PS4 / Xbox One console war

[Ed Oscuro]

That's not in dispute, but it would be silly of them not to try and find a way to stay relevant in the new system.

As the links I posted said - they say their prospectus is up after the Xbox One reveal (??) and we also find out that game resales will send more money back to Microsoft and publishers of games.

[xgunnBlaze]

Microsoft aims for 1 billion lifetime Xbox One sales



I guess they really have gone mad...

They said that about the Xbox 360, too.

[BryanM]

So a (possibly fake?) story making the rounds is MS trying to get a patent on achievements.

For watching TV.

[Moniker]

So a (possibly fake?) story making the rounds is MS trying to get a patent on achievements.

For watching TV.

I daresay I deserve some achievements for the amount of America's Next Top Model I've had to endure.

[Phellan Wolf]

The more news I read and the more is known about this retarded route is MS carrying out the more I dislike the system.
Dude I think I am gonna retire from this hobby, well at least we still have the WiiU

[Skykid]

@JI,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Your angle is unusual to say the least. You seem to have realigned the meaning of many of points to fit a mould for a different argument entirely (one non-specific to the 'damaging to console gaming' topic we started with.)

To clarify, I'll run through your points.

Gimmicks as opposed to what? Competitive companies doing 100% of zero to offer any kind of innovation to videogaming whatsoever?

I believe the main task and duty of console manufacturers lies in providing developers with hardware that presents a quantitative leap in power over previous consoles, which in its turn allows for software innovation and experiences that would`ve been unrealizable on weaker hardware. That`s how it has been and that`s how it will be. People didn`t get excited for SNES, PSX, Dreamcast and others because of controllers or some gimmicky nonsense. It`s always the generational leap in power that got people excited and helped advance videogames as a medium.

So you believe progressive gaming is about a quantitive leap in power? Sorry, we couldn't disagree more. I've seen absolutely nothing from turning consoles into high-end PC's that has done anything to meaningfully develop videogaming as a medium.

I believed power was a necessity to further gaming during the leap from 16 to 32-bit eras, when 3D technology was becoming a reality that offered new types of gaming experiences. Since then increased graphical and processing outputs have done little creatively than push the entire industry into a rut. I can only assume you're in the camp that thinks an FPS or racing simulation with improved hardware power equals a new gaming experience. That doesn't work for me, and never will. I believe creativity is something different altogether, and power contributes very little to harnessing it. Random example: Groove Coaster & its utilisation of the iOS interface.

No-one needs reminding Sony can't even muster a new controller after forever in the business.

This has more to do with ergonomics than innovation. A controller is a means of registering a player`s inputs and sending them to the hardware. You can reshape it, change the buttons layout, but the general function will remain the same.

Oh come now, really?

Some of the most important advancements in gaming have come from the interface. Just look at the journey of the arcade, the humble pad leaping between NES, SFC and Sega Saturn iterations, and how that changed the way developers could shape home experiences. The N64 completely changed the way gaming could work dimensionally, and was a hugely important milestone that still echoes in the thumbsticks of today - as was the Gamecube with its twin stick interface.

I really can't believe you're writing off the controller as having no impact on the way gaming is furthered creatively. I think it's probably the most important aspect of all - far more so than additional RAM and transistors.

You're looking in hindsight at what the Wii became: a family oriented console - exactly what Nintendo have striven to achieve since the Famicom. You're not paying it any dues for the innovation of the interface from the outset, when it had to take a big risk in an increasingly boring market.

Now why I would I give any credit for something that hindered most games it was forcefully applied to? "Look, we`ve made you shake the Wiimote every time you want to do a roll in Donkey Kong Country Returns to justify the existence of our innovative controller. Don`t you like it?" The history showed this "innovation" to be a fluke and a fad with even Nintendo pretty much giving up on it for their new system.

