to someone complaining about my supposed 'sidestepping' when you did by changing the subject in your earlier post to female protagonists being a harder sell or something which didn't really seem to have anything to do with your complaint about the use of the trope.

[Giest118]

I'll just let this video make my point:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... otagonists

Already addressed this:

As others have pointed out, if certain feminists really feel gaming as a whole is rampant with misogyny, they could always make their own games to change the trend (not that Sarkeesian would, she's rolling in far too much dough milking her newfound, unwarranted publicity to waste her time doing anything productive).

It's funny, because... the point of that video is that publishers make it retarded difficult to make games that change the trend.

I've no interest in responding to someone complaining about my supposed 'sidestepping' when you did by changing the subject in your earlier post to female protagonists being a harder sell or something which didn't really seem to have anything to do with your complaint about the use of the trope.

The reason I brought it up is because you brought up the point that "they should make games to change the trend," and my response was to illustrate that publishers are making that retarded difficult. No sidestepping here.

Perhaps you could head back to Sarkeesian's video and justify one of the other occasions where you need to kill a love interest who's been turned into a monster? Apply my statement to those and then rebut my argument.

It's not my job to go and make up situations to justify such a trope; like it or not it's a commonly-used trope, whether for good or worse with respect to the narrative (and I agree the Estelle one was super forced), with multiple genders. Whether you think it's a shitty trope as a whole or not, that doesn't make it inherently gender-biased/antagonistic. It's not limited to largely females/girlfriends like you suggested.

Humor me with a hypothetical scenario. If it WAS limited to females/girlfriends, would there then be a problem? I'm not trying to lure you here, I'm just trying to get a sense of exactly what level it is we disagree on.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Looking at your avatar, I just thought of something that amused me:

There is something to be said about just how common it is to see the "girlfriend/goddess/'lovely lady' turns evil, beat the shit out of her to win" plot device, though. In the games where this plot device is used, how common is it that it really serves a greater purpose to the narrative? I'd hazard a guess that it's usually just there to provide a boss fight. Which is fair. I guess. In moderation. But how many examples are there? Something like eleven billion?

I'm sure you'll say your use was 'in moderation', but then why can't anyone else's? If it's eleven billion then I guess yours makes it eleven billion plus one, haha... Blackbird brought this up nicely; this whole business seems to be getting into a bad precedent of questioning the limits of freedom in terms of video game narrative as an art form.

[Blackbird]

If you want more female leads in gaming because there's a perceived lack of them, you need to entice more females to game I guess, and thus, make make games themed towards them (and I don't mean the insultingly lame cooking/pet keeping/babysitting games that've been spawned).

Actually, 50% of gamers are now female. Despite this fact, the number of games being made specifically for a female demographic are a drop in the bucket compared to the multitude of games made for the dudebro segment. In fact, at least one AAA publisher goes so far as to exclude female playtesters entirely, for fear of skewing the game's appeal away from their target male demographic. How's that for fucked up?

I would welcome a renaissance of female protagonists and female oriented games. It certainly couldn't hurt considering how stale and incestuous mainstream gaming is right now.

I think it would be interesting to see Sarkeesian make a game to prove her point. There are difficulties with getting published, sure. She got 150k just to make some videos, though, so why not Kickstart a feminist videogame next? This is exactly the kind of project that crowdfunding is for - when traditional publishing cannot or will not do a project that really needs to be made.

[Giest118]

Looking at your avatar, I just thought of something that amused me:

Quote:
There is something to be said about just how common it is to see the "girlfriend/goddess/'lovely lady' turns evil, beat the shit out of her to win" plot device, though. In the games where this plot device is used, how common is it that it really serves a greater purpose to the narrative? I'd hazard a guess that it's usually just there to provide a boss fight. Which is fair. I guess. In moderation. But how many examples are there? Something like eleven billion?

The difference, which somehow went directly over your head, is that Idryo the Creator is in control of her actions at all times. What have I been bitching about? That women have control taken from them and then you have to shoot them in the face for it? Yeah, I don't recall going outside of that specific criteria with my complaints.

Now, okay, perhaps there is something to be said about the limiting of artistic freedom. But I'm not advocating a ban on any of this. I just think it's a bit problematic that when game writers think of how to write a good, dramatic story, so many of them think, "kill powerless women. AW YEAH."

[BareKnuckleRoo]

What have I been bitching about? That women have control taken from them and then you have to shoot them in the face for it?

How is this any different from when it happens to a man? How does killing someone become better because because they're just evil and not necessarily brainwashed? You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with focusing on this trope as if it mostly happens to women (protip: no it doesn't). Why should the person's gender matter if they're your friend and you're forced to fight them?

