Etrian Odyssey - Guild of Miscellanies

[Skykid]

So I started EO (first one) on DS to see what all the fuss is about. I quite enjoyed what I played, which is only the initiation mission to create the first map, however I got my balls busted in the process. I had to revisit the town for healing and resurrection several times and even game overed once, at which point I realised a game over is more beneficial because it puts you back in the town and saves your map progress AND returns you to full health free of charge.

But is this all these games are? I was never a huge fan of the random battle dungeons in turn based RPG's and this seems to be offering me several hours of just that and little else. I'd like to learn more about the series, so fill me in on the details chaps.

[BryanM]

!!!!

But yeah, they're fun little games every few years or so. The 1st one is the worst thanks to how repetitive and LONG it takes to return to the floor you're working on, and the lack of side strafe. 2 is actually my favorite with its extra checkpoints.

~CHECKPOINTS~

[Skykid]

The 1st one is the worst thanks to how repetitive and LONG it takes to return to the floor you're working on, and the lack of side strafe. 2 is actually my favorite with its extra checkpoints.

~CHECKPOINTS~

Checkpoints? Interesting. So you don't need to start over from the town if you game over?

Also, what's side strafe, and can you clarify by what you mean by how long it takes to return to a floor: for example, you don't mean that if I'm on floor 3, that I'll need to reach the steps in floors 1 & 2 each time I need to get back there (do you?)

[Squire Grooktook]

Side strafe is basically just you press the shoulder buttons to move sideways within the dungeon without having to manually turn to the left or right then press forward to go.

I should really finish EO3.

[BryanM]

Wat. When you're dead you're dead. This isn't super mario brothers, it's real life manh.

The waypoints in the dungeon are every five floors; but EO2 has an extra one in the middle of each Stratum, at the beginning of the third floor. Saves so much time.

EO3, has paths you unlock that greatly shortens the distance needed to get to the stairs, which is passable though still annoying when you're nearing the boss. (Also, it lets you save at "camp sites" so you can scrub out against the giant fish of death a hundred times without going through it all again.(Also all the bosses in EO are giant fish.)) EO1's 2nd floor is torture iirc. A serpentine path across the entire damn map.

[Skykid]

You guys aren't making this sound like much fun.

How much grinding should I be doing early on?

[Squire Grooktook]

Can't answer that question since I didn't play EO1, but I will say that as dungeon crawlers go, these games have some really fantastic pacing and atmosphere. I do believe you will have fun.

[Ganelon]

Exploring dungeons, building up your characters, fighting interesting monsters, and collecting rare loot. What else were you expecting? That's pretty much the formula for this series and most dungeon crawlers. Grinding is a promise here, not a threat, and it only increases as you continue (with crazy amounts needed to tackle the optional stuff). The 3rd installment in the series provides some more variety but it's not a huge deviation.

If you know that you don't like random battle dungeons and turn-based battles, then you may want to stop playing. Don't push yourself into wasting time. Sometimes, you just have to accept that everyone has different tastes and move on. The genre certainly takes a certain mindset to enjoy. Even amongst dungeon crawler fans, Etrian Odyssey is a dividing point. Many newer fans seem to love it while most folks I've met online with my tastes (who prefer classic Wizardry) don't find Etrian Odyssey appealing.

I'd consider myself a big dungeon crawler aficionado and I still need a long break after finishing a good one because of the repetition that must be endured. As a result, I tend to avoid playing them nowadays and rarely beat the ones I start.

[MX7]

I find dungeon crawlers analogous to STGs in many ways. For one, they're a genre that is still going today, albeit in diminished form and with slightly prettier graphics. They are generally seen as being archaic and obtuse by most gamers. Most of all though, the elements that will put off most people actually attract the few people who play them. So Etrian Odyssey is slow, repetitive, with almost unchanging textures, stupidly hard and requires an almost obsessive ordeal to finish. To me this sounds like heaven. Same with STGs ("there are over 100 bullets on screen, it's stupidly hard, most people will never be able to finish the game even though it's technically only 25 minutes long, it's completely in 2D, there's no narrative exposition, and your reward is a high score"). I think it's telling I got into these two genres at the same time (and now I find the current FPDC scene a lot more interesting that the current STG scene; maybe Cave should go into the genre? It's definitely very much in vogue, with a small but dedicated fan base, they might even make some money!)

Here's a generic dungeon crawling thread - http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=44213

And here's a Shin Megami Tensei-centric thread, covering the daddy of Japanese post-Wizardry crawlers - http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... everything

[Squire Grooktook]

Exploring dungeons, building up your characters, fighting interesting monsters, and collecting rare loot. What else were you expecting? That's pretty much the formula for this series and most dungeon crawlers. Grinding is a promise here, not a threat, and it only increases as you continue (with crazy amounts needed to tackle the optional stuff). The 3rd installment in the series provides some more variety but it's not a huge deviation.