Unusual. You're citing an example (or assumed examples) of games where the Wiimote was used in a gimmicky fashion. Yes, they existed, and no, they weren't necessary. I can think of very few Wii titles I played where I considered the Wii and nunchuk interface to be such an issue. As Louisg put it, it's a comfortable and enjoyable setup that changed the way actions could be performed in games. For example, in the original Galaxy it was quite enjoyable to do all your running and jumping, and then use the sensor to sweep up stars. In Zelda it was terrific to go into a 1st person view and suddenly point the remote at the screen to have pinpoint firing accuracy. In Sin and Punishment 2... well it was a match made in heaven - an experience that wouldn't be possible any other way.

"The history showed this "innovation" to be a fluke and a fad with even Nintendo pretty much giving up on it for their new system."

Help me. As aforementioned, every controller innovation Nintendo have ever produced remains in the controllers of today. D-pads, thumbsticks, twin-sticks, pressure sensitive buttons, triggers, and sensors.

Sensor controllers, PS Move, Kinect.

If it's a fluke, like all of Nintendo's other innovations, it's here to stay.

I have noted you're a fan of JRPG's and the ilk, one of the most hackneyed genres in existence today.

If you`re so observing, you could`ve noted that I don`t have a preference of one genre over another(I`d play a football manager provided it`s a good football manager). I don`t know where you got the impression that I favored RPGs(JRPGs no less) over other genres.

I didn't say you favoured them over other genres, I said I noted that you're a 'fan of the games and similar'.
I got that impression from the lists you post. They make up a large proportion of your recommendations.

Discussing this is completely off-topic so let's put a full stop on it.

As a devoted retro gamer...

Perhaps this is not the time and place for this, but it`s something that`s been bothering me for a while... For the life of me I`ll never understand why people take so much pride in labeling themselves "retro". This mentality locks one into a mindset when everything is viewed through the prism of nostalgia and things are dismissed and rejected outright for being new and not conforming to the accepted norms and order of the past. Rose-tinted glasses are permanently on and the result is that one is no longer capable of assessing things critically. Why do that? If you are really passionate about videogames as a form of media, wouldn`t it be better to not limit yourself in such a way?

Again, highly unusual way of tackling responses, especially for you.

I didn't say I'm wearing a badge of retro pride: the form of the sentence was that I could appreciate your passion for JRPG's because it comes from an era I have a vested interest in.

Of course I play current gen. I've played enough of it that it's been coming out of my ears (trust me), and most of it has been a barrel-load of generic garbage with the odd exception now and then. We're discussing the Wii, we've been discussing the 3DS... and we're off-topic again. Not sure why you're cherry picking things off the end of sentences and forming new arguments. I don't need anyone assessing my critical faculties because I enjoy playing classics: give me a Mario 3D Land, a Psychonauts, an Ace Attorney, a Wipeout, a Gears of War or a Journey worth it's salt and I'll pay them their dues.

Mums playing tennis, hardcore gamers playing Sin & Punishment 2, and everyone enjoying the Galaxy series, surely one of the highest points of the last decade.

I guess it wasn`t completely worthless, yes. If that`s what you`re trying to say, I agree.

Considering the revenue it generated, far from worthless. But that's from a business perspective. Personally I don't like Kinect, Friendly seems to like PS Move (unsurprisingly), but it looks as though the sensor as a development in the way games are played is cemented for the time being. So as a creative interface it hasn't proved worthless either.

For want of a better explanation, the sensor may not have revolutionised gaming as we know it, but it dared to be different, and it worked.

If it had worked, it would be the default method of input in home consoles now. It isn`t.

Except, as mentioned several times, it's a default feature of all current and future home consoles. Correct? Therefore it's an innovation that has changed the landscape of gaming beyond the Wii, and not a one off or fluke.

Honestly, Nintendo are the only innovators left in the industry.

Couldn`t be any further from the truth. But if you mostly stick to Nintendo`s stuff for your modern gaming fix and avoid everything else, eventually you start believing they are the best in the business, yeah.

I'm surprised at such a narrow point of view. I've played less Nintendo than I have PS3 and Xbox 360 games in the last decade, but if you genuinely believe that other companies have offered more in the way of innovation than Nintendo, there's no reasoning with you, and it's pointless to try. Your definition of innovation is obviously completely different to mine. I think it means changing the way we play games and allowing for new types of games to be created, you think it means processing power and an expansion of graphical/system complexity? Is that right?

