Practice modes and Save States - What do you think?

[Icarus]

How complete is the system knowledge chapter? It's got a version number, but no version exists on the internet as far as I can tell.

It's about 5-10% done, by my reckoning. Loads more needs to go in, then proofread and tidied up before a readable version can be released. It's big, so I might have to split it up into sub-sections.
I should probably write one of the other chapters first, since they're likely to be much shorter than the System Knowledge chapter. :p

[DrTrouserPlank]

Since going back and playing stage 3 of Futari a few times over the last couple of days it's become pretty obvious to me just how many times I must have run these stages over the course of owning the game.

Running the stage 10 times back to back feels like nothing. I would say that I'd run it 10-15 times per session I played. Sometimes I do that 2-3 times per day when I was playing it frequently. This for months at a time. I must have run stages 3-5 in excess of 200-300 times each, probably more.

Running stage 3 about 20 times yielded

0 no-misses
about 3-4 clears within 3 lives
plenty of game overs.

Whilst I never guaranteed no-missing it back when I played regularly I certainly did it more often than that, and would obviously clear it within 3 lives almost always. It kind of illustrates how you end up back at square one when you stop playing the game/genre for any length of time.

[cools]

I play these:

How can I save state practice?

[trap15]

Ibara (and probably MMP/PS) has a stage select

Also, I just finished a hack of Thunder Dragon 2 that adds a full 'practice' mode menu. Uploads will be incoming :3

I will probably add one for Thunder Dragon 1, then start taking some suggestions.

[Special World]

Playing practice in DOJ BLEX has made me appreciate the game so much more. I basically use it as an all-encompassing scrolling shooter training mode. And it's fun as hell in itself.

Too bad you can't select your powerup level before starting, that makes playing stage 5 a real bastard.

[NzzpNzzp]

Too bad you can't select your powerup level before starting, that makes playing stage 5 a real bastard.

Press start on the practice menu.
Still can't change the rank or hypers, though.

[cools]

Ibara (and probably MMP/PS) has a stage select

Stage select != save state Especially not with rank, weapons and bomb stock being so crucial in Ibara.

[trap15]

Ah, that's a fair point.

[Special World]

Too bad you can't select your powerup level before starting, that makes playing stage 5 a real bastard.

Press start on the practice menu.
Still can't change the rank or hypers, though.

Didn't work :O

[NzzpNzzp]

Didn't work :O

You sure? There's no menu or confirmation or anything, but if you start the game by pressing start instead of A you should be full power. It works for me, at least!

[Special World]

Yeah, I realized that it *did*work right after I posted. Kinda weird that it's all or nothing, but I guess that doesn't matter much from stage 3 onwards. Thanks for the tip!

[Bananamatic]

Whilst I never guaranteed no-missing it back when I played regularly I certainly did it more often than that, and would obviously clear it within 3 lives almost always. It kind of illustrates how you end up back at square one when you stop playing the game/genre for any length of time.

play touhou

it's good for ya

[R-Gray 1]

I think Save states is normal for some people who likes scoring and trying to get 1cc. Good for practice/memorizing i though

I preffer much more practice mode i dont like save states.

[iconoclast]

I don't see much of a difference between save states and a good practice mode (ie. one that gives you lots of options, like Daifukkatsu, Espgaluda 2, and Mushi IIRC).

[Edmond Dantes]

Personally I consider savestates a form of cheating, but that being said: Sometimes cheating feels good.

If I want to actually get good at a game, I won't savestate. If, however, I want to just beat it, then I'll cheat to my heart's content.

[Squire Grooktook]

If I want to actually get good at a game, I won't savestate. If, however, I want to just beat it, then I'll cheat to my heart's content.

Personally I would go the other way around.

[ACSeraph]

Personally I consider savestates a form of cheating, but that being said: Sometimes cheating feels good.

If I want to actually get good at a game, I won't savestate. If, however, I want to just beat it, then I'll cheat to my heart's content.

I think we just hit the second loop on this thread...

[Hagane]

This must be the only place where practicing equals cheating.

[Ed Oscuro]

I wonder how many people read the koan.

Personally I consider savestates a form of cheating, but that being said: Sometimes cheating feels good.

In the last seven arcade games that I've been involved with, there were 2.5 million players who have achieved individual scores of 12 trillion points. Thank you. I am not a destroyer of gameplay. I am a liberator of players! The point is, ladies and gentleman, that savestate practice, for lack of a better word, is good. Savestates are right; savestates work. Savestating clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Savestating, in all of its forms; practice for the no-miss, for points, for efficiency in time, for inspiring play has marked the upward surge of players. And savestates, you mark my words, will not only save Shmups, but that other malfunctioning scene called gaming. Thank you very much.

[blackoak]

hahahah. well done.

[KAI]

Fuck Michael Douglas, for efficiency in time my ass.

