Advice on making a casual shmup that doesn't suck

[helpleo]

Hello guys, I’m a game design student that has been stalking invisibly on the forums for a while, in order to make some research for my college conclusion project, which is, well, a game. My research (and a bit of personal bias) indicate that the shmup is the best genre, but, since my game is probably going to be experimental and arty and all that jazz, it means that will target a huge variety of players.

Because my time is short (game must in a playable state at least by the end of the august), and my development team consists basically of me, I'm reducing the works of such aspects of it; my initial plan is, during this initial development, make the skeleton of the game (the basic mechanics and flow of the stages) and the “normal” mode; further ahead, shape up a "challenging" mode (for players who dabble on shoot’em ups sometimes, and prefer more complex challenges) and perhaps an "awakened" mode (for true shmup players). This would also make changes on the overall flow of the game (lives, continues, enemy patterns), how the rank would behave (it will have some sort of modular, adaptative difficulty, to ease in casual players) and some other details.

Because of this, i've spent the last months submersed in shmups, playing pretty much everything I could get my hands on; my previous interests in shmups were mostly doujin/indie stuff (blue wish, cho ren sha, genetos, hydorah, and some more weirder, non-traditonal stuff – like cactus games), and ikaruga, that I play every now and then since 2008 (and probably has sharpest game design of any game I played, ever); but i expanded my view i bit, playing a little bit of everything by cave (espgaluda and progear are favorites, though yeah, dodonpachi is really good), raizing, psykio and such. so i'm not technically a neophyte, even though I still can't 1cc anything.

Point is, i'm still figuring out the initial concept of my game, I would like some ideas in order to evict the failings of most shooters that try to appease to the non-shmup-playing populace; also, if you could share some insight on which elements would be present in a simpler, easier shmup, but that would be interesting enough for you guys to play (be it in level design, mechanics, score system or overall aesthetics). A good/bad example of that would be a student game called Solace (http://solacegame.com/), which it is an interesting experiment in a ethereal, narrative area, but is shallow as hell (it doesn't even have a score system, for starters, and you can only fail by trying really, really hard). Though, really, I want to bring the best of both worlds; a game that is both challenging and deep, and though-provoking with lots of experimental craziness.

So any friendly advice, or perhaps sharp words of disapproval?

[n0rtygames]

Regarding difficulty, I advise that you start designing your game at the hardest difficulty. One that you can manage if you focus. A difficulty that requires you to keep alert and play it to your best.

Once you have your hardest difficulty - getting a few friends to test it and see how they fare will not only give you some sort of twisted sadistic pleasure, but it'll start to show you bad choke points and so on. Don't show ALL your friends though, because you'll want to keep some folk in reserve to give you as constant testing as possible.

Then, you can start removing things based on easier difficulties. A similar principal to creating a 'deny all' firewall in a way. First, you make it impregnable, then you start adding holes and routes through your game - becoming increasingly easier to spot and traverse the lower the difficulty.

Also, game flow first - make sure you can run through all the levels in your game. They don't have to have anything more than one enemy in each one -- just make sure that you have a flow in place that you can build on. Avoid the trap of creating one stage to perfection and then trying to force yourself through the rest. This can lead to bad things happening.

[Cagar]

I would share a crazy very rank-based scoring/game-system-idea-thing that I have in mind.
But I want to make it myself one day.
So this post is worthless and doesn't make sense.


This picture isn't related either, it's just some kind of concept art of another shmup (PvP) I'm going to make one day (too). Of course the screen is flipped for both players so that the player is always at bottom.



I might post a screenshot explaining the other cool idea, but tomorrow. It's extreme.

[Rozyrg]

Definitely agree with Norty on difficulty. Make it tough, don't be afraid of getting too good at your own game and just scale it back later if necessary. That way, you can get the nasty 'is it even possible?' hurdle out of the way first.

In general, I wouldn't worry about getting it 'right'/ 'wrong' or trying to please everyone (you simply won't.) There's no established, unchangeable dogma or anything, just some time-tested examples of what works. Use what works; but use what you personally enjoy.