Yes, online has become a part of modern gaming, no it's not an innovation

The way online has been seamlessly integrated into the already excellent single-player experience of Demon`s Souls and Dark Souls and managed to enhance it in the process is the one true innovation of this console generation.

But it's not an innovation at all. Online has been going on PC's for donkey's years, offering almost the exact same experiences. You don't need XBL to play fighting games, Dungeon Crawlers and FPS's with other people, it's just you can now do it on a console in addition to a PC. Don't really consider that an innovation, sorry, it's just an architectural advancement.

and outside of XBL I've never seen it done well on a console apart from the DS line

You wouldn`t know if you don`t play.

Personal experience.

Worst of PSN:

SFIV - Couldn't get a game. When I did get a game, lag city and crashed out after several rounds. Night and day compared to XBL.
KOFXII - As above.

Best of PSN:

Wipeout - Mostly smooth races. Took ages to get races set up, but it varied. For the most part was secure.
Journey - Seamless for the most part, but then you can't necessarily tell if there's a blip because of the way it funnels new players into your game. But for me it was smooth as butter.

Best of console online:

XBL. Most reliable, best interface.

And DS online is one of the worst things in existence. With no support for WAP security protocol it`s practically useless(who the hell has their routers on WEP?).

At the time of release I had no issues with it. Played Mario Kart until the sun came up with folks from all over the world, no trouble. Tech is better now, but it seemed to do better online than my PSP did in local link settings.

The fact is the franchise might be fucking old, but the quality of some of those games pretty much carpet bombs everything else in the known vicinity. For that, franchise whoring can have a pass.

Cool. I personally can`t stand the sight of the plumber anymore.

And I think that's an apt summary of your views regarding Nintendo generally: you find them a turn off. It's not just you. Louisg made a valid point earlier that since gaming 'grew up' (hah!) people have been finding reasons to whine like babies about Nintendo games being for babies. A complete load of tosh. The only civilised nation I can think of that doesn't harbour this completely inane prejudice is Japan, unsurprisingly, since they know a good videogame when they see one, and boy, will they buy it in the truckload. They'd much rather have a good Luigi's Mansion than a GTA, and so would I.

However, if you're firmly in the camp that can't stand the sight of Nintendo 'cos they make games for little girls, you'll never be in a mindset to consider them capable of anything else.

[Ed Oscuro]

I haven't played a Mario game in so long (discounting Mario vs. Donkey Kong) that Luigi's Mansion and SM Sunshine will feel fresh if I ever get around to trying them.

[Friendly]

It's simple how used games work, I read an article about it the other day.
Game discs are shipped with a printed activation code. After you get a game, you have to insert the disc, go online with your Xbone, then input the code after which the game is installed to Xbone's 500GB hdd. Only after this procedure you can play the game.
The game can only be resold at specific retail chains that partner up with Microsoft, for instance Gamestop. Every time a game is resold, Gamestop reportedly gets 10% of the price, while Micorsoft and the publisher also get a cut. After you sell the game, it is deactivated from your account and no longer playable on your Xbone. This is the reason why there are madatory online checks in 24h intervals.

There is no way to privately transfer ownership of games. It is not possible to privately sell games (eg. on ebay or a forum like this), or to borrow/lend/give away used games.

So after the generation has ended and the infrastructure is gone, you will be xboned.

[Specineff]

No way to de-authorize the game on my Xbone so I can sell it the way I can with other pieces of software on PCs, for example? If that's the case, MS is double-dipping (or tenth-dipping?). Where could they have gotten that monopolistic idea? Oh, wait...

In all seriousness, this is just asking for another anti-trust suit. With a huge target on their backs.

[Friendly]

If you could just de-authorize the games yourself, you wouldn't need the whole authorization process in the first place and MS and the publishers wouldn't get a cut of the resales.

"Xbone: All your games are belong to us."