I just think it's a bit problematic that when game writers think of how to write a good, dramatic story, so many of them think, "kill powerless women. AW YEAH."

Yeah! They should be killing powerless men, that'll make everything so much better. oh wait, it's still killing, sadfaic :'(

Your main argument seems to be hinging on this trope somehow being a female-specific epidemic. I've no problems with you thinking of it as a shitty, overused trope, but the claim that it's somehow got a huge gender disparity or that it's somehow worse or misogynistic when it happens to a woman as opposed to a man is the issue, things you've failed to address or attempt to prove. Does that mean it's better when it happens to a man or that it's just as bad and it's always a sign of misandry? Of course not.

[Giest118]

How does killing someone become better because because they're just evil and not necessarily brainwashed?

Because one of them is an asshole and one of them is a victim? Years of playing video games has given me no issue with beating up genuine assholes.

a bunch of stuff about male characters who are subjected to this trope and what I think of them

We can talk about percentages of how many male vs female characters this trope applies to. We can also think of how the trope is applied. Your response got me thinking for a little bit about why it bothers me more when this happens to female characters, and I think I know why. I have seen this trope used on male characters. I have also seen it used on female characters. When it's used on female characters, it tends to be cheaper. As if there's an underlying idea that, because it's a woman, the scenario automatically has more gravitas, so the writers don't need to put in as much effort to make it plausible, or dramatic, or make any sense.

Also, I have to think that sometimes this trope is used just for the sake of having a boss fight. Exactly what WAS the point of having to fight Possessed Zelda as one of the final battle phases in Twilight Princess? Is Ganondorf too much of a lazy asshole to have the exact same boss fight with you himself? Why in the hell did the aliens go through the trouble of turning the lower half of your girlfriend into an eldritch abomination in Prey? How DOES becoming a vampire completely change your personality and life goals? Is that, like, a vampire thing?

I do perhaps lack objectivity on this issue. I'm not sure there's much point in us debating further, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the things I just said.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I have seen this trope used on male characters. I have also seen it used on female characters. When it's used on female characters, it tends to be cheaper.

That's... a rather broadly stated opinion. If you feel that way, fine, but frankly I think there's a lot of cases where it's used cheaply regardless of gender. Like pretty much any trope, writing can sometimes be lazy.

Games like Final Fantasy IV that rely on constant acute cases of brainwashing everywhere to get characters to do whatever they want them to do are stupid (seriously just how many people are brainwashed, Kain is constantly, Yang gets it at one point, Golbez is pretty much the entire game, the sequel has Cecil get brainwashed... for fuck's sake, Square, really?). It's the exact same reason the 'save the princess' as a common fairytale/videogame trope is stupid - it's a lazy, lazy plot device just as lazy as "OHNOES ALIENS KILL 'EM" is as lazy a plot is for a videogame (at least with a shmup the focus is usually on the gameplay, so we can sorta forgive an excuse plot). Non-RPGs aren't really always good genres for storytelling since gameplay is (hopefully) the main focus in a game, so you've got to forgive the occasional blatant lazy excuse plot... Granted, there is a benefit of having a bunch of tropes that get overused to the point of getting sick of them: it's fun to see stories that subvert them in unusual ways. They're really the most satisfying stories, and you can't have a good subversion without a trope to subvert in the first place.

Even stories that use the whole brainwashing/forced betrayal thing in a more standard fare way can be good though. Mother 3 is a good example where it's used better as part of the plot, but doesn't drag things down by having the brainwashed character be the driving force behind the plot itself.

[evil_ash_xero]

I would just like to point out that I got banned from NeoGAF for not being a "good fit" for ragging on this lady too many times.

Sad times.

[BryanM]

As if there's an underlying idea that, because it's a woman, the scenario automatically has more gravitas, so the writers don't need to put in as much effort to make it plausible, or dramatic, or make any sense.

This reminded me of the Torchwood series where they wanted to save the childrens from the evul alienz. Why should we care about a bunch of NPC kids? Especially in the Dr.Whoverse where they're somehow stupid and useless. Fuck'em.

In fact, at least one AAA publisher goes so far as to exclude female playtesters entirely, for fear of skewing the game's appeal away from their target male demographic. How's that for fucked up?

In a sense all entertainment is porn. What's the percentage of women that watch Family Guy? What's the percentage of men that watch General Hospital?

(Hell, when it comes to TV, it's difficult to find anything where women viewers don't outnumber males. Maybe it's not so bad that we have this one, single, entertainment industry oriented to us. And considering facebook and phones, how big of a difference is there really..)

[Randorama]

I think it would be interesting to see Sarkeesian make a game to prove her point.

