How long does it takes to get a World Record?

[endoKarb]

I've also seen people saying that having multiple Lunatic No-Bomb runs of some of the harder games in the series is "nothing special" and just requires a time investment - e.g. anyone could do them. This may be true, but it's still an accomplishment that requires a great deal of skill and time investment, and it's worth recognizing that. I think the good players are so used to being able to play at a high level that they don't recognize how remarkable that, in itself, is. Consequently they tend to undervalue their own accomplishments, and by extension, those of others. I can see some of this in myself, too. I'm very disappointed with Dragon Blaze runs that only make it to the 2-1 boss, but for most people, even making it that tiny bit into the loop would be remarkable.

What? You want people to be praised for playing videogames a lot? What is this even I don't know.

I tried really hard writing an answer to this post but it's just so unimmaginably absurd that words don't do it justice.

There is nothing remarkable in being good a videogame. That's like, beyond basic. It's just common sense. It's stupidly obvious.

Games are FUN. Fun as in, I'd rather play games than do anything else. Spending a lot of time playing a game is an achievement now lol?


WR aren't worth shit. They are useless, like art.

And that's the beauty of it.

[Hagane]

If time was the only requirement for being good at something then everyone would be good at what they do.

[Kollision]

Spending a lot of time playing a game is an achievement now lol?

sadly LOTS of people think it is

[Hagane]

I blame RPGs.

[Kollision]

A while ago I set up a Raptor account as an alternative to keep track of my PS3/360 collections, and a few days ago the system "congratulated" me for a new achievement - something based on the amount of time I was finally able to put on Guwange.

Criteria aside, Raptor didn't track any of the activity from the time I spent with Mushi.

[pestro87]

Spending a lot of time playing a game is an achievement now lol?

I always attach a copy of my Xbox Live achievements to my CV.

[chum]

I've also seen people saying that having multiple Lunatic No-Bomb runs of some of the harder games in the series is "nothing special" and just requires a time investment - e.g. anyone could do them. This may be true, but it's still an accomplishment that requires a great deal of skill and time investment, and it's worth recognizing that. I think the good players are so used to being able to play at a high level that they don't recognize how remarkable that, in itself, is. Consequently they tend to undervalue their own accomplishments, and by extension, those of others. I can see some of this in myself, too. I'm very disappointed with Dragon Blaze runs that only make it to the 2-1 boss, but for most people, even making it that tiny bit into the loop would be remarkable.

There is nothing remarkable in being good a videogame. That's like, beyond basic. It's just common sense. It's stupidly obvious.

Games are FUN. Fun as in, I'd rather play games than do anything else. Spending a lot of time playing a game is an achievement now lol?

Now I'm confused... so you're saying an achievement isn't an achievement? I don't see what time ever had to do with it, if you have an achievement then you have an achievement, whether it's remarkable or not depends on who you ask. OK if you don't find WRs or WR holders remarkable, but that opinion isn't absolute truth.

This thread sucks.

[trap15]

Now I'm confused... so you're saying an achievement isn't an achievement? I don't see what time ever had to do with it, if you have an achievement then you have an achievement, whether it's remarkable or not depends on who you ask. OK if you don't find WRs or WR holders remarkable, but that opinion isn't absolute truth.

This thread sucks.

[endoKarb]

If time was the only requirement for being good at something then everyone would be good at what they do.

Yeah becuase so many people keep doing the same thing year after year without giving up.....

anyway, all i was saying is that expecting to be recognized for playing a game a lot and mastering it is pretty absurd.

Also, the actual top players I had the chance to meet (not just in shmup) just don't really care about recognition, cause they love what they do.

[chum]

Pretty sure many people do that and the majority of them get no records or anything of the sort to show for it. This genre of games is not just about fun, It's about working hard. At least to me and to many others. Reducing efforts into "time spent" or "time wasted" is the kind of toxic attitude that turns this forum into a gloomy, depressing place.

I don't completely agree with RNG, but you seemed to misunderstand him, because nowhere did I find the statement "People should expect others to recognize their achievements". He said that some accomplishments are worth recognizing. That's his opinion. I share it.

Also, whether people should or shouldn't expect recognition from doing something in a video game seems completely irrelevant to me, I don't understand why you'd get hung up on that either even though nobody brought it up. It's quite natural to expect someone to care if you set a world record, obviously, or even if you complete a lesser achievement and post about it somewhere, obviously someone out there is going to notice and It's hardly unlikely that someone will care.