[LtC]

It's simple how used games work, I read an article about it the other day.
Game discs are shipped with a printed activation code. After you get a game, you have to insert the disc, go online with your Xbone, then input the code after which the game is installed to Xbone's 500GB hdd. Only after this procedure you can play the game.
The game can only be resold at specific retail chains that partner up with Microsoft, for instance Gamestop. Every time a game is resold, Gamestop reportedly gets 10% of the price, while Micorsoft and the publisher also get a cut. After you sell the game, it is deactivated from your account and no longer playable on your Xbone. This is the reason why there are madatory online checks in 24h intervals.

There is no way to privately transfer ownership of games. It is not possible to sell games (eg. on ebay or a forum like this), or to borrow/lend/give away used games.

So after the generation has ended and the infrastructure is gone, you will be xboned.

I don't know how it is in the US but I'm quite sure this is illegal at least in the EU. Here is a precedent from last year:
http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs ... 0094en.pdf

[Teufel_in_Blau]

I've seen absolutely nothing from turning consoles into high-end PC's that has done anything to meaningfully develop videogaming as a medium.

I believed power was a necessity to further gaming during the leap from 16 to 32-bit eras, when 3D technology was becoming a reality that offered new types of gaming experiences. Since then increased graphical and processing outputs have done little creatively than push the entire industry into a rut.

I just want to partly disagree on this part. High-end PC are the only reason why games like Distant Worlds are even possible. You simply need all the processing power to accomplish the possibility to play this game in real time, especially with HUGE galaxies. Another example would be some of the grand strategy titles from Paradox. Try playing Hearts of Iron III on a PC from the PS2 era.

Speaking of the PS2, remember Ketsui? A 2D game and it wasn't possible for Arika to make it work on it without major downgrading.

Power is not something you only need for graphics.

But, and here comes the part where I agree with you, the reason you are don't seeing much meaningful coming out of turning the consoles into PCs is simply because of the input hardware. There is only just so much you can do with a controller and few buttons. So MS MIGHT be onto something with Kinect.

Personally, I prefer my PC games to stay PC'ish and my console games to stay consol'ish.

But nonetheless, to stay on topic: XBONE IS SHIT AND I HOPE IT WILL BE A GIGANTIC FLOP!

[Udderdude]

I don't know how it is in the US but I'm quite sure this is illegal at least in the EU. Here is a precedent from last year:
http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs ... 0094en.pdf

"Durrrrrr we only sold you a license to play the game!"

Cue 1 billion dicks slapping Microsoft in the face.

[neorichieb1971]

Console manufacturers up the ante on power every 5-10 years to give you a false sense of hope that what your buying in some way makes the previous generation obsolete.

Its laughable how many times they iterate bollocks like "the only limits are the power of imagination" when the real limit is "we will only make these types of games because that what sells". You end up buying the same types of games regardless.

I once heard a gamer say "I want a new pong game with up to date graphics". The reply was "Tennis is pong" and therefore the matter went no further. But Tennis works on basic rules and principles that Pong doesn't have to. Its also over complicating an arcade game that should remain relatively simple. Therefore I argue that pong should/could be updated without it looking like Tennis. Even though the basic principles are roughly the same.

Sticking with pong, the rotary knob is still the best input. Its frightening that nobody in 25 years has released a dedicated rotary knob input for consoles and released said games for it. There is a lot you can do with a knob, especially if its bright red.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Your angle is unusual to say the least. You seem to have realigned the meaning of many of points to fit a mould for a different argument entirely (one non-specific to the 'damaging to console gaming' topic we started with.)

But my original point had nothing to do with Nintendo being somehow damaging to gaming.

I can only assume you're in the camp that thinks an FPS or racing simulation with improved hardware power equals a new gaming experience. That doesn't work for me, and never will.

If I thought incremental improvements in graphics, physics and animation equaled true gameplay innovation, I`d have said that. I said that increased hardware power allowed for new experiences that wouldn`t have been possible before. If you need concrete examples, here`s a few: Demon`s Souls, Red Dead Redemption, S.T.A.L.K.E.R, Minecraft.

