PS4 / Xbox One console war

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BulletMagnet
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Re: PS4 - Holiday 2013 Launch (Playstation4)

Post by BulletMagnet »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Pachter thinks that Sony's not incuding Move in every box is a strategic failure.
Did he seriously say this? Some of the things he says make a fair amount of sense on their faces, but I'm not sure where the heck he'd get that impression from, considering how few of the handful of Move releases that do exist have made much of an impression, and I'm not aware of much promise on the horizon offhand.
Yeah, he's wrong a lot because he likely only has a little more info than we do and is just piecing together the specifics through some financial analysis.
...and is paid very well to do so, seemingly regardless of the results. I always wonder who invents, let alone compensates, such seemingly impractical high-level corporate positions of that sort.
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Re: PS4 - Holiday 2013 Launch (Playstation4)

Post by Ed Oscuro »

BulletMagnet wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:Pachter thinks that Sony's not incuding Move in every box is a strategic failure.
Did he seriously say this? Some of the things he says make a fair amount of sense on their faces, but I'm not sure where the heck he'd get that impression from, considering how few of the handful of Move releases that do exist have made much of an impression, and I'm not aware of much promise on the horizon offhand.
Not in as many words, but I thought it was implied. I don't actually recall what he said about Move other than mentioning it; he might've been noncommittal. Here's a paraphrase from memory of what he said:

Kinect sold an "absurd" (I actually don't know what he meant here) number of units, like 24 million, but didn't get very good software support. Clearly it was a kind of trial run for the console full release.

I don't know if he got into the heart of the issue, which is whether it's right to look at the peripheral as really central to the success of one machine versus the other. So far there's no sign that gamers are demanding titles with Move, Kinect, or Wiimote style motion control, and forcing it into more traditional games may well be resented. Certainly there may be some players who would avoid or seek out a particular version of a game (if they had both consoles) based on whether it supports or requires a motion controller, but the economist says in me the scientist better settle down; it would be very expensive to miscalculate here by including the device and forcing support into games where it's resented, whereas not including the device and making it an extra option looks, ironically, more like the approach Microsoft is taking for BC: An optional extra if you want it.
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - May require Online to Start/Play Ga

Post by PAPER/ARTILLERY »

Jeneki wrote:Leaning tower of expansions
That's glorious.
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - May require Online to Start/Play Ga

Post by Friendly »

There are now reports that Xbox 3 will be revealed on 21 May.
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by missingLink »

Looking forward to that hardware reveal.

Hopefully they will finally say what kind of tech they gonna use in the new xbox and that this is not just some markting-talk.

And perhaps shed some light on that always-on-thing.
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by DrTrouserPlank »

It's fairly likely that the always online thing is going to be scaled back from what they originally planned because they have obviously designed the console on what they thought Sony was doing, but what Sony was actually doing turned out to be a little different to what they expected. It may have just be "always online" i.e. background downloads but whatever; they either scale it back or they use their money and promote their machine as being more "anti-piracy" to third party devs in order to secure exclusives.

Jury's still out on the RAM situation. I don't think it matters that much. We are still talking about games struggling to run at 30fps and being developed on one console and then effectively ported to the other. Unless the 720 utterly sucks (which would be the biggest surprise of all) the reveal and the comparison between the two consoles will be roughly what everyone expects. With the way that everyone is developing for every console now it matters more what console the game was developed on rather than the hardware that is in the box playing it.
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Re: PS4 - Holiday 2013 Launch (Playstation4)

Post by Friendly »

Complete hardware details (official):
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1 ... _mark_.php
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Re: PS4 - Holiday 2013 Launch (Playstation4)

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Supercharged! They strapped a big air intake on the front?

PCI-E 3 gives you about 15 GB/sec in bandwidth. 176GB/sec is far ahead of that, sure. However! How many PC applications really are bothered by this, especially 3D games? How much does RAM access really slow down MAME, especially on CPUs with massive caches? :lol: I'd like to see more general computing functions move close to the GPU for many devices, sure, and I'd like PCs to be greatly refined in this area.

Of course, 176GB/sec is already far below what's seen on even slightly older GPUs now. It is interesting and laudable if they can achieve that for a CPU, given how bad the situation appears on PCs.

That might not be the point, however; Johnathon Swift / Karl E, in the comments, point out some interesting things. I also notice that GPU onboard RAM hasn't been increased appreciably over the last few years - although people tell you they always can use more RAM, it's starting to look a bit like the situation with hard drives stuck at 64MB at most for an onboard buffer, and people routinely say in video card reviews that the extra RAM isn't making a difference for games except at higher resolutions (beyond 1080p). But I don't know what a console's supposed to do otherwise in order to stay relevant for the next 10 years, anyway. PS4 will probably just end up being easier to emulate someday...on a PC, of course. It would definitely be nice if the PC folks got together and found a way to improve the "closeness" of the components on a PC, but you will still be able to beat the crap outta a PS4 with a PC soon, if not immediately, and new components just make this even better.