If you know that you don't like random battle dungeons and turn-based battles, then you may want to stop playing. Don't push yourself into wasting time. Sometimes, you just have to accept that everyone has different tastes and move on. The genre certainly takes a certain mindset to enjoy. Even amongst dungeon crawler fans, Etrian Odyssey is a dividing point. Many newer fans seem to love it while most folks I've met online with my tastes (who prefer classic Wizardry) don't find Etrian Odyssey appealing.

I'd consider myself a big dungeon crawler aficionado and I still need a long break after finishing a good one because of the repetition that must be endured. As a result, I tend to avoid playing them nowadays and rarely beat the ones I start.

One thing I will add to this though, is that taking advantage of it's nature as a portable series helps A LOT.

I usually don't like to play games when I'm out and about. Who wants to experience an epic boss battle or a shocking plot twist when you're sitting in a waiting room with sun in your eye's? But with a game like this, you can do all the grinding, the fun character building and preparation while you're out, and then enjoy the fun bits to your hearts content when you get back home.

Personally, EO3 is the game that changed my mind about oldschool dungeon crawlers. I went into it believing "turn based combat is a relic of a bygone era, there is no need for it to exist" but this game just turned me on to dungeon crawling, preparation, and role playing in these kinds of games. It's just a very well crafted dungeon crawler with excellent atmosphere.

[MX7]

Yeah, portables do seem to be the perfect home for crawlers in the same way that an arcade cabinet in an actual arcade is the perfect home for shooters. Why I'm so chuffed Soul Hackers has a 3DS port coming out in a couple of days and SMTIV is bypassing home consoles entirely. Shooting games should be played in front of other people, your every mistake scrutinised before you sit out and analyse someone else's run. Crawlers are obsessive, methodical and entirely solitary.

[Skykid]

Exploring dungeons, building up your characters, fighting interesting monsters, and collecting rare loot. What else were you expecting?

That's a very good question!

Answer is, I'm not entirely sure. Any old-school genre that has a dedicated following is something that piques my interest, so I thought I'd give it a shot.

I've always preferred ARPG's to TB ones, but then I've played plenty of both. The thing is with TB RPG's, like Square's 16bit stuff for instance, is that the dungeon aspects are always proportionately balanced with other enjoyable elements of play, such as plot progression, town discovery, chatting to new characters, shopping and the odd set-piece. The interim dungeons just make you feel accomplished for getting that much stronger. From what I gather of EO is that dungeon crawlers do away with pretty much everything except repetitive dungeon battles and levelling up?

Based on its core structure, I enjoyed the hour or so I spent on the opening map, even if my party was weak and regularly took a beating, but I'm not so sure I'll be able to do the same thing for an endless number of hours without losing motivation.

I was sort of thinking there's a mystical point where the entire concept takes on new meaning and becomes insufferably addictive: but if it's just a case of beating the game because it's hardcore, I'd rather do that with more action based titles.

Shin Megami: DS seems to have a lot more in the way of plotting, character interaction etc, so perhaps that's a better option?

[Squire Grooktook]

I can't speak for the first game (once again), but EO3 does a nice job of breaking up the action over time. The plot gradually becomes less minimalist, you arrive at new towns and dungeons, you get new abilities like subclasses, atmosphere gets thicker and thicker...

Also anything with Shin Megami Tensei in the name is probably good for everything. Good plot. Good art. Good music. Good gameplay.

[CMoon]

And Skykid discovers dungeon crawling...

Clearly repeating the posters before me, but EO1 is the most like the original Wizardry. I just recently went back to EO1 and played through the first stratum just to get that original vibe (great music!), but the game is not enormously varied for its massive length. EO3 fixes this with more classes, subclassing, weapon customization, party synergies, and even branching paths in the plot. It even had a sailing component to the game which unfortunately didn't act as an overworld. If you are at all intrigued by EO1, I strongly recommend giving the third one a shot. If you have a 3DS, EO4 also looks pretty good with a lot going on.

SMT games? Yeah, since you have a DS you should go pick up Strange journey immediately. Very much plot and character driven, so if that's what you feel like you're missing, give it a try.

I've always preferred ARPG's to TB ones, but then I've played plenty of both. The thing is with TB RPG's, like Square's 16bit stuff for instance, is that the dungeon aspects are always proportionately balanced with other enjoyable elements of play, such as plot progression, town discovery, chatting to new characters, shopping and the odd set-piece. The interim dungeons just make you feel accomplished for getting that much stronger. From what I gather of EO is that dungeon crawlers do away with pretty much everything except repetitive dungeon battles and levelling up?

