Should I be happy about new consoles?

[dcharlieJP]

Games have got to the point, in my humble opinion, where the graphics don't really need to improve beyond tightening up the frame rates to a consistent 60fps across the board

couldn't disagree more. X360 has been slugging along since late 2005 - this has been a waaaay too long gen and within the life span of the next gen we're going to see 4K and 8K become established (at least Japan will be onboard 4K in 2014-15 time frame for broadcasts, TV prices should be down etc).

720P 60fps at -todays- fidelity (texturing, fillrates, polycounts etc) would be massively disappointing.

From an RPG player perspective,

you wouldn't want an RPG that looks like the Deep Down demo? That's a fair bit beyond what we can get now and that's the sort of thing i'd be looking for in consoles though, in truth, as i'm looking for way more grunt than the consoles are going to provide i'm likely going full on PC Dad from here on out and perhaps get consoles for the odd exclusive.

What I don't want out of a console is pretty much everything that they are announcing... I don't want to be always online,

there's a hell of a lot to dislike though - completely agreed. That said - we need to get some clarification of what exactly is going on. Always on line for DRM is absolutely grim - even the "we meant log on once every 24 hours!" is pretty horrific. However, from an SE perspective there's a TON of new stuff you could do if a console is absolutely guaranteed to have to log on - full online game rentals for instance, persistant game worlds, meta games in dash, cloud offloading etc. Whilst a whole slew of "traditional" gamers probably don't care about most of that stuff there's still options out there to build something new and -if- that's part of the reasoning behind "always online" then , whilst DRM sucks, i can at least see some possible innovation.

Because if we were young we'd be dumb sheep who'd gladly let Microsoft and Sony lead us by the nose...

lets not forget Nintendo here - those pricks region locked a fecking handheld! And as for the WiiU - What HAVE they been doing for the last X years?!

[Cuilan]

Where did that come from?

It comes from the uneven distribution of the criticism you hand out. It's that unevenness that makes you look like a console fanboy.

Here, now you have a good opportunity to be equally critical:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=567973

Get to it!

[Skykid]

Where did that come from?

It comes from the uneven distribution of the criticism you hand out. It's that unevenness that makes you look like a console fanboy.

Here, now you have a good opportunity to be equally critical:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=567973

Get to it!

Lol, I'll expect you to give the same attention to your PS4 thread as your Xbone thread Friendly. Make sure you bump it and change the topic title to reflect PS4 DRM with used games.

[Ed Oscuro]

In all fairness that's really sketchy, and it's not clear what Sony's stance on it is. Yoshida seemed to be pretty clear earlier (as far as he goes) in stating that they wouldn't have it. So it does seem that if they did have it, there's a good chance they're moving off it now. And if they didn't have it, there's no need for a reversal of position. It's not a popular time to be rolling out newly restrictive DRM strategies.

[Drachenherz]

Fuck the next gen for the moment. The only thing that could sway me to adopt early to the new consoles would be a perfect integration of the Oculus Rift Consumer Version... But until it's out, I guess that I'll have bought a new powerful PC until then...

[Skykid]

In all fairness that's really sketchy, and it's not clear what Sony's stance on it is. Yoshida seemed to be pretty clear earlier (as far as he goes) in stating that they wouldn't have it. So it does seem that if they did have it, there's a good chance they're moving off it now. And if they didn't have it, there's no need for a reversal of position. It's not a popular time to be rolling out newly restrictive DRM strategies.

Actually, after watching MS dig themselves an early grave over the last week, Sony would be complete idiots to miss such an amazing opportunity to go the other way and win the userbase. Stupider shit has happened in the corporate world however, so I'm holding my breath.

[Friendly]

In all fairness that's really sketchy, and it's not clear what Sony's stance on it is. Yoshida seemed to be pretty clear earlier (as far as he goes) in stating that they wouldn't have it. So it does seem that if they did have it, there's a good chance they're moving off it now. And if they didn't have it, there's no need for a reversal of position. It's not a popular time to be rolling out newly restrictive DRM strategies.

Exactly. Geoff Keighley does not work for Sony. For Xbone, the official stance was explained by Microsoft's spokespersons. For PS4, we still don't know the details, other than the fact Sony has publically stated that online will not be required to play PS4 games. That alone should make a used-game property control scheme like MS has planned for Xbone impossible.

