FEZ is Boring, Buggy, Badly Designed Bullshit

[Ganelon]

system11 succinctly highlighted the main reasons some people feel so negatively about Fez, little of which have to do with the game itself. Just to reiterate:

1. The creator made a comment about JP games that definitely sent shots fired (many folks here independently say the same things though so this probably shouldn't be a big deal).
2. The game (at least on 360) has significant technical problems with the save bug and a surprisingly inconsistent frame rate for a game of its relative "simplicity."
3. The game is viewed by some major gaming media as a new paradigm of sidescrollers, both mechanically and artistically.

The last reason is probably the biggest. Many object when they feel praise given is undeserved, much as folks here rag on Sine Mora all the time for appealing in areas contrary to usual shooter standards. It's the same reason a lot of RPG fans hated Final Fantasy VII upon release because new fans were claiming it was some sort of revolution instead of yet another excellent Square RPG. It's the same reason Halo got so much backlash early on from the PC FPS community.

I think that Fez is an interesting diversion and that it clearly has its fans but I don't want collection/puzzle mechanics and 8-bit visuals to dominate the direction of future sidescrollers any more than I wanted combos/juggles to dominate fighting games and beat-em-ups. If Fez's creator stayed silent and if the game wasn't getting such high marks, then folks likely would care a lot less.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think you've forgotten the context of that. He was using one specific visitor (and, I should remind you, a guest to the West) as the placeholder for making blanket condemnation of Japanese games development. I don't think that shit is ever called for, especially if it makes you as big a hypocrite as Fishy boy who has had and probably never will have any place to call out people for badly designed and boring titles. (This article has an encouraging read on the motivation the comments may have provided - some reverse psychology I suppose - but the developer behind La Mulana certainly had nothing to apologize for, having integrated puzzles and platforming action perfectly long before Fish flopped onto the scene like a net of rotting dolphins. "The whole thing is unfortunate." As is Fish's apparent continued determination to be a blight on the gaming scene, rather than a constructive force - I know he has the smarts to be that; he just needs to suck it up and get over himself - more consistently.)

It's the same reason a lot of RPG fans hated Final Fantasy VII upon release because new fans were claiming it was some sort of revolution instead of yet another excellent Square RPG. It's the same reason Halo got so much backlash early on from the PC FPS community.

There's little similarity between an ancient turf battle between a couple narrow-minded Half-Life/Deus Ex/military FPS sim fans (who were wrong) versus the Halo revolution, and games which not only fail to push the state of the art forward (as Halo and Final Fantasy VII both clearly did, even if for "superficial" reasons), but fail to even be competent in core elements. I don't see much similarity between people voicing at least partially reasonable concerns about developments that set back parts of their genres, and entire communities shunning games - and developers - which pretend to shake up the status quo but end up setting back the state of gaming.

[Ganelon]

Ed: It seems I've indeed forgotten the context. OK, so the first reason is that the creator has poor social graces. Still, it's not a game-related reason. I think Koichi Sugiyama has an incredibly ignorant perspective on history but that won't stop me from giving him credit as a great game music composer.

As for my examples, I don't follow what you're trying to say other than that my comparisons apparently don't apply. In case my point wasn't clear, I was saying that media and new fans were responsible for raising games onto pedestals that didn't make much sense. I said nothing about the quality of any of the games, just that they weren't historically groundbreaking as many were claiming.

I think Fez appeals to folks who appreciate simple colorful visuals, find item collection fun, and enjoy solving puzzles while platforming. Judged in how well it meets those criteria, Fez would likely be considered a success. I don't see what Fez—the game itself—really does to set back or move forward gaming. I just don't want that style of play and art to become the standard for future sidescrollers. If there are critical weaknesses within the game itself to be aware of, then that's exactly what I think the Fez fans here would want to have explained more clearly.

