Dungeon crawl

[MX7]

So what does everyone think about the news for Etrian Odyssey: Millennium Maiden? Call me a heretic, but I think the series would really benefit from more characterisation, especially as a side story.

http://tmblr.co/ZbdYayh_jb0q

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Desperately trying to get my girlfriend back in to coding so we can make our own 1st person dungeon crawler. Something about a post apocalyptic London. Lots of tunnels and warehouses and skyscrapers. She wants it to be set in a post apocalytic Norwich but that sounds more Alan Partridge than Megaten to me. Obviously it doesn't need to be very graphics intensive at all. Any suggestions on how to get started?

[Nana]

It doesn't look too good to me. I don't like the idea of preset classes, voice acting, or having a main character, and a story about a girl with amnesia doesn't help too much either. It's justified in at least that it's a spin-off or a "remake" of the first game. I want to know if the dungeon layouts are the same or not so I can just pass it and not feel bad about it.


And yes, go make your own dungeon crawler! And keep us updated! I'm working on a bit of one for the dreamcast myself.

[CoolgyFurlough]

And yes, go make your own dungeon crawler! And keep us updated! I'm working on a bit of one for the dreamcast myself.

I would die for a good console-based dungeon crawler right now. And the fact that it will be on a Dreamcast makes it all the better!

Also

Desperately trying to get my girlfriend back in to coding so we can make our own 1st person dungeon crawler. Something about a post apocalyptic London.

That could be quite interesting! It's definitely something that falls outside of the usual dungeon tropes. (not that I hate the tropes, it's just nice to see something new )

[MX7]

I want to know if the dungeon layouts are the same or not so I can just pass it and not feel bad about it.

I didn't even think about that. Hopefully it'll mix the layouts up at the very least.

I know nothing of coding, all I can program is music. Just an absolute pipe dream at the moment. Still I suppose everyone has to start somewhere. How far are you through your project? What kind of theme is it? Sounds intriguing

It's definitely something that falls outside of the usual dungeon tropes.

Have you played any Shin Megami Tensei games? The first one on the Super Famicom is set in modern day Tokyo, the second and third in post apocalyptic versions of modern Tokyo. Dungeons are set in shopping malls, sewers, churches, hospitals etc... All stupidly deep, rock hard and with amazing soundtracks. I and II have very good fan translations, so no excuse in not giving them a go!

[CoolgyFurlough]

It's definitely something that falls outside of the usual dungeon tropes.

Have you played any Shin Megami Tensei games?

I've played Persona 3 and a bit of 2, but other than that, I haven't really. I find that the gameplay in those games is "meh," but the stories are obviously great. If somebody convinces me, I might try one of them, but my main JRPG at the moment is still EOIII.

[MX7]

It's definitely something that falls outside of the usual dungeon tropes.

Have you played any Shin Megami Tensei games?

I've played Persona 3 and a bit of 2, but other than that, I haven't really. I find that the gameplay in those games is "meh," but the stories are obviously great. If somebody convinces me, I might try one of them, but my main JRPG at the moment is still EOIII.

The main SMT series is nothing like Persona really. Perhaps you might like SMT: Strange Journey. It's on DS, it uses the Etrian Odyssey engine, and it's quite excellent.

[Nana]

I'll say that the Persona games aren't actually a part of the SMT series -- the title was actually just tagged on to sell more copies in America

Persona 3 simply has fucking horrendous gameplay -- Tartarus is one of the most banal dungeons I've ever played through. 300 floors and not a single special event or trap. Now, the mainline SMT games are actual dungeon crawlers, several of which being actual first-person grid-based dungeon crawlers like we were talking about here. For games with an overworld and exploration, Nocturne is AMAZING, and fixes every problem I had with Persona 3. Extremely difficult, extremely stylish, complex and unique dungeons throughout, and a wonderful melancholic story that does a good job of making you feel isolated. For the first-person games, I'd recommend either Strange Journey or the upcoming Soul Hackers over the PSP port of Persona 1, but Nocturne is my favorite of them all so far.