It's all about nuance, too... a million little unseen things working together to better the experience better as a whole. Basically, when you go back and play your favorite shmups again, keep your eyes and ears wide open.

[Cagar]

Do not follow your own feelings too much while designing hard difficulty, or your hard difficulty might become mushihimesama futari ultra-ugly, where you just cannot survive if you don't have a route for all stages. Don't cross the line where you can't survive if you don't know what's coming; that's the line of the game is becoming stupid-hard.

After playing giest's trigonometry wars 3 redux, and later doing cagar label of it (read more here) I learned lots and lots and LOTS of things about stage & enemy pattern design, about what I think that makes shmup good (also known as CAVE-like).
One, and I think the important rule regarding stages and enemy patterns that I learned was:
Never make a situation where the player is not aimed by something. (More than 1 or 2 seconds)

BTW, put me on your "testers" list and PM me later, I have confidence to say that I can help to make your game better.

[railslave]

Advice on making a casual shmup that doesn't suck


Not the authority on this, but id say ....forget about Cave ...(for a long while), make space invaders then galaxian , xervious..
Its also very "good practice" and its definatley the right time to re-invent the wheel..
In the evolution of the shmup Cave is but a beautiful giraffe, but you CAN go other ways!! . Dare to be different and suffer for your art .

it can be easy to fall at the first hurdle, spending YEARS developing bullet patterns, that some one can always do better.


Want to make a rpg/shmup? just cause it never quite worked in the past , doesnt mean you cant do it ...
im guessing the whole Cave thing was a HUGE gamble at the time, and no doubt influenced by its arcade neighbors in the beat em up games, and their ever evolving combos/parry systems ect..
"Bend" all the rules..
Theres no dogma.


in style

[Cagar]

Space invaders and galaxian have very boring and old/dead concept. They're not fun to play, I've never heard anyone actually having fun while playing those - except fathers and other old farts who only like it for nostalgic-reasons.
The concept sucks in the year 2013.

Cave is the beautiful giraffe for a reason; they're the ones who took a step forward and started making games based on skill & scoring, and having the enjoyment of the game come from being good at it, not from cool mechanics, effects, graphics, music etc. other shit.
TL:DR; They concentrate on gameplay.

If you want to make it casual, I suggest RPG-elements, but it might be a huge challenge to keep it balanced.

[railslave]

Space invaders and galaxian have very boring and old/dead concept. They're not fun to play, I've never heard anyone actually having fun while playing those - except fathers and other old farts who only like it for nostalgic-reasons.
The concept sucks in the year 2013.

Cave is the beautiful giraffe for a reason; they're the ones who took a step forward and started making games based on skill & scoring, and having the enjoyment of the game come from being good at it, not from cool mechanics, effects, graphics, music etc. other shit.
TL:DR; They concentrate on gameplay.

If you want to make it casual, I suggest RPG-elements, but it might be a huge challenge to keep it balanced.

i recently discovered "sniping" on our remake of that game

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... ZhZGVycyJd

(sorry for the plug)

, changed everything..
i cant realy stand space invaders (USUALY), but im just saying they all started there, go back and go another route..
Its so not dead. I say "BRING BACK SHEILDS!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFZ9E4sDLJw

Very exciting times for the games that went the other way.



Theres just alot of pressure to be in a certain mold..... which sets the bar impossibly high for beginner programmers.
These games are as much as a shmup as everything else.
Personaly, i love the Cave thing, since i was introduced to it .. but it can be a bit of a cult lol.

Ive got to say that radiant is the most fun ive had in years

and desperately pretty

[Ebbo]

Space invaders and galaxian have very boring and old/dead concept.

This seems needlessly broad statement. Games in vein of SI may seem boring or outdated by today's standards but I think it has more to do with the execution rather than them being "dead concepts". For example Space Invaders Extreme series fleshed out SI gameplay with more complicated scoring and weapon system while still keeping the basic concept intact. Just to put things in perspective: many people outside of this forum probably think the same way about Cave's games as you do about Space Invaders.