[Jeneki]

Spending a lot of time playing a game is an achievement now lol?

I admit, I giggled a bit at the "Play for 96 hours" achievement in Raiden Fighters Aces.

[ArrogantBastard]

Nobody cares about the fact that I am the first Westerner to achieve a 2-ALL in Progear, or have broken the 200 million score mark.

Waste of time and a portion of my life, I say.

[RNGmaster]

Also, the actual top players I had the chance to meet (not just in shmup) just don't really care about recognition, cause they love what they do.

Recognition is nothing to do with it. It's do you, as a player, feel like the time you have spent playing these games has been worth it? Because if you've spent hundreds of hours of practice and sunk a significant chunk of your life into getting good, and you are always talking about how bad you are and how your accomplishments are nothing special, that tells me that playing these games will never bring you happiness. You are forever pursuing a goal of becoming better that you are doomed never to reach. If you get a WR, will you say "hell yes, this was amazing" or will you immediately dissect exactly what went wrong and what needs to be improved?

This is part of the nature of getting a WR in a competitive game. You have to be willing to criticize everything you do and be perpetually unsatified and incomplete. In my opinion, self-hate like this is a poor hobby. I respect people who are very, very good at these games, I just don't ever want to be one of them.

Nobody cares about the fact that I am the first Westerner to achieve a 2-ALL in Progear, or have broken the 200 million score mark.

Waste of time and a portion of my life, I say.

If you're being sarcastic, I don't mean to have implied that, and I'm sorry. But are you, personally, proud of your accomplishment? Do you think it was worth it?

[Bananamatic]

Nobody cares about the fact that I am the first Westerner to achieve a 2-ALL in Progear, or have broken the 200 million score mark.

Waste of time and a portion of my life, I say.

wait what
you 2-all'd Progear?
gaijin version or JP

[Hagane]

Yeah becuase so many people keep doing the same thing year after year without giving up.....

If you believe you can get to Clover-TAC levels of skill only by playing a lot you are deluding yourself.

As Ganelon said before, there's a lot of Street Fighter players who played the games for years and remain at low or mid levels of skill. Time is only a resource, competitive games demand more than just putting hours in them. Thinking, executing, etc., are things that won't improve just by mindlessly spending hours in front of a screen.

In any case, saying that being good at games has no "worth" is pretty silly. Pretty much nothing has an objective worth. To me getting good at games is worth it because I have fun doing that, and when I see someone do great at a game I like it has worth as far as I'm concerned.

[RNGmaster]

wait what
you 2-all'd Progear?
gaijin version or JP

He's made several posts about it in the thread already. Read, you silly!

[endoKarb]

Sorry if this thread turned out to be so negative. I've been gaming since I was 6 or 7, and it is by far my biggest passion. The whole point of the thread was to help you guys appreciate the incredible magnitude of the achievements of these Japanese superplayers.

To appreciate the depth of the passion and love for the game that some of these players show.

I just can't stand it when people start talking about achievements and accomplishments and recognition in regards to videogames. It should never be about that, playing videogames is no achievement at all.

To me it is all about finding the most beautiful play, and I was just completely blown away but the sheer amount of time was spent perfecting, for exemple, a relatively simple game like Mushihime-sama Original.

I am not here argue, or convince anyone, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I don't think I am more right than anyone, I am just sharing my personal view.

I do not look forward to becoming a world-record tier player if that's what it involves. I can't hate myself that much.

The top japanese players do criticize their play extremly harshly; But they judge their worth as a players based on how hard they try.

I hope you'll see what a difference this little detail makes. I wish more people in the west had this attitude.

[Seppo Hovi]

Hum. I think we are dealing with a major misunderstanding here.

Because if you've spent hundreds of hours of practice and sunk a significant chunk of your life into getting good, and you are always talking about how bad you are and how your accomplishments are nothing special, that tells me that playing these games will never bring you happiness.

Two different things, there. Most people might say their skill is lower than you think it is, due to different points of view. This, however, has nothing to do with happiness. I do enjoy playing, whether I make progress or not. The act of playing in itself brings the happiness, nevermind what the result was.

You are forever pursuing a goal of becoming better that you are doomed never to reach. If you get a WR, will you say "hell yes, this was amazing" or will you immediately dissect exactly what went wrong and what needs to be improved?

When I got my most recent IN Easy score, I blurted out "Fuck yes" in Finnish and spent a good while calming down. Once the emotions had settled, I watched the run, collecting mistakes and possible improvements. I think this would be a somewhat natural course of action. I'm new to the party, though, so I could be wrong.