[neorichieb1971]

When Sony anounced the PS4 they said they consulted the 1st/2nd party studios so that they could build their own dream machine.

But nobody asks us what we want. When has a console manufacturer ever done a poll or a questionaire to find out what people want in a console? For PS1/2, I felt they were on the right track. But PS3/Move/Vita/WiiU/Xbone all have things in them that I hardly doubt their target audience would have put at the top of the list of priorities.

That is the biggest problem. What we have is the execs thinking they have something amazing but what they really have is a console trying to pretend to be something else.

I also believe that gamers short change themselves by buying all these samey samey shooters, racers, sports games. You think its hard for the developers to make those games, but the truth is they are pretty good at making them right now. I'd like to see how much code changes between iterations. I can probably guess that it isn't much.

[Friendly]

Oh, LOL.
I just remembered who Geoff Keighley is.

The Doritos Pope.

Video Game Journalism

[GaijinPunch]

I remember a time, not too long ago, in which a new generation of consoles was a time for excitement/celebration/etc.

I long for these days.

[Skykid]

I remember a time, not too long ago, in which a new generation of consoles was a time for excitement/celebration/etc.

I long for these days.

It's all over homeboy!

[charlie chong]

just buy a gaming pc.the games are cheaper(albeit they have drm),free multiplayer plus there is just as much faux retro indie game nonsense as xboks and playedoutstation.
just one mod/game i play called dayz has kept me occcupied every night since last august. i must of clocked over 600+ hrs on that game easily because it has no story and is a great freeform sandbox multiplayer experience with unique shit happening all the time..
i can't think of many japanese imports apart from shooters that i bought for the last generation anyway.
saying that i do hate all forms of rpg so if your a jrpg lover i could see why you would want a next generation console as that would be the only way to get those type of games.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I remember a time, not too long ago, in which a new generation of consoles was a time for excitement/celebration/etc.

I long for these days.

I heard this longing goes away at the age of 40.

[ZellSF]

there's a hell of a lot to dislike though - completely agreed. That said - we need to get some clarification of what exactly is going on. Always on line for DRM is absolutely grim - even the "we meant log on once every 24 hours!" is pretty horrific. However, from an SE perspective there's a TON of new stuff you could do if a console is absolutely guaranteed to have to log on - full online game rentals for instance, persistant game worlds, meta games in dash, cloud offloading etc. Whilst a whole slew of "traditional" gamers probably don't care about most of that stuff there's still options out there to build something new and -if- that's part of the reasoning behind "always online" then , whilst DRM sucks, i can at least see some possible innovation.

On a closed console we can already do full online game rentals (see: Sony trusting their time limiter on PS+ games).

Persistent game worlds? We already have that. MMORPGs have been done on consoles.

"Cloud offloading". I have no clue what this means, I've yet to talk to anyone who does. I don't think a marketing term with no clear definition is something you should be optimistic about.

[sjewkestheloon]

Games have got to the point, in my humble opinion, where the graphics don't really need to improve beyond tightening up the frame rates to a consistent 60fps across the board

couldn't disagree more. X360 has been slugging along since late 2005 - this has been a waaaay too long gen and within the life span of the next gen we're going to see 4K and 8K become established (at least Japan will be onboard 4K in 2014-15 time frame for broadcasts, TV prices should be down etc).

720P 60fps at -todays- fidelity (texturing, fillrates, polycounts etc) would be massively disappointing.

From an RPG player perspective,

you wouldn't want an RPG that looks like the Deep Down demo? That's a fair bit beyond what we can get now and that's the sort of thing i'd be looking for in consoles though, in truth, as i'm looking for way more grunt than the consoles are going to provide i'm likely going full on PC Dad from here on out and perhaps get consoles for the odd exclusive.

Hope I haven't messed up the quoting there.

Sure it would be nice if the graphics improve, but my point is that, in my opinion, they don't need to to impact gameplay in a meaningful way. Sure I would like my RPGs to have nicer graphics, but when I look at my list of priorities, graphical improvements are pretty low down. Unity of theme and consistency of graphics is important to me in my RPGs but textures that are 20x more detailed and perfect facial animations are passingly impressive for five minutes until I get to the meat of a game.

