Consumer CRT vs Arcade Screen

[matrigs]

I've never really seen a conclusive topic around this, only single posts here and there in several hardware-related forums. If anyone could provide some picture comparisons, that would be great. I think fagin has both low-res cabinet screens (well, tri-synced) and a sony crt (although with a digital chassis, but whatever).

I'm talking about strictly low-res, 240p scanline shizz. No 100 Hz, digital enhancements and whatnot. I'm curious about colours, geometry and basically picture quality. I would also want to refine the topic to just curved screens (that's more a personal grudge than anything).

Fact is, that at least build quality wise, tubes have higher requirements for consumer tv sets than for arcade machines. Afaik most tv sets use A-grade tubes as opposed to B-grade tubes japanese cabs. On the other hand, arcade screens are supposed to be easy to service, hence the external geometry controls etc. But with some effort and minimal soldering skills everyone can extract pots to a remote pcb from an analog chassis.

So is an original Nanao MS-8 or MS-9 (or similar) the best way to show low-res games or is a 20$ late trinitron set able to beat it. I have found several mentions about a particular sony chassis - the ae-1 to be especially suited for arcade gaming, and giving a stellar picture. Paradroid from http://scarthunter.blogspot.fi/ would also probably defend his grundig / blaupunkt combo against any professional arcade screen.

I'm having a bit of a personal affair with this topic, as i am searching for a low-res arcade screen for months now, not caring about tv-sets in the meantime and i got unsure if it is worth the investment.

[Fudoh]

Sony BVM vs. Nanao chassis with 15khz 240p signals. The strong scanlines on the BVM is something you can find on many tr-sync chassis / monitors as well. So, if you go with an arcade cab/monitor, go with a dual-sync chassis, not a tri-sync one. A Trinitron TV set is much closer to the Nanao than to to the BVM (in regards to scanlines strength).

[ThEmperorIsDead]

That's interesting about consumer tubes being higher quality, I always thought purpose made arcade monitors would have the better tubes.

[ninn]

Megadrive
RF -> RGB on TV (no trinitron) -> Stock Monitor NAC



I can try to do a Trinitron RGB today too.

[MKL]

Arcade tubes are TV tubes. The A-grade/B-grade thing is just false. For instance, all the tubes used on Hantarex arcade monitors (15K, dual res, trisync) can be found on TV sets. I have verified this personally after opening and examining over 1200 TV sets. The tubes on Japanese arcade monitors are probably also used on Japanese TVs.

[matrigs]

Arcade tubes are TV tubes. The A-grade/B-grade thing is just false. For instance, all the tubes used on Hantarex arcade monitors (15K, dual res, trisync) can be found on TV sets. I have verified this personally after opening and examining over 1200 TV sets. The tubes on Japanese arcade monitors are probably also used on Japanese TVs.

Yes, in fact you can even find tv-sets with toshiba tubes on the european market (e.g. the Hitachi 27AX4B uses the A68KSA30X which works with an MS-9 chassis). Sadly, usually companies don't state the tube model on the tv or manual, so you basically have to buy one blindfolded.

This does however not rule out that A/B grading. It just means that a tube that might have been scrapped for consumer purposes can still end up in an arcade cabinet. The tubes might not even have different serial numbers.

Also - look at how different the same screens in arcade cabinets are. For example the Sanwa 29e31s in Sega Naomis. Two identical tubes can have huge differences in sharpness, convergence etc. It might be a thing of extensive usage, but i can imagine that manufacturing might have an impact on that.

Megadrive
RF -> RGB on TV (no trinitron) -> Stock Monitor NAC
I can try to do a Trinitron RGB today too.

Sorry but what does "RF" mean? Also, that NAC picture is AMAZING. Is that TV also 29"?

Sony BVM vs. Nanao chassis with 15khz 240p signals. The strong scanlines on the BVM is something you can find on many tr-sync chassis / monitors as well. So, if you go with an arcade cab/monitor, go with a dual-sync chassis, not a tri-sync one. A Trinitron TV set is much closer to the Nanao than to to the BVM (in regards to scanlines strength).

If you wouldn't tell, i would be convinced that metal slug pic is from an LCD. The scanlines are harsh but that picture is pure sex. That second picture is a Nanao right? It looks worse than ninns pictures. I wouldn't go for a tri-sync chassis anyway, as i'm a bit of a geometry-whore and tri-syncs have that side compression thing going on. At least those rodotron 666 chassis for sanwa 29e31s monitors. Also those chassis still go for like 150 pounds. I can have 4-5 big Trinitrons for that.

[ninn]

Sorry but what does "RF" mean? Also, that NAC picture is AMAZING. Is that TV also 29"?