Nice idea but...unless she can program and design and etc., 150k to hire a staff that produces a social experiment disguised as a game would be a very, very small budget.

What was her point to prove, again? Non-games sell to shitface frat cretins because they involve sexploitation and retarded narratives, instead of an actual game?

[evil_ash_xero]

Is she actually a gamer anyway? I mean, she doesn't seem to like much.

I mean, she said that Ico was sexist.

Fucking hell....what isn't? Oh..Beyond Good and Evil, I suppose? And....Animal Crossing or something?

I guess what's bugging me the most about this, is how game "journalists" keep popping this up in interviews with game devs. Like the interview with Gavin Moore where the dude just kept saying "well, why couldn't you just give the player a choice to be a girl?".

And I was watching one preview for Rayman Legends, where one of the devs was talking about the game, while they watched it. And he's like "in this stage, Rayman saves a princess, and they have to get out". And the princess is all butt kicking and whatnot(as all PC princesses should be), and the journalist is like "well, it looks like she can take care of herself!". And I just know where that's coming from

I think getting permabanned for criticizing Anita is really making me more peeved than I should be. I think I'll just avoid all topics like these for the time being. Then again, people here tend to have some sense. But we're a small group.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Beyond Good & Evil, story-wise, is actually of The Longest Journey's, Darkened Skye's and Primal's kin. An orphan and her pet sidekick. If not an orphan, then having some problems with her absent parent(s). I wonder what game went there first.

[Drum]

Is she actually a gamer anyway? I mean, she doesn't seem to like much.

I mean, she said that Ico was sexist.

That's not outrageous at all. I remember Greg Kasavin - who knows his shit - saying something similar. I like Ico, but I also think it's a bit icky gender-role-wise. I'm not confident enough to say it's outright sexist, but it's hovering on a line there.

[BrianC]

Beyond Good & Evil, story-wise, is actually of The Longest Journey's, Darkened Skye's and Primal's kin. An orphan and her pet sidekick. If not an orphan, then having some problems with her absent parent(s). I wonder what game went there first.

I thought that was about two dogs and a cat.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The US print mayhap. Admittedly, the US cover artwork looks better than the Euro one I saw. It's like Ico à rebours.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Is she actually a gamer anyway? I mean, she doesn't seem to like much.

I mean, she said that Ico was sexist.

She's a shit researcher who likely barely plays through the games. That, or she has some warped sense of reality where she only perceives what she wants to believe.

It's what really made her complaining about Bayonetta and then praising her for being "a single mom" so irritating. Bayonetta isn't a mom. She isn't a parent, there's nothing to suggest she's ever even been pregnant. She runs into a kid that thinks Bayonetta is her mother (the kid is mistaken) and Bayonetta constantly complains about how she hates crying children, how kids are annoying, how she isn't her mom, how she hates babies but loves making 'em (witches understand the importance of contraceptives when it comes to sexual liberation I guess) and so on. Instead of praising her for being a sexually liberated and strong, self asserted character (as well as being a parody of hypersexualized fanservice characters at times all rolled into one) who spends the game beating up a patriarchal cult analogy of Christianity, Sarkeesian sees these all as negatives and chooses to praise some trait she's attributed to Bayonetta despite it being completely contradicted throughout the entire fucking game, so it's hard to understand how she could make this mistake without simply having not seriously made an attempt to play/understand the game.

spoiler: the kid, as it turns out, is actually Bayonetta herself, except time travelled into the future by her father in a weird plot to make her present self fit for being shoved into the eye of a goddess or something, her young self just sees her older self as 'mommy' because present Bayonetta happens to bear a striking resemblance to her actual mother

[BrianC]

The US print mayhap. Admittedly, the US cover artwork looks better than the Euro one I saw. It's like Ico à rebours.

Actually, I was joking about how it has a similar title to this movie, though I forgot that it's Homeward Bound: The Incredible Journey and not Homeward Bound: The Longest Journey.

What's the percentage of men that watch General Hospital?

I'm not sure, but I can't help but wonder if it rose a bit when they had a guy trying to take over the world with a weather machine on the show.

[Skykid]

Is she actually a gamer anyway? I mean, she doesn't seem to like much.

I mean, she said that Ico was sexist.

She's a shit researcher who likely barely plays through the games. That, or she has some warped sense of reality where she only perceives what she wants to believe.