I really can't believe you're writing off the controller as having no impact on the way gaming is furthered creatively. I think it's probably the most important aspect of all - far more so than additional RAM and transistors.

But you digress. What is it that Sony should do with the Dualshock that would make it innovative to you short of ditching it in favor of something else entirely? And for what reason? Is practicality even a concern here?

but if you genuinely believe that other companies have offered more in the way of innovation than Nintendo, there's no reasoning with you, and it's pointless to try.

Of course I do. Because I actually played the games made by those other companies unlike you!!! For God`s sake, Skykid, get out of Nintendo`s ghetto and play G̶u̶w̶a̶n̶g̶e̶ Demon`s Souls, Deadly Premonition, Dark Souls, Amnesia, Tokyo Jungle, Monster Hunter, S.T.A.L.K.E.R and many other experiences that you`ve willingly barricaded yourself from. It`ll be the first albeit small step on the long road of repentance that lies ahead of you.

But it's not an innovation at all. Online has been going on PC's for donkey's years, offering almost the exact same experiences. You don't need XBL to play fighting games, Dungeon Crawlers and FPS's with other people, it's just you can now do it on a console in addition to a PC. Don't really consider that an innovation, sorry, it's just an architectural advancement.

How do you know that when you obviously haven`t played these games? Just play Dark Souls and repent, really.

However, if you're firmly in the camp that can't stand the sight of Nintendo 'cos they make games for little girls, you'll never be in a mindset to consider them capable of anything else.

I`m firmly in the camp that believes they`ve been playing it increasingly safe over the years and flooding the market with tired, unimaginative, rehashed crap like SML3D and NSMB instead of investing in the development of ingenious new IPs like how Pikmin and Metroid Prime were when they first came out.

[Friendly]

[BIL]

Sticking with pong, the rotary knob is still the best input. Its frightening that nobody in 25 years has released a dedicated rotary knob input for consoles and released said games for it. There is a lot you can do with a knob, especially if its bright red.

Namco did produce a dedicated volume knob controller for the PS1. Shit owns in Puchi Carat and Arkanoid Returns. Its knob is even bright red.

[Friendly]

Sticking with pong, the rotary knob is still the best input. Its frightening that nobody in 25 years has released a dedicated rotary knob input for consoles and released said games for it. There is a lot you can do with a knob, especially if its bright red.

Namco did produce a dedicated volume knob controller for the PS1. Shit owns in Puchi Carat and Arkanoid Returns. Its knob is even bright red.

And there is a nob controller for DS, too.

[cj iwakura]

Whole ton of edits of this making the rounds.

Humble contribution:

[Jonathan Ingram]

^
Where`s the joke? It is more fun watching Metal Wolf Chaos being played by someone else than actually playing it yourself. The game`s later levels are a pain in the ass and really not that much fun at all.

[Udderdude]

There should be a Metal Wolf Chaos TV series .. screw that Halo shit :O

[Jonathan Ingram]

With the same quality script and dialogues as the game!

[cj iwakura]

^
Where`s the joke? It is more fun watching Metal Wolf Chaos being played by someone else than actually playing it yourself. The game`s later levels are a pain in the ass and really not that much fun at all.

Well I want to play it...

[Skykid]

But my original point had nothing to do with Nintendo being somehow damaging to gaming.

Okay, you said they had done nothing to contribute to console gaming, which based on the evidence I can only disagree with.

If I thought incremental improvements in graphics, physics and animation equaled true gameplay innovation, I`d have said that. I said that increased hardware power allowed for new experiences that wouldn`t have been possible before. If you need concrete examples, here`s a few: Demon`s Souls, Red Dead Redemption, S.T.A.L.K.E.R, Minecraft.

Where do you get the idea I haven't played anything current gen bar Nintendo games? I already said the Wii was the console I spent least time with this gen, I'm not making it up. My time with Demon's was brief but enjoyable, and I greatly enjoyed playing through the entirety of Red Dead, an evolution of an existing franchise doing the rounds before the Wii ever existed. I've played more current gen than I probably would have liked tbh, and not entirely of my own volition.