RF is the Antenna-Cable. One step below composhit. I just happen to have that picture handy.
The TV was 28" or 29".

[matrigs]

RF is the Antenna-Cable. One step below composhit. I just happen to have that picture handy.
The TV was 28" or 29".

Ah, ok got you.

Actually this is pretty interesting - the RF one looks, at least regarding the scanlines and pixel size, better than the rgb one. Just the colours are terribly terrible.

That Nanao wins so much in this comparison it hurts.

[EDIT]

I'm also kind of curious if there is any difference at all with how a TV chassis handles rgb compared to an arcade chassis.

[ninn]

Actually this is pretty interesting - the RF one looks, at least regarding the scanlines and pixel size, better than the rgb one.

because the middle one is not in focus.

[fagin]

The A-grade/B-grade thing is just false.

Not true. Just because a Hantarex uses a tube made for domestic use, does not mean it can't be A-Grade. The grade of the screen is the grade of the screen, regardless of what or how it is used.

In general, Chinese CRT's are B-Graded.

[fagin]

Also - look at how different the same screens in arcade cabinets are. For example the Sanwa 29e31s in Sega Naomis. Two identical tubes can have huge differences in sharpness, convergence etc. It might be a thing of extensive usage, but i can imagine that manufacturing might have an impact on that.

Exactly and the reason why these specific screens are classed as B-Grade!

[fagin]

So is an original Nanao MS-8 or MS-9 (or similar) the best way to show low-res games or is a 20$ late trinitron set able to beat it. I have found several mentions about a particular sony chassis - the ae-1 to be especially suited for arcade gaming, and giving a stellar picture. Paradroid from http://scarthunter.blogspot.fi/ would also probably defend his grundig / blaupunkt combo against any professional arcade screen.

I think you maybe splitting (pubic) hairs on this one.

"the best way" is subjective to say the least.

A Nanao 8 or 9 is a very nice 15khz screen. Is it sharper, have better geometry, colours and convergence than a domestic £20 Sony CRT - maybe/maybe not - there is no out and out yes/no to that imo.

Is a Nanao 8 or 9 better than a PVM (in the same aspects as above)? - a latter spec PVM, I very much doubt it.

Is a Nanao 8 or 9 better than a BVM - GET A GRIP!



With regard to the AE-1 chassis, my personal experience is that it does not provide any better picture over say a BE chassis.

[MKL]

The A-grade/B-grade thing is just false.

Not true. Just because a Hantarex uses a tube made for domestic use, does not mean it can't be A-Grade. The grade of the screen is the grade of the screen, regardless of what or how it is used.

In general, Chinese CRT's are B-Graded.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Nobody questions that CRTs vary in quality from one brand to another. Nobody will ever say that the Lithuanian manufacturer Ekranas makes tubes of the same quality as the Japanese manufacturer Toshiba. But what matrigs claims is that a specific tube model (same brand, same code same everything) is destined to the arcade market if it shows imperfections or to the TV market if it meets quality standards. Accordingly, for example, a Philips A66EAK552X44 found in a Hantarex Polo Star wouldn't be as good as a Philips A66EAK552X44 found in a Philips TV. Now, if someone makes such a far-reaching claim then he needs support it with evidence, like secondary codes/markings/etc. Heck, the people that make them would need a way to distinguish the perfect from the imperfect tube, wouldn't they? So my take on the matter is that as long as there isn't such evidence, this kind of A-/B-grading is just an unverified rumor (aka forum BS).

[matrigs]

Now, if someone makes such a far-reaching claim then he needs support it with evidence, like secondary codes/markings/etc. Heck, the people that make them would need a way to distinguish the perfect from the imperfect tube, wouldn't they? So my take on the matter is that as long as there isn't such evidence, this kind of A-/B-grading is just an unverified rumor (aka forum BS).

First, it's not like i am defending this with my life, so chill out and stay on topic please.

Secondly, this claim has been backed up several times by grantspain from the arcade otaku forums, who has HUGE knowledge about arcade monitors and is the man to ask about technical problems with them. I'm not sure he would swear for it with a gun to his head, but i can say for sure that he is someone to believe.

"the best way" is subjective to say the least.

A Nanao 8 or 9 is a very nice 15khz screen. Is it sharper, have better geometry, colours and convergence than a domestic £20 Sony CRT - maybe/maybe not - there is no out and out yes/no to that imo.

Is a Nanao 8 or 9 better than a PVM (in the same aspects as above)? - a latter spec PVM, I very much doubt it.

Is a Nanao 8 or 9 better than a BVM - GET A GRIP!