I guess this is where consoles were destined to head, anyway: Little boxes keeping as much precomputed as possible so they don't have to do a lot of heavy lifting in real time.

It'll be interesting to see if Microsoft ends up getting this right, too.
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Re: PS4 - Holiday 2013 Launch (Playstation4)

Post by Friendly »

This sounds like the important part:
"The 'supercharged' part, a lot of that comes from the use of the single unified pool of high-speed memory," said Cerny. The PS4 packs 8GB of GDDR5 RAM that's easily and fully addressable by both the CPU and GPU.

If you look at a PC, said Cerny, "if it had 8 gigabytes of memory on it, the CPU or GPU could only share about 1 percent of that memory on any given frame. That's simply a limit imposed by the speed of the PCIe. So, yes, there is substantial benefit to having a unified architecture on PS4, and it’s a very straightforward benefit that you get even on your first day of coding with the system.
BTW, Mark Cerny is a stroke of luck for Sony. The guy really is incredibly talented. Allowing him to design PS4 was a wise decision.

You should watch this discussion from six months ago (about game design), it's long but VERY interesting and will deepen your understanding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiboVZsXYXY
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Re: PS4 - Holiday 2013 Launch (Playstation4)

Post by louisg »

Friendly wrote:This sounds like the important part:
"The 'supercharged' part, a lot of that comes from the use of the single unified pool of high-speed memory," said Cerny. The PS4 packs 8GB of GDDR5 RAM that's easily and fully addressable by both the CPU and GPU.

If you look at a PC, said Cerny, "if it had 8 gigabytes of memory on it, the CPU or GPU could only share about 1 percent of that memory on any given frame. That's simply a limit imposed by the speed of the PCIe. So, yes, there is substantial benefit to having a unified architecture on PS4, and it’s a very straightforward benefit that you get even on your first day of coding with the system.
BTW, Mark Cerny is a stroke of luck for Sony. The guy really is incredibly talented. Allowing him to design PS4 was a wise decision.
Wait, a Sony system that's *easier* to get performance out of than everything else? Has the world gone mad? Next thing you know it won't actually cost an arm and a leg!
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Re: PS4 - Holiday 2013 Launch (Playstation4)

Post by Jonathan Ingram »

louisg wrote:Wait, a Sony system that's *easier* to get performance out of than everything else? Has the world gone mad?
PSX? Vita?
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by Friendly »

http://windowsitpro.com/paul-thurrotts- ... -next-xbox
Launch. The next Xbox will launch in early November 2013.

Windows 8 Core. The next Xbox is based on the "Core" (base) version of Windows 8. This suggests a common apps platform or at least one that is similar to that used by Windows 8. It also suggests that Microsoft could open up this platform to enthusiast developers. (That last bit is supposition on my part.)

Price. Microsoft will initially offer two pricing models for the console: a standalone version for $499 and a $299 version that requires a two-year Xbox LIVE Gold commitment at an expected price of $10 per month.

No entertainment box. Microsoft originally planned to offer both a “full” version of the next Xbox (with video game playing capabilities) and a lower-end entertainment-oriented version, code-named “Yuma,” that didn't provide gaming capabilities. But plans for Yuma are on hold, and no pure entertainment version of the next Xbox will appear in 2013 (or possibly ever).

Blu-ray. The next Xbox will include a Blu-ray optical drive.

Internet-connected. The next Xbox must be Internet-connected to use. This is the source of the “always on”/“always online” rumors and isn’t as Draconian as many seem to believe.
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by hail good sir »

smokin
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by Friendly »

I actually had a completely different thought than you: What if the $300 version has forced online, but the $500 version doesn't? Awesome, permanent subscription guaranteed :P

If Microsoft once more withholds online-gaming along with free and paid third party services by putting them behind their "Gold" paywall, you'll have no choice but to pay anyway, unless you want a crippled system. And once you start to pay (and build your game library and friend list), you'll be locked in.
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by Skykid »

The only thing to note is, Xbox Live has been a great service, by far the best online console gaming experience to date. If you're heavily into making use of your purchase's online features, I don't think people will have an issue paying for a subscription.

What will be an issue (for M$) is if Sony roll out an online service as good as, or better than, for free. Then they really won't have a leg to stand on.

I'm sure M$ have considered this possibility, but seem to be hedging their bets that Sony's online infrastructure will remain inferior. Time will tell.

For me the pricing structure is totally inane, and given the option I'd buy the cheaper (although I won't be buying either until a price drop.)
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by Cuilan »

Price. Microsoft will initially offer two pricing models for the console: a standalone version for $499 and a $299 version that requires a two-year Xbox LIVE Gold commitment at an expected price of $10 per month.
This is really odd...