Also, giving critique to your runs and hating both the run and yourself are a very different thing. You can be happy about your good runs even while focusing on future improvements. A good scorerun marks lots of love and compassion, a good scorerun marks a memory. Not of the run itself, but of playing the game you enjoy.

self-hate like this is a poor hobby. I respect people who are very, very good at these games, I just don't ever want to be one of them.

I'm afraid this will be a bit arrogant, but I'll say it anyway. So what? Let the other people live with whatever ideology they want to, nobody is forcing you into self-depreciation.

[RNGmaster]

I might be projecting my personal experience, then. Personally, after I got my UFO Lunatic 1cc I immediately started to devalue it and talk about how it was just an exercise in resource spam. I had spent one month practicing it hardcore, and as soon as I got the accomplishment I was looking for, I was disappointed with myself. I may have erred in thinking that the self-deprecation of the high-level players comes from the same source as my disappointment. I appreciate that you enjoy the games you play, Seppo, and I wish I could do the same. I don't know whether other players feel the same way you do, but I hope so. I just think that the attitude that WR play is all about is something that can easily turn into a vicious cycle. It must be hard to prevent the games from consuming your whole life.

My main complaint against people consistently devaluing their own accomplishments is universal, though, and it's something I see a lot.

[ArrogantBastard]

RNGmaster, what's there to be proud of? That I dedicated over 5 years of my time into a video game? I remember telling Plasmo once via PM that "it's just a video game." No, I'm not proud of it. It's not a recognizable achievement or something worth sharing with your real life friends.

I don't know why you nerds are keyboard warrior-ing it up about who's wrong or who's right about this topic, lol.

[O. Van Bruce]

RNGmaster, what's there to be proud of? That I dedicated over 5 years of my time into a video game? I remember telling Plasmo once via PM that "it's just a video game." No, I'm not proud of it. It's not a recognizable achievement or something worth sharing with your real life friends.

I don't know why you nerds are keyboard warrior-ing it up about who's wrong or who's right about this topic, lol.

Worst is that even if you have all the authority to question the meaning of this discussion it will continue on. I dunno why they keep arguing about something that has been proved nby this thread as subjective. Must be their ego

[RNGmaster]

RNGmaster, what's there to be proud of? That I dedicated over 5 years of my time into a video game? I remember telling Plasmo once via PM that "it's just a video game." No, I'm not proud of it. It's not a recognizable achievement or something worth sharing with your real life friends.

I don't know why you nerds are keyboard warrior-ing it up about who's wrong or who's right about this topic, lol.

Haha, no, I'm actually starting to feel the same way as you. I haven't touched a shmup since I tried EoSD no-bomb, got intensely frustrated, and asked myself - when I win, will I think 'Yeah, it was worth it?" And the answer was no. I has spent too much effort in the game, and I knew that the triumph couldn't be worth the hours of acting like a pathetic manchild and crying over a failure in a fucking video game.

I know you don't care for me, OVB, but I'm not arguing or trying to prove any viewpoint right. I see that, indeed, you can get a WR without the game devouring you, if you go into it with the right frame of mind. I'm just kind of wondering how WR players feel. Do they think that the hours they've put in have been "worth it"? Or are they the same as me, or ArrogantBastard? I have no fucking clue, but I want to know if it's possible to play these games well, and be satisfied, and stay mentally balanced. I know "is it worth it" is an awfully vague question but I think it's rarely asked, and worth asking.

[O. Van Bruce]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the huge difference bettwen "happy" and "sad" WR players is this: Arcades.

Playing shmups becomes a social experience and you can meet real people and real friends in one place that lets you develop your pasion. You don't even have to play the games on the arcade or even try to score on those games (you can actually be a Touhou player and still like to go the arcade.

In contrast being alone and isolated, only talking about the game in IRC's or forums it can beclme quiet sad.

From my experience I can only go full shmup when I'm competing against a friend. I've had so much fun when I was competing against Thanuris...

[iconoclast]

Games are for fun. If you're not having fun while playing, you're just wasting your time. People like TAC, Kamui, NAK, SWY, ISO, and many other high level players are having fun learning a game, formulating strategies, optimizing their routes, and competing to become #1. They may get frustrated or angry on occasion due to constantly screwing up or something, but I'm sure they're still having fun most of the time (this is the case for me, at least). If you hate the game and just playing it is making you miserable, you're missing the point whether you've become good or not.