With regard to the AE-1 chassis, my personal experience is that it does not provide any better picture over say a BE chassis.

don't you have an fe-1 chassis in your trin? well it doesn't matter that much, although i have to admit that digital chassis bother me with fiddling around in the service menu with every console change. i also dislike changing geometry in "steps", rather than a linear pot. i have a weakness for pots. and as i said above you can extract them.

the ae-1 chassis is supposed to work great in conjunction with groovymame, as it works with a lot of different modelists and rarely goes out of sync, even with very unorthodox resolutions.

my question stands - is it worth going for it?

[fagin]

The A-grade/B-grade thing is just false.

Not true. Just because a Hantarex uses a tube made for domestic use, does not mean it can't be A-Grade. The grade of the screen is the grade of the screen, regardless of what or how it is used.

In general, Chinese CRT's are B-Graded.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Nobody questions that CRTs vary in quality from one brand to another. Nobody will ever say that the Lithuanian manufacturer Ekranas makes tubes of the same quality as the Japanese manufacturer Toshiba. But what matrigs claims is that a specific tube model (same brand, same code same everything) is destined to the arcade market if it shows imperfections or to the TV market if it meets quality standards. Accordingly, for example, a Philips A66EAK552X44 found in a Hantarex Polo Star wouldn't be as good as a Philips A66EAK552X44 found in a Philips TV. Now, if someone makes such a far-reaching claim then he needs support it with evidence, like secondary codes/markings/etc. Heck, the people that make them would need a way to distinguish the perfect from the imperfect tube, wouldn't they? So my take on the matter is that as long as there isn't such evidence, this kind of A-/B-grading is just an unverified rumor (aka forum BS).

Based on what you have further stated I agree, with regard to that reasoning of A and B grade stock. My reference is the overall "trade" grading of tube stock for a specific model of tube, not in reference to how it is used.

[fagin]

don't you have an fe-1 chassis in your trin? well it doesn't matter that much, although i have to admit that digital chassis bother me with fiddling around in the service menu with every console change. i also dislike changing geometry in "steps", rather than a linear pot. i have a weakness for pots. and as i said above you can extract them.

the ae-1 chassis is supposed to work great in conjunction with groovymame, as it works with a lot of different modelists and rarely goes out of sync, even with very unorthodox resolutions.

my question stands - is it worth going for it?

I have Sony's with the AE, BE and FE chassis.

With regards to your lasting question..... for $20 stick with the Sony imo.

[matrigs]

elaborating a bit more:

For me personally, the PVMs and BVMs are out of the question. I like big tubes and i cannot lie and it is impossible to get an above 20" screen in Poland at least, and the prize for shiping from abroad would kill me. Also, those 20" ones floating around average like 400 euro, which i am not happy to pay for such a small screen. I'm not even sure how availlable they are in western europe / rest of the world but i can imagine it's not easy.

On the other hand, there are plenty of old arcade machines floating around, which usually have the screen model stated in the manual. There are lots of dedicated Sega Cabs which have those. For example:

http://allegro.pl/symulator-crazy-taxi- ... 42879.html - not even 40 euro, but i'm pretty sure there is actually a hi-res only toshiba screen in it. still better than a naomi sanwa.

http://allegro.pl/symulator-virtual-on- ... 61617.html - this is rad. 100 euro for two dual-sync nanaos. just unsure if ms8 or ms9.

Still, those are on the other side of the country, in and untested state etc. I guess that's a 300 euro deal in the end.

Again - this questioning about those screens started as i'm getting pretty mad at my sanwa 29e31s in my sega naomi. I would really want to replace it with anything else if possible. A rodotron 666 is 150 pounds + side compression, bleh.

And then i saw this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTo3Cn6J8Yo
He's mentioning you fagin so it must have been you who talked him into this

[edit]

why do people not use edit anymore ?

[edit 2]

I have Sony's with the AE, BE and FE chassis.

anything to elaborate about those?

[MKL]

this claim has been backed up several times by grantspain from the arcade otaku forums, who has HUGE knowledge about arcade monitors and is the man to ask about technical problems with them. I'm not sure he would swear for it with a gun to his head, but i can say for sure that he is someone to believe.

Let's see:

http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic. ... de#p204524

That's not correct. The letter at the beginning of the tube code isn't the grade but the tube type with reference to the dot pitch. "A" is a 0.8mm pitch used for TVs, "M" is a finer pitch typical of hi-res monitors. No tube starts with "B". So if the A-grade/B-grade theory comes from there, it's easily debunked.

[fagin]

Not sure I talked him into it, but I remember we had a few conversations.

The only thing worth while elaborating about the chassis is for for gaming I saw no decernible difference in PQ imo. I was quite disappointed in reality based on what I had read else where.