24 months of Gold for $10/month = $240
$240 for Gold + $300 for console = $540

Console at full price = $500
Paying for 2 years of Gold at MSRP = $120
So total for that would be = $620

Even if you buy Gold subs on sale for $30~$40, the subsidized model ends up being a better value in the end. The full priced console is only a better deal if you absolutely hate Gold. What a bizarre pricing scheme. There has to be some sort of catch, unless MS *REALLY* wants to encourage people to buy the subsidized model, which would sort-of make sense since it would mean more people using XBL and Gold.
:lol:
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by Giest118 »

Friendly wrote:Internet-connected. The next Xbox must be Internet-connected to use. This is the source of the “always on”/“always online” rumors and isn’t as Draconian as many seem to believe.
This quote is fucking incredible. Did a human write this? I need to know if a human wrote this. If it was a human, was it a lady named Marie Antoinette? BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE ANYONE ELSE MISSING THE FUCKING POINT SO HARD.
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by Friendly »

Idea for the name of the next Xbox:

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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by Drachenherz »

Friendly wrote:Idea for the name of the next Xbox:

Image
Holy... :idea:
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by BIL »

Giest118 wrote:
Friendly wrote:Internet-connected. The next Xbox must be Internet-connected to use. This is the source of the “always on”/“always online” rumors and isn’t as Draconian as many seem to believe.
This quote is fucking incredible. Did a human write this? I need to know if a human wrote this. If it was a human, was it a lady named Marie Antoinette? BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE ANYONE ELSE MISSING THE FUCKING POINT SO HARD.
Maybe it was Sweet Billy?
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Nah, it was Paul Thurott.

Paul Thurott and Ed Bott are smart guys but they are also pretty obvious shills for Microsoft sometimes, especially with trying to write things relevant for the gamer who they apparently don't understand. Thurott might have some reason for saying this, though; I hope it means that the game won't kick you out if you aren't connected, but the plain meaning of the sentence seems to contradict that. I wonder what the "countdown to crashing out" timer is like in this system.
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by Friendly »

Paul Thurott wrote:By the way, I did screw up one thing: The $299 version of Xbox v.Next will come with a $15/mo XBLG subscription, not $10. Sorry about that.
(15 USD per month = 180 USD per year for XBLG)

24x15 + 299 = $659 USD

"SIX HUNDRED FIFTY-NINE US-DOLLARS"

Ahahahahahaha.
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by Friendly »

Since it hasn't been mentioned here: There was a "leaked" internal email a while ago that said Xbox 3 wasn't going to have forced online. It conveniently popped up exactly when lots of consumers were voicing their protest. Make of that what you will; I have little doubt that MS was indeed considering forced online (as was mentioned in the design documents) but backpaddled after the enormous backlash. Looks like internet protests can have an effect after all.

Don't worry though, some corporate asshole is probably going to revive the idea for next next gen.
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by Marc »

There won't be a next gen. By the time these consoles have lasted 7-8 years, budgets will be out of control, mobile platforms will be not far behind, and the face of gaming will have changed forever. Shit, I'm 35, by the time I'm 50, an extra box under the TV just for games will seem like a bizarre excentricity to my kids.
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by burgerkingdiamond »

It's fun to laugh at how stupid video games are getting. I don't understand why anybody cares anymore.

Everyone just do your selves a favor and buy a super gun and some PCBs. And if this bothers you as much as it bothers me then don't buy this shit.
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by ChurchOfSolipsism »

burgerkingdiamond wrote:It's fun to laugh at how stupid video games are getting. I don't understand why anybody cares anymore.

Everyone just do your selves a favor and buy a super gun and some PCBs. And if this bothers you as much as it bothers me then don't buy this shit.
Listen to this man, he's speaking the truth...
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by Jeneki »

burgerkingdiamond wrote:Everyone just do your selves a favor and buy a super gun and some PCBs.
Sssssshhhhhh! No need to encourage more demand to drive up prices. :P
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Re: Xbox 3 ("Durango") - To be Unveiled 21 May

Post by Marc »

burgerkingdiamond wrote:It's fun to laugh at how stupid video games are getting. I don't understand why anybody cares anymore.

Everyone just do your selves a favor and buy a super gun and some PCBs. And if this bothers you as much as it bothers me then don't buy this shit.
Cause there's still some good stuff out there? Playing old stuff exclusively is as retarded as kids that won't play anything older than current gen.
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Re: PS4 - Holiday 2013 Launch (Playstation4)

Post by BryanM »

That's a really shitty music video to try and get us excited about a big black box.

Here's some Persona 3 music videos to balance out the universe. They're extremely animu and may or may not include j-rap:

teh original

teh FES
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