[Friendly]

Yeah well, I think the game itself is shit (and that's judging it completely on its own merits, unrelated to its creator being a douche); it bored me to tears.
This sums it up pretty well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Ifue2xGFY

[Specineff]

Over 200,000 sales on XBLA alone. Far more than any Cave title ever sold. Maybe it's not niche enough for the hardcore...

You're right about the levels of entitlement and self-righteousness from the haters though. Funny that the people accusing Fish of it are actually a hundred times worse than him when it comes to small minded insular pettiness.

Final Fantasy 13 sold over one million in Japan, but that doesn't change the fact that the battle system is broken, the characters are annoying and the game is simply not fun, regardless of how advanced the tools and engine may be, or the vision the director had.

Batman Forever on the SNES and Genesis, Zelda II on the NES, Sonic 06 and countless others worthless crap games sold better than say, Gunstar Heroes or Vectorman, but they are still Kusoge any way you look at them. Also, none of those games crashed the system the way Fez/Feces does.

Fish can be a bestialist necrophiliac and cuss like a possessed drunk sailor if he wants as that shouldn't have any effect on the games he releases. Being a possessed jerk whose words reek of raped animal corpse to people when they bring up the issues the game has is without excuse.

Are you by any chance a member of the development or publishing team, Bcass?

[bcass]

Over 200,000 sales on XBLA alone. Far more than any Cave title ever sold. Maybe it's not niche enough for the hardcore...

Final Fantasy 13 sold over one million in Japan, but that doesn't change the fact that the battle system is broken

Yeah, I think the irony of that one was lost on you somewhat... Sales of 200,000 are fuck-all on a service where the best selling titles are in the millions.

Are you by any chance a member of the development or publishing team, Bcass?

Nope. No associations whatsoever. I'm a big fan of Fish now though. The guy's a genius games designer.

[Moniker]

(This article has an encouraging read on the motivation the comments may have provided - some reverse psychology I suppose - but the developer behind La Mulana certainly had nothing to apologize for, having integrated puzzles and platforming action perfectly long before Fish flopped onto the scene like a net of rotting dolphins. "The whole thing is unfortunate." As is Fish's apparent continued determination to be a blight on the gaming scene, rather than a constructive force - I know he has the smarts to be that; he just needs to suck it up and get over himself - more consistently.)

I don't see much similarity between people voicing at least partially reasonable concerns about developments that set back parts of their genres, and entire communities shunning games - and developers - which pretend to shake up the status quo but end up setting back the state of gaming.

I dunno. It seems to me that Fish & Fez are getting entirely too much credit and too much blame as regards impact on the industry. Fez is fairly popular, and Fish is sorta famously caustic, but I have trouble seeing how the future of Fez's genre will be all that impacted by its release (indie puzzle platformers have been, are, and will continue to be a dime a dozen), and there's no sign that his comments are going to make any Japanese devs, indie or otherwise, up and quit.

There are much bigger fish (hah) to fry when it comes to the gaming industry. Big western devs & publishers need to get their pricing, budget, and QA models under control; Nintendo and Japanese indies need to better embrace digital distro and multiplayer; and niche devs (looking at you, CAVE) need to realize that the landscape has changed if they want to survive.

[BrianC]

Batman Forever on the SNES and Genesis, Zelda II on the NES, Sonic 06 and countless others worthless crap games sold better than say, Gunstar Heroes or Vectorman, but they are still Kusoge any way you look at them.

I disagree with Zelda II being lumped in with Batman Forever and Sonic 06. It's nowhere near as poorly designed as those games and certainly not kusoge.

[Ed Oscuro]

Ed: It seems I've indeed forgotten the context. OK, so the first reason is that the creator has poor social graces. Still, it's not a game-related reason.

Of course it's a game-related reason, because it's poisoning the atmosphere in which games are created.

To see some people who are trying to do things right, see this.

I for one feel entirely justified in not sending any money to Fish until he figures out a way to actually help the situation with games, rather than throw bombs which just serve to drive the various gaming communities apart.

It seems to me that Fish & Fez are getting entirely too much credit and too much blame as regards impact on the industry.