Beyond the jump from PS1, where most 3D graphics hurt my face to the PS2, where frame rates started to come together and characters stopped looking like cardboard boxes, graphical improvement has been the least important aspect in any console launch.

[xgunnBlaze]

I used to get really excited about new console launches, but today they're just toaster ovens that play games. The handheld is really all that's left of any interest. I'd rather have a Vita than an Xbone.

Great video game crash of 2014, come forth and eradicate.

Pretty much this. All we can do now is hope for the best with the PS4 and that they don't enforce any DRM. WiiU is also okay though.

I fear that the consoles themselves may sway the direction of gaming due to Call of Duty players who are seemingly satisfied with whatever shit-flavored soup is served to them, which will make anti-consumer practices popular and effectively kill the incentive to make good games.

[system11]

I used to get really excited about new console launches, but today they're just toaster ovens that play games. The handheld is really all that's left of any interest. I'd rather have a Vita than an Xbone.

Great video game crash of 2014, come forth and eradicate.

Pretty much this. All we can do now is hope for the best with the PS4 and that they don't enforce any DRM. WiiU is also okay though.

I fear that the consoles themselves may sway the direction of gaming due to Call of Duty players who are seemingly satisfied with whatever shit-flavored soup is served to them, which will make anti-consumer practices popular and effectively kill the incentive to make good games.

Why is it always Call Of Duty taking the blame? People buying that are one of the last groups of game players who realise frame rate matters.

[TransatlanticFoe]

The console has been on a hiding to nothing since the Dreamcast.

Prior to that, PCs were always too expensive and still do have cross-hardware compatibility problems. So it made sense for a bespoke bit of kit. You also had arcade ports as major selling points (see Sega's only marketing strategy, ever). Now the arcades are dead and PCs are cheap.

What's the point of a console then?

1. Innovation
2. Standardised hardware for the console's lifecycle

You've got the PC market leading the way for memory, hard drives and meaty graphics cards. All hamstrung by them basically playing upscaled, often poor optimised, ports from 6 year old PC hardware (i.e. PS360). Where's left for the console to innovate? Wii remote, Kinect, Move, the Wii U tablet. They're all interpretations on another way to play a game. A more radical interpretation is mobile gaming - it's a different way to play.

What do you need a new generation of consoles for? More advanced game engines. We might finally have a character in a video game with half-realistic teeth whose jacket doesn't magically pass throw desks and walls. Does it really matter when all you're using it for is Gears of Duty 15 or the latest dumbed-down sports affair? Shit plays the same these days. FPS play like FPS. Nintendo plays like Nintendo. Yeah sometimes you get something truly special but it's never really new anymore. The story is 90% of the game and if you're lucky there's some originality or a twist you saw coming because the game's telling you you're 43% in and a twist is literally the only way the thing is going to progress. But we're happy with that. We always have been. It's just variations on a theme - 2D platformers, scrolling shmups. Whatever is seen as the "most advanced" form of game for the time.

The thing is, a new console now will just result in flashier looking games. 16 bit to 32 bit brought about 3D rendering (properly, not bare bones like Starwing and Virtua Racing). DC/PS2/GC/Xbox built on that and made it look good with a decent framerate and draw distance. The next gen improved on that again. What's the point of a next gen now? You have to do something different - hence the weird hardware angles. Otherwise there's literally no point. Well, you could try something different with the games but then the same old shit is selling just fine so why risk change?

[dcharlieJP]

Cloud offloading". I have no clue what this means, I've yet to talk to anyone who does. I don't think a marketing term with no clear definition is something you should be optimistic about.

Let's be clear here - i'm -not- particularly optimitstic about the X1 at all and at this point i'm more likely to just skip and get a PC.

Cloud offloading / cloud gaming - you can render games at a server farm and communicate the input between the cloud service and the host machine. Basically Onlive but with more horsepower meaning you can theoretically render higher quality than the host machine is capable of + a touch of lag which is obviously going to be problematic for some games. Cloud Offloading - *theoretically* you can pass on some of the processing tasks or processing cycles to the cloud. I don't particularly see how this is going to work though theoretically the Sony's PS3 Cell had a similar experimental stab at it too. Again, i don't think it's possible in any meaningful way right now and this is more marketing bumf but the point is more that there -are- posibilities with an always online console outside of it just being solely for DRM.