As for my game, I don't have as much of it as I'd like finished yet -- it's easier to get something working on the computer than the dreamcast for sure . But I've got a very basic prototype with moving around (Ideally I would like very basic wireframe/3D graphics (with the option of textures), but right now I'm just doing it in the style of Cosmic Soldier: Psychic War so I can actually get things done with it), an inventory system, and that's about it. I have an idea of what I want each floor to be like, but only 4 of them completely mapped out as of yet. As for the theme, ever play Yume Nikki? I really love the surreal dream-like atmosphere that game has, and ideally it will feel a little like that, with a bit of oppressive "horror" overtones, and gun/cyborg fetishism. I don't want to go into too much detail in the event that this project is more than I can handle and it ends up getting scrapped, but I hope that gets some sort of the idea across. The only thing I'm not really sure what to do with is the story.

[MX7]

So you're making a cyberpunk crawler influenced by Cosmic Soldier: Psychic War, Yume Nikki and Shinya Tsukamoto? You're pretty much describing my perfect game here Do keep us updated on any progress!

[CMoon]

I've played Persona 3 and a bit of 2, but other than that, I haven't really. I find that the gameplay in those games is "meh," but the stories are obviously great. If somebody convinces me, I might try one of them, but my main JRPG at the moment is still EOIII.

The main SMT series is nothing like Persona really. Perhaps you might like SMT: Strange Journey. It's on DS, it uses the Etrian Odyssey engine, and it's quite excellent.

Yes! If you like EO3 (great game!), give Strange Journey a chance. Honestly I think gameplay and atmosphere wise Nocturne is a much better game than Strange Journey and would be my first pick, but damn, SJ is also a great game.

It's also a good time to pick up a 3DS because Atlus is currently giving the dungeon crawler genre a lot of love with EO4, Soul Hackers and later this year, SMT 4.

[Squire Grooktook]

I tried the first two SMT games, and felt like they didn't really stand the test of time compared to stuff like Nocturne or Strange Journey. Am I wrong in this assumption and should I give them a second chance?

[Obiwanshinobi]

I played Digital Devil Saga before Nocturne and I have no regrets. Neat thing is, DDS is split into two volumes. The first one should give one a better idea of Atlus dungeon crawling than Persona 3 possibly could.
Nocturne still is a modern game, only superficially akin to, say, Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land (that one tries too hard to be old if you ask me). Is the latter really how Japanese like their 3D FPP engines? Cripes, even Thief/System Shock 2 engine would did a better job.

[BryanM]

So what does everyone think about the news for Etrian Odyssey: Millennium Maiden?

If it still has skill trees, it can be a ton, a ton of fun.

The only red flag is... why a remake? I hope to god that's some error in translation.

Any suggestions on how to get started?

If you're not building assets you're not building your game. Like

<-------- See this right here ----------->

That's me goofing off on the internet, not making any of my games. Laziest man alive, me.


Specific advice requires a specific question. If you're starting from nothing with no skills and no foundation of a self-built library whatsoever..... it's going to be ~three to five years before you can make anything really great.

[cj iwakura]

So you're making a cyberpunk crawler influenced by Cosmic Soldier: Psychic War, Yume Nikki and Shinya Tsukamoto? You're pretty much describing my perfect game here Do keep us updated on any progress!

As of now, I think Soul Hackers and maybe Generation Xth are the only cyberpunk DCs, so I hope you're as hyped for SH as I am.

[MX7]

Of course, bought a 3DS as soon as I heard about the Soul Hackers port

Generation Xth Looks interesting too; not a massive fan of straight up Wizardry clones, but this could be the game to sway me.

EDIT - Just tried Generation Xth: very smooth, very fun so far. Not sure it's particularly cyberpunk (unless it addresses some punky ideology later on), but definitely the most interesting Wizardry clone I've played so far.

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Currently crawling through the fifth and final (not counting bonus) dungeon on Etrian Odyssey IV. There was a clichéd backtrack the previous dungeons to open it, but feel like I'm on the home stretch now. This game has pretty much been pure joy the whole way through. Much (?) easier than the first and second games (didn't play III), but certainly no worse off for it.

[CMoon]

Really just starting with EO4 and I like it however it feels like a lot of the classes must come into their own much later. So far (level 7) only the Nightseeker, Sniper and Medic feel particularly useful. I've played the others and am noting the lack of early hard hitting skills (IE Landshark's lack of anything resembling Tornado.) I doubt this is going to eclipse III, but at the same time, III had a few game breaking synergies, and I don't know if we'll see that here. Absolutely LOVE the overland idea where you find the dungeons--it is what I was hoping for in 3 instead of a dumb sailing mini-game.

I don't even really know what that Millennium Maiden thing is. Feels too early for another EO. On the other hand, the series really needs something new.