"With great hype comes great chups" - UNCA BEN

[Moniker]

Batman Forever on the SNES and Genesis, Zelda II on the NES, Sonic 06 and countless others worthless crap games sold better than say, Gunstar Heroes or Vectorman, but they are still Kusoge any way you look at them.

I disagree with Zelda II being lumped in with Batman Forever and Sonic 06. It's nowhere near as poorly designed as those games and certainly not kusoge.

Zelda II rulz. lrn2ply lolzomg backslash backslash

[Specineff]

Very well. Zelda II is not Kusoge, but it's a low point in the series, and not as broken as Fez(es)

[BrianC]

I'm disappointed in Fez because it has nothing to do with Morocco Mole or candy dispensers.

[Moniker]

Very well. Zelda II is not Kusoge, but it's a low point in the series, and not as broken as Fez(es)

Black sheep, maybe. Not the low point. That distinction belongs to Phantom Hourglass (if we're disregarding the CD-i games... we probably should). It's a great platformer RPG; it's just hard as a frozen nutsack until you know what you're doing, which makes people think it sucks.

After all this claptrap and carrying on, I may have to get Fez just to see what we're up against. The 8-bit Threat. The Enemy, Father of Lies. Winter is coming, and the Final Battle is upon us. Where's Nixon when we really need him??

[Blackbird]

I think you guys are hating.

I'm making an assumption that, because we are all here in a shmups forum, we like fast-paced, challenging gameplay with tight controls. This game is obviously not designed to appeal to our demographic. The relaxed tone, uncomplicated controls, and low difficulty level make it clear that this game is intended for a casual audience. The game is designed to be more of an immersive exploration game than a test of skill. In musical terms, it's slow jazz, and it sounds like a lot of you wanted it to be power metal instead.

Many people are grumbling about indie pretentiousness, but there are a lot of good things about the game. I think the visual presentation is very nice. The homage to Cave Story is pretty obvious, but the colors are vibrant and the graphics very crisp. Some of the settings are quite iconic, and it is nice that the camera pans around so that you can examine the setting from a 3D perspective. I enjoy the soundtrack; it doesn't just ape retro games, but instead pleasantly reminds me of chilled-out electronic artists like Tycho, Board of Canada or Telefon Tel Aviv.

Not buying the game because you think Fish is a douchebag is a pretty valid reason, though, he does come off like a prick.

[Skykid]

Jeebus shmuppers, what's wrong with you. I haven't played Fez, not really in a hurry to either, but it hasn't done anything to offend me.

A game is a game, good, bad, whatever. There's no requirement to stick to specific guidelines, it can take whatever shape it chooses. If it finds favour with a particular audience, it's no different from Street Fighter or shmups - someone's enjoying it.

I remember when the indie knife brigade turned out for Journey in exactly the same fashion, and I couldn't see a great deal wrong with it. But short, bit overpriced, but worth a playthrough, definitely. I'm assuming Fez falls into a similar category.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'd been staying quiet on this issue because, to a certain degree, I do agree that you should be able to say and buy or sell what you want in relative peace, at least when it comes to games. Something a guy said a few years ago might not be to his credit, but its relevance should fade...ah, but here we are again, and how little has changed to make this heal over.

But oh man, what a compelling assortment of tangents and tantrums we have here. "Don't vote with your wallet," buying games to prove a point (I'm sure we'll all learn a lesson, but Fish won't ), and the always-lolgasmic "it never offended me personally." Sweep all that stuff off to the side, please. I play HOGs for dog's sake, so I'm not going to tell anybody they're terrible for buying this or that. I will say that it's not magic what kinds of games we get based on what attention we pay to them. I'd be quite happy if Fish just receded into obscurity until he learns how to fix what appear to be quite basic bugs in his game, and I certainly agree that whoever thought he needed to be appointed Chief Philosopher and Ambassador of Gaming Culture needs to think again. However, insofar as he's not made any kind of consistent effort to offer whatever constructive criticism he has in a constructive manner, Fish as Philosopher and Ambassador (i.e., commonplace blogger) is definitely overhyped.