Aside from that, achievements in competitive video games (STG, RTS, fighting, rhythm?) are no less valuable than achievements in any other [primarily mental] sport, like chess or poker.

[awo]

I enjoy improving my scores, just like I enjoy beating the computer at chess (which I play a lot as well). It's a simple pleasure, and a satisfying diversion. I've been playing a few credits of Muchi Muchi Pork most days over the past 3 months and I've gotten some records out of it on the xbox live rankings. It's not that hard, and it doesn't require playing the game for hours on end each day. You just have to focus on one game, take each credit seriously, make realistic goals, recognize your weaknesses, and try and improve on them in the next run (and then make new goals). I don't use save states or training modes, just full credits each time. I have more fun that way.

Another thing I'd add is you shouldn't focus on "western" records (as it's a meaningless term that celebrates mediocrity and gives delusional satisfaction and a false sense of superiority to underachievers). Always keep the world record in your thoughts and measure your score gains by it and it alone. Try and get as close to it as you can. It's just a game, after all, and until someone shows me a Japanese shmup gene, I'll continue on under the assumption that the Japanese have no genetic advantage. If you only keep the "western" record in your mind -- if that is your only goal -- you'll never realise your full potential.

[NTSC-J]

The whole point of the thread was to help you guys appreciate the incredible magnitude of the achievements of these Japanese superplayers. To appreciate the depth of the passion and love for the game that some of these players show.

I just can't stand it when people start talking about achievements and accomplishments and recognition in regards to videogames. It should never be about that, playing videogames is no achievement at all.

was to help you guys appreciate the incredible magnitude of the achievements of these Japanese superplayers

I just can't stand it when people start talking about achievements and accomplishments and recognition in regards to videogames

appreciate the incredible magnitude of the achievements

can't stand it when people start talking about achievements

playing videogames is no achievement at all

magnitude of the achievements

no achievement at all

[Plasmo]

If time was the only requirement for being good at something then everyone would be good at what they do.

I've heard this opinion a million times now. I can't really believe in natural talent (at least as a relevant factor), so that it comes down to the time spent on games. I can say about myself for example, that I'm horribly inconsistent and not really a good gamer, but I can make up for that at least a bit, because I can be persistent and keep playing a single game over a long time - That's where the scores are made. The real skill is to keep playing and that exactly is the primary skill you need for being good at something in general. But that's not an easy task! Not everyone will be able to spent lots of time on something.

Learning a language, doing sports, drawing or playing a videogame - More or less the same. You get better the more time you spent. Some are socially more accepted and recognized as a good thing or even art. Some are seen as waste of time. Basically I can enjoy all of them and that's why I try to be good at them. Sometimes for my own satisfaction and other times simply to show off. Right now I'm doing preperations for writing my Ph.D.-thesis and for me there is absolutely no difference or priority between this and shmups. Most of the people I know, value the former much higher than the latter. A closed mindset they have.

Spending lots of time at whatever and getting better at it, is a remarkable thing in general and thus, of course, an achievement. I love watching people being good at something and taking it to the extreme. It impresses and entertains me.


And @ArrogantBastard
I don't really get why you've kept playing Progear then. It's still an amazing achievement and I don't think it'll ever be beaten in the west. You're number 1 and that score is disgustingly impressive. There's no point in spending time on something you don't enjoy. But if you've enjoyed it, then you can be proud aswell. At least you've made $250 with it, right?

[Eaglet]

[

+1000

[Ko.oS]

i do not have fun when i'm playing the game... i am just working, working... it is the end of the game, when the scoreboard show's up, and i see a score like.. 1.920.470.000.. that is when i get my jollies

.
.
.
yea, that's a mesh up, bonus points if you recognize any of it - btw, word on the street is someone's working on translating a series of interviews with a bunch of arcadia record holders (from 200x), perhaps that will shed some light on the issue...?

_______________________________________
"the internet has given you a voice - say something intelligent"

[endoKarb]

various contradictions

Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes!

EDIT: A WR is objectively a huge achievement, but it's not anything deserving of praise or respect or recognition in my opinion. That's the point I was sort of trying to make in a very very rambling and confusing way.

And the reason I think so is becuase the only way to get to such an enormous goal there is by having lots and lots of fun and loving what you do.

It seems to me a lot of people play for recognition as opposed to playing for fun. It looks like a lot of people here, even some quite good players, don't actually enjoy playing that much.

I actually remeber Kamui saying something similar about top Japanese players, and about how she always prioritize fun over an high score in her runs. I love that!