It's what really made her complaining about Bayonetta and then praising her for being "a single mom" so irritating. Bayonetta isn't a mom. She isn't a parent, there's nothing to suggest she's ever even been pregnant. She runs into a kid that thinks Bayonetta is her mother (the kid is mistaken) and Bayonetta constantly complains about how she hates crying children, how kids are annoying, how she isn't her mom, how she hates babies but loves making 'em (witches understand the importance of contraceptives when it comes to sexual liberation I guess) and so on. Instead of praising her for being a sexually liberated and strong, self asserted character (as well as being a parody of hypersexualized fanservice characters at times all rolled into one) who spends the game beating up a patriarchal cult analogy of Christianity, Sarkeesian sees these all as negatives and chooses to praise some trait she's attributed to Bayonetta despite it being completely contradicted throughout the entire fucking game, so it's hard to understand how she could make this mistake without simply having not seriously made an attempt to play/understand the game.

spoiler: the kid, as it turns out, is actually Bayonetta herself, except time travelled into the future by her father in a weird plot to make her present self fit for being shoved into the eye of a goddess or something, her young self just sees her older self as 'mommy' because present Bayonetta happens to bear a striking resemblance to her actual mother

Good post, read it twice.

Everything Sarkeesian does is high school grade, but the second video was, to her credit, a lot better executed.

[trap15]

some warped sense of reality where she only perceives what she wants to believe.

Welcome to feminism!

[evil_ash_xero]

Is she actually a gamer anyway? I mean, she doesn't seem to like much.

I mean, she said that Ico was sexist.

That's not outrageous at all. I remember Greg Kasavin - who knows his shit - saying something similar. I like Ico, but I also think it's a bit icky gender-role-wise. I'm not confident enough to say it's outright sexist, but it's hovering on a line there.

Dude, if we get to the point where rescuing a girl in a game is sexist, then we're fucked.

And how in the fuck is Ico sexist? Are you kidding me? Just because a woman isn't shown as strong and kick ass and all that shit, that means it's sexist?

This is PC sensitivity to the nth degree.
And it's not that there's anything wrong with discussing sexism or racism(which is a FAR bigger issue in games...the Cole train makes me wince)..it's just that this is being rammed down our throats. Which is probably homophobic or something. And the boundaries are too broad. It's like EVERYTHING is sexist. If your game has a white male in it, it's sexist. Shit's ridiculous.

[Zerst]

Actually, 50% of gamers are now female.

That may be true in a very broad sense, but if we were to take out world of warcraft, farmville, call of duty, bejewelled blitz, pokemon, league of legends, and madden, I would be scared to bet money on that number being much more than 20%. And that modified number is what actually matters in this sort of situation, because I'd assume most of us don't care too much about those games. If the main character of Call of Duty: This Dog turned out to be Margaret Thatcher and she was featured prominently on the cover, it would still sell the same amount to the point where marketers wouldn't even flinch. Whereas if that was the case for any game that isn't guaranteed to sell billions to an apparently inelastic mass audience that I would, at the risk of sounding elitist, not consider to be cultured gamers, they'd think twice.

[Drum]

Is she actually a gamer anyway? I mean, she doesn't seem to like much.

I mean, she said that Ico was sexist.

That's not outrageous at all. I remember Greg Kasavin - who knows his shit - saying something similar. I like Ico, but I also think it's a bit icky gender-role-wise. I'm not confident enough to say it's outright sexist, but it's hovering on a line there.

Dude, if we get to the point where rescuing a girl in a game is sexist, then we're fucked.

And how in the fuck is Ico sexist? Are you kidding me? Just because a woman isn't shown as strong and kick ass and all that shit, that means it's sexist?

This is PC sensitivity to the nth degree.
And it's not that there's anything wrong with discussing sexism or racism(which is a FAR bigger issue in games...the Cole train makes me wince)..it's just that this is being rammed down our throats. Which is probably homophobic or something. And the boundaries are too broad. It's like EVERYTHING is sexist. If your game has a white male in it, it's sexist. Shit's ridiculous.

Calm down and re-read that post. You come off as a guy with serious issues.

[evil_ash_xero]

Yes, I have serious issues.

EDIT: That post sounded angrier than it should of. So, sorry. But I still stand by my opinion.

[Randorama]

She's a shit researcher who likely barely plays through the games. That, or she has some warped sense of reality where she only perceives what she wants to believe.

Well, the professionals (she is not, technically speaking) who are into "game theory" do precisely the same thing. I won't make names, but some leading "scholars" in the field (tenured professors in universities) try to apply, among other things, continental philosophy "theories" to, say, Super Mario Bros.

The results are...well, to extent ten times worse that this kid's videos. At least Sarkaseesian does not mention, say, mirror neurons to discuss the beauty of Grand Theft Auto while at the same time completely misrepresenting both subjects.

There is a reason on why Sokal wrote a mock paper to ridicule "the humanities", after all. I am actually surprised that she did not enroll in a graduate school, to outstanding academic success. The hate for facts that these people generally display in their output is impressive, but nothing new.