[Formless God]

Dug up a couple games from my stash.

Tokyo Mono Hara Shi is what Persona would be if it didn't have shit combat and dungeons. Battles are grid-based and take place in the entire room. Each turn you're given some Action Points to move around and attack. You can place "traps" on the ground to affect units that step on them and actually aim and shoot at enemy weak points with your guns.

Saigo no Yakusoku no Monogatari. TP navigation with FP combat (SMT4 for the impatients?). Enemies hit hard and you can permanently lose party members. I hope I picked the wrong mode, but all the maps are revealed from the start, which is pretty stupid. The BGM is quite nice.

They're in moon only, though.

Am I wrong in this assumption and should I give them a second chance?

I'd advice against it. I don't think those two aged well at all.

Has anyone played The Dark Spire? I have it floating around but never got around to playing it.

[alamone]

Really just starting with EO4 and I like it however it feels like a lot of the classes must come into their own much later. So far (level 7) only the Nightseeker, Sniper and Medic feel particularly useful. I've played the others and am noting the lack of early hard hitting skills (IE Landshark's lack of anything resembling Tornado.) I doubt this is going to eclipse III, but at the same time, III had a few game breaking synergies, and I don't know if we'll see that here. Absolutely LOVE the overland idea where you find the dungeons--it is what I was hoping for in 3 instead of a dumb sailing mini-game.

Bad status is really strong in this game (poison, instant-death). But you don't unlock the useful skills till later (game-breaking skill increases your bad status chance, insta-death works on FOEs etc.)
During midgame my strategy was mostly to poison all enemies on first turn, and everything is dead by 1-2 turns or so. That's how strong poison is - it's even stronger than in EO1.
In the beginning you can use nightseeker to poison single target / row, but later you unlock Mystic which can poison all enemies on turn 1.
Mage class does crit damage to elemental weakness, and can increase/negate weakness, which is useful for damage dealing on bosses.
I didn't really use the swordsman class that much except for passive skills. Besides you unlock the much superior Imperial class later on (near endgame though).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Tokyo Mono Hara Shi is what Persona would be if it didn't have shit combat and dungeons.

Persona 2: Innocent Sin has got decent dungeons. Not "true" Shin MegaTen, but nothing wrong with the dungeons.

[CMoon]

Has anyone played The Dark Spire? I have it floating around but never got around to playing it.

It is sitting here collecting dust. Unlike so many games that are inspired by Wizardry, Dark Spire basically feels like it is trying to be a clone of the originally wizardry. I don't like that the party is only limited to 4 characters, but it still works. The game is more puzzle based than games like EO. I need to get back to it at some point, but honestly there are so many other dungeon crawlers I like more. That said, the wire-frame option is nice. I actually wish more dungeon crawlers offered it.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

How many party-based dungeon crawlers like Wizardry, etc, allow for custom character portraits? Preferably turn-based combat, I never was fond of Dungeon Master's real-time style that required clicking on those obtuse buttons, controls didn't feel 'natural' enough...

[Formless God]

Persona 2: Innocent Sin has got decent dungeons. Not "true" Shin MegaTen, but nothing wrong with the dungeons.

I think they're a bit straightforward and don't have enough puzzles. Better than P3/P4, at least, but not quite DDS-level yet. The bomb shelter and the optional dungeon (one of the schools iirc) were cool; the rest I blazed through without breaking a sweat.

The game is more puzzle based than games like EO. I need to get back to it at some point, but honestly there are so many other dungeon crawlers I like more. That said, the wire-frame option is nice. I actually wish more dungeon crawlers offered it.

Puzzle based sounds neat. I'll have to pick it up after I actually finish SJ for real, then. Oh, and the wireframe is lovely.

Now I have a little question. Can a dungeon crawler have FPS combat? Does a game qualify as a dungeon crawler as long as it makes the player travel a labyrinthine structure while looting items on the way? Does environment interaction matter?
My todo list has a dungeon crawler in it but I'm too incompetent to come up with any interesting ideas for turn-based combat.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Ultima Underworld and King's Field have real-time combat and FPP view.

[CMoon]

Wish someone would do a modernization/port of some of the later Ultima games. Hell, I have fond memories of Ultima 2, but am not going to bother 'emulating' it. Plus I suspect the modern games are less aggravating.