I think part of the reason these other RPGs need to mix it up so much is because the combat is ultimately much less complex than in modern dungeon crawlers. What may not be apparent is that you are building characters much the same way you make a build in Dark Souls. In some ways, combat takes on an almost SRPG-like nature, though still keeping the exploration component.

Maybe you need to give EO a little more time?

[Mischief Maker]

I've played EO3 and recently started EO2 and I've honestly got to say EO3 is the only one I can recommend.

Unlike, say, The Dark Spire or SMT: Strange Journey, the dungeons in EO aren't very maze-like. The challenge of EO dungeons comes from dodging FOEs. They're monsters represented by pulsing balls of light that are many many levels higher than the other monsters on the floor (and should be many levels higher than your team) so you need to avoid getting into fights with them. Each FOE type moves about the dungeon with a different AI pattern and avoiding them is kind of like Deadly Rooms of Death lite. Of course, unlike DROD, in EO you're constantly under threat that a random encounter can happen while you're being chased by a FOE, in the FOE's patrol route, etc, and every round of combat the FOE moves one step on the map. If the FOE intersects with your square during that random encounter, they'll join in the fight. That's why the game provides you with a color-coded random encounter chance indicator.

Careful you don't over-level your team or you'll break this key part of EO gameplay by being able to just beat up the FOEs. Mapping out every square of a dungeon alone should produce enough XP to keep a well-balanced team at the sweet spot of difficulty. Also, don't worry about investing points into the cheap skills early on coming back to bite you in the ass when facing the final boss, EO has many options for reshuffling your skill points once earlygame skills become obsolete (the best is retiring).

The worst part of the EO series, IMO, is the farming. If you want to make enough money to keep your equipment up to scratch, either your team has to waste several precious points on farming skills (Take, Chop, Mine) or create a seperate team devoted entirely to farming and avoiding fights to make your money for you.

EO3 is the only one I can recommend because in addition to the FOE dodging, it's the closest any DS game I've played has come to recreating the joy of crafting custom teams in Final Fantasy Tactics using the job system (way more than Final Fantasy Tactics Advance). It has way more colorful and inventive sprite work than EO2. Even the farming is at its least painful because all the key skills for that have been consolidated in the "Farmer" class, and you can give your farming team a skill that lets them collect a fraction of your man team's earned XP while sitting on their butts back home. The main downside of EO3 is the Japanese pro-whaling propaganda lurking behind the seafaring minigame.

In EO2, on the other hand, most of the classes are one-trick ponies and defeating FOEs doesn't even give you XP. If you aren't that concerned with customizing your team, you're better off playing The Dark Spire.

I haven't played EO4, but word on the street is they've dumbed things down.

[CMoon]

I haven't played EO4, but word on the street is they've dumbed things down.

Not sure on this yet. Some people are saying 'streamlined'. I'm not far in so I can't say for sure, but I like the addition of an overworld, and a lot of what I liked in EO3 is still here. Missing the chiptunes mostly. Word is that the game is too easy, but right now I'm at level 8 and still getting pushed around pretty roughly by indigenous wildlife. Feeling constantly under powered and short a team member. Pretty much what I expect from an EO game.

[Necronopticous]

EO3 is the only one I can recommend because in addition to the FOE dodging, it's the closest any DS game I've played has come to recreating the joy of crafting custom teams in Final Fantasy Tactics using the job system (way more than Final Fantasy Tactics Advance). It has way more colorful and inventive sprite work than EO2. Even the farming is at its least painful because all the key skills for that have been consolidated in the "Farmer" class, and you can give your farming team a skill that lets them collect a fraction of your man team's earned XP while sitting on their butts back home. The main downside of EO3 is the Japanese pro-whaling propaganda lurking behind the seafaring minigame.

Etrian Odyssey 3 is the best because Princess.

[Ganelon]

Answer is, I'm not entirely sure. Any old-school genre that has a dedicated following is something that piques my interest, so I thought I'd give it a shot.

Ah, I see. If I understand the situation correctly, there's quite a gap between the hype you've heard and reality you're experiencing so you're double-checking to make sure you're not missing some key mechanic now or down the line. Experimenting at least once is always a respectable approach, as is making sure that you've covered everything. I can't recall how many reviews I've read that listed a negative point out of ignorance (FFIV's inaccurate "grinding required" complaint being one of the most common).