[matrigs]

Not sure I talked him into it, but I remember we had a few conversations.

Looks like it, because half a year before that post that MKL linked, this:

http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic. ... de#p173768

http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic. ... de#p124201

The only thing worth while elaborating about the chassis is for gaming I saw no decernible difference in PQ imo. I was quite disappointed in reality based on what I had read else where.

No difference even between the analog and digital chassis? What disappointed you? PQ in general, geometry, etc?

[MKL]

half a year before that post that MKL linked, this:

http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic. ... de#p173768

http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic. ... de#p124201

As I've shown, that guy isn't quite familiar with CRT codes so those unsupported statements aren't worth much. You would need to talk to someone that actually worked in the CRT industry, not too difficult in Poland which had an important CRT manufacturing plant in Piaseczno near Warsaw. That would be a much more reliable source.

[matrigs]

I wrote a pm to grantspain and he confirms that the "A" in the beginning of the crt code is in fact, the grading.

Helpful link from grant: http://www.tubecollector.org/documents/numbers-16.htm

Also: "A is like consumer grade tv,B is obviously lower grade,M is monitor/commercial grade and I think R is a reject
Most earlier arcade monitors were b grade and i have seen a couple of r grade on wells gardners"

So it seems that arcade monitors being B grade is not a legend but it isn't true for modern times and somehow this cliche kind of sticked.

And we all learned something new.

Still it strikes me as odd how much the exact same arcade monitor can differ in PQ, even after intensive tweaking. This, of course still might be true in consumer tv sets, but is just harder to check due to the sheer amount of different model out there.

[edit]

I can try to do a Trinitron RGB today too.

would be great if you would find the chance to do that.

also fagin - do you care enough to maybe shoot a picture or two between your tri-syncs, and your trinis?

[MKL]

I wrote a pm to grantspain and he confirms that the "A" in the beginning of the crt code is in fact, the grading.

Helpful link from grant: http://www.tubecollector.org/documents/numbers-16.htm

Also: "A is like consumer grade tv,B is obviously lower grade,M is monitor/commercial grade and I think R is a reject
Most earlier arcade monitors were b grade and i have seen a couple of r grade on wells gardners"

He keeps using the term "grade" as a quality marker instead of a typology. He insist on this "B" grade when even that link doesn't list "B" as a possible initial letter in codes. I have a collection of 85 CRTs (selected from over 1000) which include practically all CRTs used by Hantarex since the early 80's which basically covers the whole arcade era. Back in the early 80's there were such codes as A51-421X, A-51-231X, A66-540X and many more I could list. Not a single case of B51-421X etc.

[Fudoh]

I have a collection of 85 CRTs

Compulsive hoarding ?

[ChuChu Flamingo]

The best CRT is subjective. Some CRTS are sharper, some have better geometry, and some have better colors. Each tube has its disadvantages.

I don't think it is fair to compare an Arcade monitor that has been sitting in a Japanese smoke stack to a professional quality monitor such as a BVM or Trinitron (which were made to stand up to the abuse and long hours of professional usage).

Nanao MS9 (found in quite a lot of japanese arcade cabinets) seems to be pretty good. With this in mind the convergence seems to go out of whack over time in the corners. Probably the convergence strips are becoming demagnetized. I wish this chassis had a rotational pot, as a lot of them (mine included) have their yoke tilted just slightly.

[Wonderbanana]

Nanao MS9 (found in quite a lot of japanese arcade cabinets) seems to be pretty good. I wish this chassis had a rotational pot, as a lot of them (mine included) have their yoke tilted just slightly.

Mines the same, slightly out in upper right. Cracking picture though.

[fagin]

also fagin - do you care enough to maybe shoot a picture or two between your tri-syncs, and your trinis?

Unfortunately I don't care enough!

Seriously though.... all of my Sony Trinitrons are now in storage. Whilst possible, it's going to be a major ballache for me to take them out of storage to do this, so practically won't happen any time soon.

[kamiboy]

I just came back from a vacation in Japan where I got to lay eyes on some arcade monitors for the first time in, what, 20 years. Despite being a high end PVM owner I was impressed by their image quality. They looked fantastic to be honest. Much better than I imagined. I saw these in the arcade on the upper floor of Super Potato in Akihabara. Colours were nice and vibrant and scanlines sharp and pronounced.

Unless you are a stone cold videophile I say the margin of quality is small between an arcade monitor and professional CRT.

[monouchi]

Ive been through a lot of arcade monitors and CRT tvs...and for low res jamma The MS9 always wins for me. (for 29" size).
And after some cleaning, change of cap-kit and sometimes change the hori chip...then with a tuned picture it is amazing.