Speaking of Kingsfield, I have the PS2 one, need to go back to it. That's a game that will test your patience, in part because of the god-awful controls.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Can a dungeon crawler have FPS combat? Does a game qualify as a dungeon crawler as long as it makes the player travel a labyrinthine structure while looting items on the way? Does environment interaction matter?

I don't think you necessarily have to limit the possibilities. You could have a dungeon crawler that has real-time combat in a separate screen (the real issue there would be the large number of additional graphics) and if you wanted it class-based you'd need pallet swaps. I think if you've got an FPS dungeon crawler that's real-time, integrated combat and environment interaction just make the most sense, like Ultima Underworld or King's Field. I can't think of how you'd do FPS combat that's in a separate environment from the exploration screen, would look a bit jarring to have any sort of screen shifting...

[BryanM]

Now I have a little question. Can a dungeon crawler have FPS combat?

There was a period of time when it only had FPS combat.



I suppose you can have a guy with a gun that you control directly; the weird Daggerfall remakes seem to do ok somehow.

I personally like a party you can control though.

[cj iwakura]

Dug up a couple games from my stash.

Tokyo Mono Hara Shi is what Persona would be if it didn't have shit combat and dungeons. Battles are grid-based and take place in the entire room. Each turn you're given some Action Points to move around and attack. You can place "traps" on the ground to affect units that step on them and actually aim and shoot at enemy weak points with your guns.

Saigo no Yakusoku no Monogatari. TP navigation with FP combat (SMT4 for the impatients?). Enemies hit hard and you can permanently lose party members. I hope I picked the wrong mode, but all the maps are revealed from the start, which is pretty stupid. The BGM is quite nice.

They're in moon only, though.

Am I wrong in this assumption and should I give them a second chance?

I'd advice against it. I don't think those two aged well at all.

Has anyone played The Dark Spire? I have it floating around but never got around to playing it.

I always wanted to play TMHS, it looks great, but I had a feeling it was never coming out here. It looked too Japanese for Atlus to bother with.

I've beaten TDS during a very boring week in Pennsylvania. Great game, but it requires saintly patience to complete.

It's one of those games with a very tough beginning and middle, but once you know how it works, the endgame can be broken wide open.

Two of my favorite things about DCs: it has fantastic music(different for every new area), and lots of NPC dialogue/events.

[MX7]

Am I wrong in this assumption and should I give them a second chance?

I'd advice against it. I don't think those two aged well at all.

Sorry, couldn't let this go I'd definitely advise giving them another chance. They're a little clunky, but much more playable than even modern Wizardry clones IMO. If you fall under the spell of the relentless grey tunnels and the impossible bleakness of the narrative, then you'll never look back. Ridiculously rewarding games. If not, then Strange Journey gives you the SFC SMT 'atmos', but with a drastically reduced difficulty.

[CMoon]

Sorry, couldn't let this go I'd definitely advise giving them another chance. They're a little clunky, but much more playable than even modern Wizardry clones IMO. If you fall under the spell of the relentless grey tunnels and the impossible bleakness of the narrative, then you'll never look back. Ridiculously rewarding games. If not, then Strange Journey gives you the SFC SMT 'atmos', but with a drastically reduced difficulty.

I'll have to see what I make of Soul Hackers...word on the street is that it is sort of SMT 2.5 and is ultimately rather close to the core series.

[cj iwakura]

Sorry, couldn't let this go I'd definitely advise giving them another chance. They're a little clunky, but much more playable than even modern Wizardry clones IMO. If you fall under the spell of the relentless grey tunnels and the impossible bleakness of the narrative, then you'll never look back. Ridiculously rewarding games. If not, then Strange Journey gives you the SFC SMT 'atmos', but with a drastically reduced difficulty.

I'll have to see what I make of Soul Hackers...word on the street is that it is sort of SMT 2.5 and is ultimately rather close to the core series.

Closest thing we'll ever get localized, I bet. Male protagonist, female protagonist, occult societies, Kuzunoha clan, even has the Key of Solomon!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

How many people have played Phantasie? It seems to be a very interesting RPG, Wizardry-like in terms of character development, but movement is done overhead, even in dungeons. In fact, it really resembles a tabletop game because going into dungeons, there's a TON of stuff to interact with or worry about other than just monsters. Traps, storerooms, underground rivers, it actually describes rooms to you if you enter an interesting one, and seems to do a much better job of making the dungeons interesting than other early CRPGs, despite the plain graphics. I haven't gotten terribly far in it yet, though.