This isn't on topic either. Again.

But you digress. What is it that Sony should do with the Dualshock that would make it innovative to you short of ditching it in favor of something else entirely? And for what reason? Is practicality even a concern here?

I'm not sure how signifying a continuing trend of innovation in interface, reshaping the way games can be played, is a digression. You are aware the wiimote is very successful in what it does?

Practicality is of course a concern, precisely the reason the Dual Shock is so painfully out of date. Its design has done nothing to further the way games can be approached by player or developer. It's become a restriction that has kept gaming in a stagnant mould for some time. Against all odds, Microsoft came up with something superior, if not particularly interesting - but it makes cross format games more pleasurable on their system.

Of course I do. Because I actually played the games made by those other companies unlike you!!! For God`s sake, Skykid, get out of Nintendo`s ghetto and play G̶u̶w̶a̶n̶g̶e̶ Demon`s Souls, Deadly Premonition, Dark Souls, Amnesia, Tokyo Jungle, Monster Hunter, S.T.A.L.K.E.R and many other experiences that you`ve willingly barricaded yourself from. It`ll be the first albeit small step on the long road of repentance that lies ahead of you.

Again I don't know what you're talking about (Guwange, wat? )

I`m firmly in the camp that believes they`ve been playing it increasingly safe over the years and flooding the market with tired, unimaginative, rehashed crap like SML3D

Well that draws a nice close to that conversation. If SML3D is tired, unimaginative crap, there's no hope left for gaming. At all.

[BryanM]

It is a naive way of looking at games. They're just a product you come back to when you're in the mood - you don't eat when you're full.

Expecting "revolutions" in media... just so weird. "I read 20 Nancy Drew novels back to back, now all books suck."

[BulletMagnet]

It's simple how used games work, I read an article about it the other day.

MS is saying that the aforementioned report is "inaccurate and incomplete" and insisting that "Xbox One is designed to support the trade in and resale of games", but says more details will have to wait until later.

EDIT: This article claims sources which have said that you won't need to pay a fee to play used games, but that the consoles will perform "regular" authentication checks on them; as the writer notes, though, it sounds like MS themselves haven't quite reached an official conclusion on this matter yet.

[Zaarock]

"Xbox One is designed to support the trade in and resale of games", but says more details will have to wait until later.

"...from a publisher standpoint."

[Ed Oscuro]

Sounds like Microsoft noticed the public reaction was less than keen and are backpedaling furiously.

[stryc9]

Well fuck me, they couldn't have made this console more unappealing if they tried - both its physical shape and proposed features are absolutely repugnant to me as a gamer.

Here was the opportunity to make some twisted alien-looking thing with sexy high-tech curves and they squandered it with this monstrosity, which has about as much personality as a lump of coal.

But it's not surprising, as other people have correctly asserted, it's not really even a game console anymore, strictly speaking

Still, as always, it's where the good games go to find a home that decides the purchase. I think we all learnt that the hard way this current gen with the whole 'no shooters on PS3' debacle.

[dave4shmups]

It's simple how used games work, I read an article about it the other day.
Game discs are shipped with a printed activation code. After you get a game, you have to insert the disc, go online with your Xbone, then input the code after which the game is installed to Xbone's 500GB hdd. Only after this procedure you can play the game.
The game can only be resold at specific retail chains that partner up with Microsoft, for instance Gamestop. Every time a game is resold, Gamestop reportedly gets 10% of the price, while Micorsoft and the publisher also get a cut. After you sell the game, it is deactivated from your account and no longer playable on your Xbone. This is the reason why there are madatory online checks in 24h intervals.

There is no way to privately transfer ownership of games. It is not possible to privately sell games (eg. on ebay or a forum like this), or to borrow/lend/give away used games.

So after the generation has ended and the infrastructure is gone, you will be xboned.

So you can't trade them in at Gamestop? I'm assuming that that would be privately transferring them over to Gamestop, but I'm not sure.