[Moleculoman]

I think ones perspective on this will be shaped by a couple factors. A lot of us who grew up playing arcade and console games had no choice but to credit feed and little by little make small improvements. We got stuck on a certain boss or stg and hit a wall. You eventually break through and now its the final boss. He seems impossible, overwhelming etc. There is a great sense of accomplishent and exhiliration when you finally beat the game by the skin of your teeth. It made you want to do it again and do better. This is the long and hard road to mastering the game.


As others have mentioned already, you lose some of that with save states. Emulation has been a godsend for making obscure stuff more accessable, but using saves states, I think robs the player of the the experience of playing "in the moment." At least for games you truly love and want the best experience possible. I don't use save states for shooters, as I've found that playing from start to finish allows you to find out new things, from mistakes you make, doing something different that scored higher. Finding out that gun you thought was shitty is great for this one section. You rarely ever find these new strats or tricks with states, especially if you jump to lvl 4 and focus your play that way. You're more in the zone when playing from start, vs jumping directly to a stg cold turkey.

That being said, I DO think save states are beneficial AFTER you've conquered a game the ole fashioned way. You still keep playing from start to finish, and use states to jump to a particular boss that you've beaten already to try out new strats etc. As already stated, it saves time versus playing from the beginning.

TL/DR ver. = Play the game as it was meant too. Work in save states to practice, but still regularly play through the game as much as possible, keeping save state usage to a minimum.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

This must be the only place where practicing equals cheating.

This.

[Ed Oscuro]

TL/DR ver. = Play the game as it was meant too.

Yes, I agree, everybody should play through on one credit after they're done with their practice

[Nasirosuchus]

I think ones perspective on this will be shaped by a couple factors. A lot of us who grew up playing arcade and console games had no choice but to credit feed and little by little make small improvements. We got stuck on a certain boss or stg and hit a wall. You eventually break through and now its the final boss. He seems impossible, overwhelming etc. There is a great sense of accomplishent and exhiliration when you finally beat the game by the skin of your teeth. It made you want to do it again and do better. This is the long and hard road to mastering the game.


As others have mentioned already, you lose some of that with save states. Emulation has been a godsend for making obscure stuff more accessable, but using saves states, I think robs the player of the the experience of playing "in the moment." At least for games you truly love and want the best experience possible. I don't use save states for shooters, as I've found that playing from start to finish allows you to find out new things, from mistakes you make, doing something different that scored higher. Finding out that gun you thought was shitty is great for this one section. You rarely ever find these new strats or tricks with states, especially if you jump to lvl 4 and focus your play that way. You're more in the zone when playing from start, vs jumping directly to a stg cold turkey.

That being said, I DO think save states are beneficial AFTER you've conquered a game the ole fashioned way. You still keep playing from start to finish, and use states to jump to a particular boss that you've beaten already to try out new strats etc. As already stated, it saves time versus playing from the beginning.

TL/DR ver. = Play the game as it was meant too. Work in save states to practice, but still regularly play through the game as much as possible, keeping save state usage to a minimum.

The experience that someone has and what they get out of the game is completely up to them.

I can't speak for everyone else, but save states certainly didn't stop me from finding new things or developing new strategies.

Play the old fashioned way? When practice mode and level select are included in the game by default, should you just not use it at all and then start over every time you die in the same area? You may feel the need to put an arbitrary limit on yourself but some people like to make better use of their time.

[Moleculoman]

The experience that someone has and what they get out of the game is completely up to them.

I can't speak for everyone else, but save states certainly didn't stop me from finding new things or developing new strategies.

Play the old fashioned way? When practice mode and level select are included in the game by default, should you just not use it at all and then start over every time you die in the same area? You may feel the need to put an arbitrary limit on yourself but some people like to make better use of their time.

Of course...I'm only suggesting one way to maximize their experience. What they get out of it irrespective of how they approach playing is up to them, as you said.

I never said anything about practice modes and lvl select. I dont equate them to save states. My comments were strictly about save states. If a game has practice modes etc, then thats part of the experience built into the game.

Again, I'm not against ppl using states, for the obvious advantages mentioned. I just suggest using them sparingly if you can. But how you want to play is up to you.

[Kollision]

I just wish I could savestate Raiden 2....

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

This must be the only place where practicing equals cheating.

One guy got a specialized Ketsui PCB that let him practice the DOOM fight. When news of this came out, everyone got upset, he apologized and his score (achieved on a regular PCB with defaults settings) was voided.

This place and...Japan.

[iconoclast]

That's not a 1:1 comparison. That was before the game was ported to console or emulated, so that guy was the only person who could repeatedly practice the DOOM fight. He had an advantage over everybody else.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

If you keep reading his quote...

One guy got a specialized Ketsui PCB that let him practice the DOOM fight. When news of this came out, everyone got upset, he apologized and his score (achieved on a regular PCB with defaults settings) was voided. The top Japanese players do not like save states or emulators, even for practice.

Personally I think it's just a cheat against time, and not a cheat in the traditional sense, and I would not have the willpower to turn them down if I had the ports, but... Clearly it's not just a few people on this forum that have issues with it.