[GaijinPunch]

I remember a time, not too long ago, in which a new generation of consoles was a time for excitement/celebration/etc.

I long for these days.

I heard this longing goes away at the age of 40.

I'll let you know in 2 years. I'm definitely not feeling any love for the hobby of games lately. Probably b/c real life has kind of been full on for the last few years. I pop in something every now and again, but I ironically I don't have the wits to play a Cave shooter competitively, for example.

[BryanM]

Long description of Clouds

Cloud - cla-ood

1. A way of running software on a device grossly underpowered to do so otherwise, while you have a broadband connection fast enough to handle video instead. In practice, doesn't fucking work and will never work. Your eyePhone can already run Dig-Dug just fine. Famous investor scam On Live is the shining example. The entire thing has a bright future in history alongside the hydrogen powered car and the umbrella plane.

2. Your DRM check is now done remotely instead of locally, so you don't have to waste your own precious megahurtz.

I'm thinking it'll be more 2 than 1.

[null1024]

Long description of Clouds

Cloud - cla-ood

1. A way of running software on a device grossly underpowered to do so otherwise, while you have a broadband connection fast enough to handle video instead. In practice, doesn't fucking work and will never work. Your eyePhone can already run Dig-Dug just fine. Famous investor scam On Live is the shining example. The entire thing has a bright future in history alongside the hydrogen powered car and the umbrella plane.

Man, there was a time when I did think it would work, but then I realized: unless you can somehow get sub 30ms ping across the internet and you have high bandwidth for decent quality video, it's not going to be worth it.

also, things to laugh at:
OnLive offers Street Fighter 4.

[Obiwanshinobi]

No matter how you look at it, high-tech real-time graphics take a high-tech computing machine somewhere, that must be powered and cooled. Ain't gonna be cheap. Lagless (u-huh), loseless audio-video streaming won't make it any cheaper. Will portability be worth it? Only if games will be more fun to play than GB oldies (good luck with that).

[neorichieb1971]

I think I should make a thread about "What I did like about consoles!"

I'll get some pics up if I get some free time. Explaining about what makes a game feel special without it costing the Earth to make.

We will see if anyone here can relate to what I can't put into words.

[dcharlieJP]

Man, there was a time when I did think it would work, but then I realized: unless you can somehow get sub 30ms ping across the internet and you have high bandwidth for decent quality video, it's not going to be worth it.

I was surpised at how well Onlive -did- work - obviously it's not going to work for twitch gamers but even with a connection from Japan to US the games on there were certainly playable though i mainly tried bottom feeder FPS stuff.

To clarify - i'm not advocating this -at all- i'm simply pointing out that there are possibilities with an "online always" machine that we don't have with an offline one. I'm not banner waving for it, i'm simply pointing out that it doesn't have to -just- be for DRM. Given the entire console is apparently built around the server farm i'd be surprised if MS was stupid enough to -just- use it as DRM - even if the reasoning for that is that i expect someone in a suit in a board room to have brought up something like "hey, but how do we incentivise this!" ... though as i type that i get that sinking feeling when i realise the answer was possibly "We give em a TV companion thing!"

[Ed Oscuro]

It will be interesting to see what tasks could be meaningfully offloaded from the new consoles (for a hybrid processing situation, where the console is still doing a fair amount of work). Personally, I don't want that - it'll mean higher game costs and possibly higher fees for online play. However, that technology is at the point where it seems usable is quite an achievement.

[Hagane]

Haven't really felt the need to buy a console since the PS1 era really. Most of what I care about is arcade or PC stuff. There are very very few games I like in current consoles that are not on PC (like Vanquish or Tekken Tag Tournament 2), so I can't justify buying one for so few games. If they never get a PC port I'll get them and the console much later for dirt cheap, but right now I have so much good stuff to play on PC that I can't really care less about PS4, XB1, WiiU and whatever. The console market could crash tomorrow and it would make no difference to me.

The only consoles that seem to get lots of interesting games nowadays are handhelds.