It's hard not to suspect that the guy who got a seat on a highly visible panel on the supposed strength of an unreleased game might have something of an interest (even if it's unconscious) in throwing bombs, which needs to be tamped down. This isn't focusing on Fish the person; it's focusing on Fish the cultural phenomenon. And yes, it's not entirely his fault. It's easy to see where he comes off saying the thing is "regrettable" and just making his apologies in private, but I'm sure there's issues and celebrities who have made similar gaffes and who wouldn't garner your sympathy for this kind of reaction. It's just the world we live in; you've got to earn your place as a voice, and it can certainly be resented from others (but hey, Rush Limbaugh is still around, so what do I know?) I'm sure he's a swell guy with swell ideas, and parts of the accounts give us reason to believe this. Eliminated from gaming? No, but I think a boycott is entirely appropriate. Hell, a boycott is entirely appropriate just for the nonexistent product improvement track record alone. Other people are working harder for your money.

Games don't exist outside of their environment. It amuses me to no end that so many think the discussion is another attempt by the Gaming Elite trying to tell everybody else what to play or think...again, I play HOGs and am not going to bag on anybody for what they play. It's the message that's being sent that worries me. Fish is not the devil, but he just ought to think before he tries to change the world (also fix his games). Quite hilarious that people here are feeling personally stung by criticisms of some (not all) of the feeble defenses of bad behavior being given here, without a second thought to the feeling that Fish's comments often provokes.

If there is going to be some healing process, it looks like somebody other than Fish is going to be behind it, at least the way things stand now.

[Ed Oscuro]

Alternatively, I could just say that people are seeing a storyline that isn't there.

Or I could just point out that these "live and let live" defenses sure weren't on display in the "game genres" thread for the most part.

[Formless God]

I highly doubt anybody would play games if you stripped them into hitboxes

This has nothing to do with atmosphere. Interface design, color scheme and visibility are some of the things that affect playability, so they are all part of (or at least equally important as) the mechanics. All of the on-screen elements have their colors and contrasts carefully picked so that they can be distinguished against each other and against the background; if you suddenly strip them away the player won't know what the hell is going on.

People I play games in front of don't give a damn about atmosphere or immersion. They always urge me to skip every cutscenes that pop up. A sophisticated design beats a pretty picture/scene any day when it comes to entertainment value. I'm a fucking artist and I know this.

[Friendly]

I remember when the indie knife brigade turned out for Journey in exactly the same fashion, and I couldn't see a great deal wrong with it. But short, bit overpriced, but worth a playthrough, definitely. I'm assuming Fez falls into a similar category.

Huh? What knife brigade? Most people liked Journey very much. It didn't cause any shitstorms, was actually a well-crafted and rather unique game with great visual style. The desert you traverse in Journey is purpousely empty and barren-- because it is a desert. The emptiness of Fez on the other hand is a design flaw, as is its total lack of challenge. Fez tried to be retro and completely missed the point, because retro does not equal 0 challenge.

[bcass]

Quite hilarious that people here are feeling personally stung by criticisms of some (not all) of the feeble defenses of bad behavior being given here, without a second thought to the feeling that Fish's comments often provokes.

Stung? Truly massive lols. Nobody who didn't take Fish's comments personally is feeling stung. Those of us who are mature enough not to get upset by one guys opinions are having a laugh at you lot who take Fish's comments so personally. It's that simple. It doesn't take paragraphs of explanation, it takes one sentence.

If there is going to be some healing process, it looks like somebody other than Fish is going to be behind it, at least the way things stand now.

Oh my LOL. You need to go out for walk or something and get some perspective. You're taking this shit way too seriously. Get over yourself and move on. There are far bigger fish to fry in this world.