My only piece of advice would probably be just that: try to keep your eyes open. Study all kinds of shooters, not just those labeled as modern or good ones. Never stop learning and who knows, maybe you'll find a way to implement things differently or use some of the old concepts in a brand new way.

Honestly I don't see much of correlation between shmups' mainstream appeal and how casual friendly they might be. In case of Ikaruga or Sine Mora (both popular among mainstream critics and fans alike, yet they've a vast difference in quality in terms of design) it really comes down to being at the right place at the right moment... As banal this might sound: Just don't think about it too hard and try to make a good game. Most people like good games

[Rozyrg]

make space invaders then galaxian , xevious..

Agree with this 100% in introducing vital elements. Your first proto-shmup should have a similar evolutionary path to some of the genre's establishing games. For example:

• Space Invaders: simple moving,shooting mechanics and wave/level advancement. Very easily understood scoring rules,win/loss conditions etc. Fun and challenging risk vs. reward elements.
  
  Galaga/Galaxian: More interesting, aggressive enemy movement and behavior, more varied enemy formations to fight, more freedom of movement for the player, bonus rounds and further scoring complexities to reward skilled players.
  
  Xevious: A scrolling playfield that lets the player feel they're going somewhere, ground-based enemies and giant boss enemies to fight.

There's plenty of other important and more nuanced elements to take from the classics, of course. Just pay attention.

As for the question of what will give you the broadest appeal, I'd just keep things simple. The simplicity is a big part of what keeps drawing people back to these games decades after their time. I love the flash and bombastic style of 'modern' shmups; but they lose me when they overcomplicate things and assume a level of concentration I probably haven't ever had.

Still, even if you want all the fancy bells and whistles in there, you should work your way up to it. Starting from a solid foundation based on the most basic, fun elements that these games have to offer universally should come first.

[BPzeBanshee]

Yeah, seconding what Rozyrg said, and also would like to place more emphasis on Cave *not* being the only way to go. In fact I'm getting a little sick of the Cave clones popping up lately to be honest.

A bit of creative freedom, or alternative company inspiration such as the likes of Seibu Kaihatsu will do wonders.

[helpleo]

Okay, first of all, thank you guys so much for all this positive feedback and helpful advice; this is already an excellent starting point for me. Don't mind the weirdness since what i'm doing a pretentious artgame shmup stravaganza for regular people who are into weird stuff, but not so much into hard games. So this is pretty much a work in going back to basics, since my focus is on the overall experience than the bullet patterns or scoring techniques (but mind you, I still want cool bullet patterns and clever scoring techniques).

On referentials, since this is also a academic work, part of my theorical development involves research of similars, and i'm ding this massive matrix of comparison, that includes probably every single relevant shmup launched in the last fifteen years, plus a couple of borderliners thrown in for good measure; so then I can cross-reference what mechanics and systems works or can be remodelled, and also forces me to play a wide variety of games and observe the subtle differences among them.

I'm also doing some field research with a slice of my target audience in order figure out the individual elements of shmups that they like (for instance, enemy destroying smart bombs vs. bullet cancelling ones, multiple weapons vs. multiple ships, collectable power-ups vs. evolutive power-ups, etcetera et al). With that informational, I can develop a series of basic mechanics, and then focus on stage rhythm and flow.

In my initial planning, Well, my game would be a mix between old and new sensibilities (both bullet hell-like dodging skills and spac einvaders timing startegy and planning could go in), with plenty of weapon combinations and a strong sense of identity, as well as a central theme and gameplay rule, for each individual stage (though this can border on making the game gimmicky, so I should stay alert).

RPG elements are something i was flirting with, but now i'm more partial to creating lots of different types of weapons, even ones that are unpractical to score-based plays, but are just fun to use. Also, my initial audience tests show that they prefer game with less technical information (AKA numbers) which sucks because I want at least a visible score a changing multipliers, while they prefer something with masked information, akin to Journey or Braid (or even the aforementioned Solace).

There are lots of avenues that I could take right now, so thanks again for the guidance and attention; and i'll keep you guys updated as this develops.