[bcass]

I remember when the indie knife brigade turned out for Journey in exactly the same fashion, and I couldn't see a great deal wrong with it. But short, bit overpriced, but worth a playthrough, definitely. I'm assuming Fez falls into a similar category.

Huh? What knife brigade? Most people liked Journey very much. It didn't cause any shitstorms, was actually a well-crafted and rather unique game with great visual style. The desert you traverse in Journey is purpousely empty and barren-- because it is a desert. The emptiness of Fez on the other hand is a design flaw, as is its total lack of challenge. Fez tried to be retro and completely missed the point, because retro does not equal 0 challenge.

Like the rest of your posts in this thread, total ignorant nonsense. Laughable nonsense actually. These comments could only be made by someone who hasn't played the game much because much of the scenery in Fez actually has purpose and is anything but a design flaw. Also, why would a total lack of challenge in Journey be fine but a lack of challenge in Fez be a flaw? The answer is that you're getting desperate and are now clutching at straws. Having completed both games, I can say with a high degree of confidence that Fez is an infinitely more challenging game than Journey.

I remember when the indie knife brigade turned out for Journey in exactly the same fashion, and I couldn't see a great deal wrong with it. But short, bit overpriced, but worth a playthrough, definitely. I'm assuming Fez falls into a similar category.

I spent somewhere in the region of 30 hours completing the game and it cost approx £6, so I don't think those comparisons are valid really.

[Marc]

I remember when the indie knife brigade turned out for Journey in exactly the same fashion, and I couldn't see a great deal wrong with it. But short, bit overpriced, but worth a playthrough, definitely. I'm assuming Fez falls into a similar category.

Huh? What knife brigade? Most people liked Journey very much. It didn't cause any shitstorms, was actually a well-crafted and rather unique game with great visual style. The desert you traverse in Journey is purpousely empty and barren-- because it is a desert. The emptiness of Fez on the other hand is a design flaw, as is its total lack of challenge. Fez tried to be retro and completely missed the point, because retro does not equal 0 challenge.

Oh dear. You haven't played Fez have you, you've watched a video on YouTube right? Fez is anything but empty, and the lack of 'challenge' would be more important if it was trying to be a retro platformer, which it isn't. I actually don't care whether other people liked the game or not, but there's some quite sweeping assumptions in this thread from people that have barely, or never, played it.

[Casey120]

This Fish guy has really upset the weabo World with his Japan comment,
maybe he should release his game on the PS3 as a peace offer .

[O. Van Bruce]

So much voices in the air are making your hated/loved game be bought more than what it should. I just read part of this thread, went to google and wrote: "Fez game video"...

What were the chances I would be interested in some pixelated platformer made by a western indie developer? 0%

What are the chances that I would even BUY it after reading all the hate and love this thread has distilled? more than 80%

Think about the real reason this discussion is happening on the internet, Fez haters. This is just viral marketing

[bcass]

This Fish guy has really upset the weabo World with his Japan comment,
maybe he should release his game on the PS3 as a peace offer .

Hahaha. I think there's talk of a Vita port actually.

It's typical of the spectacular levels of ignorance on display in this thread that people sling the mud at him personally for the bugs, as he didn't actually code the game, he's just the designer and graphics artist. The coder is Renaud Bédard. Voxels are computationally expensive so it wouldn't surprise me if Fez was pushing the limits of the XNA framework, especially running on a managed environment on the 360.

[bcass]

So much voices in the air is making your hated/loved game be bought more than what it should. I just read part of this thread, went to google and wrote: "Fez game video"...

What were the chances I would be interested in some pixelated platformer made by a western indie developer? 0%

What are the chances that I would even BUY it after reading all the hate and love this thread has distilled? more than 80%

Think about the real reason this discussion is happening on the internet, Fez haters. This is just viral marketing

Totally. The more these people keep up the silly tirade the more money Fish makes. I remember the first few months when the game came out, and sales were around the 40k mark, but unlike most XBLA games it's had a real long tail sales wise, with current sales at 200k+.

[Ganelon]

I highly doubt anybody would play games if you stripped them into hitboxes

This has nothing to do with atmosphere. Interface design, color scheme and visibility are some of the things that affect playability, so they are all part of (or at least equally important as) the mechanics. All of the on-screen elements have their colors and contrasts carefully picked so that they can be distinguished against each other and against the background; if you suddenly strip them away the player won't know what the hell is going on.

People I play games in front of don't give a damn about atmosphere or immersion. They always urge me to skip every cutscenes that pop up. A sophisticated design beats a pretty picture/scene any day when it comes to entertainment value. I'm a fucking artist and I know this.

Color scheme affects atmosphere. People aren't going to play a fighting game with hitbox visuals combined with excellent interface design and visibility. Just because elements like color scheme affect mechanics doesn't mean they have nothing to do with atmosphere. Especially in my example, most fighting games don't need atmospheric elements such as backgrounds or a wide range of colors to function exactly the same. These games would function almost identically with stick figures but I have trouble believing people would enjoy them as much were that the case.

As for your anecdote, atmosphere exists without story. I believe you misinterpreted my post. I'm saying that some amount and type of atmosphere matters—enough that shaded vector polygons won't cut it in today's market—not that atmosphere is a major priority for everyone (which it certainly isn't). There are also different types of atmosphere. Or if you're defining "atmosphere" differently, then you should be aware of that. If you want to know how I define atmosphere, you can search for my past posts; I've discussed this subject at length in the past.

[Skykid]

I remember when the indie knife brigade turned out for Journey in exactly the same fashion, and I couldn't see a great deal wrong with it. But short, bit overpriced, but worth a playthrough, definitely. I'm assuming Fez falls into a similar category.

Huh? What knife brigade? Most people liked Journey very much.

The shmups.org indie knife brigade. You weren't around then, just search the thread for ridiculous fireworks and argument about what games are allowed to be.

Honestly, at that point Journey was the most enjoyment I'd squeezed out of my PS3 in about three years. I appreciated it resurrecting my relationship with the console in such interesting fashion.

[louisg]

There's nothing wrong with a game going in a different direction, but there's everything wrong with a game which derives so much from current-generation Japanese games and then has an author who dumps on them, behaving in such a rude way to a poor guy who saved up to travel to GDC. I think there's a certain amount of hypocrisy there and that's probably what drives people nutty. It'd be like if the Outtrigger producer told a guest who traveled to Japan for a game conference that American games all suck, even though the game took so much from Quake 3. The sheer arrogance and ignorance of it all is staggering, and doesn't seem so unusual in that scene. I'd love for that to change because I see a TON of potential from the indie game scene.

People should realize that classic game authors, whose games are still played 20 or more years later, were not running around considering themselves "visionaries" and patting each other on the back. Yet, combined, they made a huge number of non-gimmicky, infinitely replayable, and timeless classics that hold up decades later. If indie games want to be remembered as more than a fad they've gotta get the ego out of the design.

I'd like more people thinking about game mechanics and what a huge difference small tweaks make to the playability of games. The Big Idea is a great thing, but it has to be backed up by solid, competently tuned gameplay.

I don't know how much that applies to Fez specifically because I haven't played a *lot* of it. I did get to try a prerelease version, and I did watch people play through it at a gathering. Maybe I should get it now that it's out for PCs and see what I think.

Re: voxels: I don't see why those aren't extremely optimizable. Off the top of my head, I guess I'd suggest making the core of each 3d tile a solid cube-like shape, and reducing 3d tiles in the distance to 2d textures.

[bcass]

There's nothing wrong with a game going in a different direction, but there's everything wrong with a game which derives so much from current-generation Japanese games and then has an author who dumps on them

How do you know it derives so much from Japanese games when you've hardly played it? It's this kind of 2nd hand opinion drivel that makes the haters look like idiots. And for everyone's information, the Japanese weren't responsible for the first rotating tower platform game (the core mechanic in Fez).