Dungeon crawlers derive from the earliest CRPGs that attempted to copy D&D where players enter a dungeon and create the story themselves, hence why it's so common that you create the characters. EO is par for the course plot-wise with other modern releases in this genre but it's still not a fraction of that of a traditional JRPG. I would second SMT Strange Journey; that gives you more the best of both worlds. However, you won't find a balance between story and dungeon romping in dungeon crawlers.

Skyrim and the other Elder Scrolls games are sort of the modern evolution of this genre, following Dungeon Master's shift to real-time mechanics and focusing on world size and quest-based character development and story without the handrails of a forced story. The huge modern focus on plot is why dungeon crawlers fare so poorly now in sales and in crowd funding. It's also responsible for modern games like FFXIII that have sacrificed game mechanics to provide a more seamless plot. Only a subset of modern RPG fans have stuck to dungeon crawler roots.

The point of turn-based battles is to give players full time to devise a tactical plan. This approach results in less stress with nothing pushing you to make quick decisions. You're supposed to have battle plans for the random encounter groups you encounter based on past observations (e.g. kill Glass Cannon A first, use Ice on Fire Enemy B) as well as all-out options for bosses.

The goal of random battles is to surprise players. It's always exciting to meet a rare enemy with the potential of an even rarer drop. That's a trepidation and excitement you won't get if enemies are visible on-screen.

If you continue, you'll be repeating much of what you did 30-100 more times but with new monsters to fight, better weapons, more spells to use, and different locales. There's no magical element that will pop out and make the games more fun to you. I had your "this is boring and monotonous" mentality for many years (back then, I would probably play any random sidescroller than Wizardry) before the mechanics of going on a real role-playing dungeon adventure connected with me. This shift just occurred randomly; I wasn't even playing dungeon crawlers at the time. And now they satiate my desire for exploring dungeons with familiar turn-based, random battle mechanics. For me, it's like a type of food that you can eat every once in awhile in moderation but not everyday.

Give EO a few more hours and see if you feel any different. If not, try SMT SJ to see if whether that meets the cut. A warning though: very few dungeon crawlers have the amount of story SMT games do so there's not much else to turn to if you do happen to enjoy it. Even SJ itself falters towards the end. And if it doesn't work out, well, there are plenty of ARPGs left to play.

[Squire Grooktook]

The goal of random battles is to surprise players. It's always exciting to meet a rare enemy with the potential of an even rarer drop. That's a trepidation and excitement you won't get if enemies are visible on-screen.

That, and to simulate the feel of actually preparing for an expedition. You know, like where you in a town and your trying to figure out how long the journey is going to be and buy the appropriate number of items. You don't know how many enemies or what kind of enemies you might encounter, so you have to be strategic and weigh the possibilities of what you might have to face.

[BryanM]

Myself, I think it's vestigial and silly to have to spam the Run Command to keep from wasting (more) time.

I always use the "Turn off random encounters" skill in these games these days..

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Give EO a few more hours and see if you feel any different. If not, try SMT SJ to see if whether that meets the cut. A warning though: very few dungeon crawlers have the amount of story SMT games do so there's not much else to turn to if you do happen to enjoy it.

Yeah, unfortunately the biggest draw of most dungeon crawlers is stuff like the exploration itself and the customization in character builds, hunting down those incredibly rare but crazy powerful weapons, and generally trying to survive as you delve deeper into the dungeon with limited resources to back you up.

SMT is really more of an exception to the rule, but since a lot of people play games more for story than just the gameplay, it's why it has such a broader appeal than other games in the genre. Unusually Labyrinth of Touhou seems to have fairly high popularity despite playing like more of an old-school dungeon crawler which aren't known for being well-liked (minimal excuse plot, heavy focus on custom character development via what stats you put EXP into), albeit the emphasis on the combat mechanics is probably what does it (that and everyone loves Touhou + CAVE cameo bosses, lol). It's a very, very good game, just in a very niche RPG genre.

[cj iwakura]

It's a great game, best in the series. I hope you make it to the fourth stratum, I look forward to your thoughts on it.

It has a minimalist story, but a very good one.

[Skykid]

I'm just about teetering on understanding the concept here. Very slow burning basically. Now I'm able to take on quests, I need to basically fulfil as many of those as possible to stop being poor so I can buy better weapons/armour? I'm assuming taking on a new stratum is never something you can just wade into, since I had half my guys wiped out by a fucking rabbit in the first battle after taking the steps down. I've regrouped everything in the town and decided to get some quests done and grind a bit to try and be strong enough to kill the little carrot eating sod.

[cj iwakura]

Give EO a few more hours and see if you feel any different. If not, try SMT SJ to see if whether that meets the cut. A warning though: very few dungeon crawlers have the amount of story SMT games do so there's not much else to turn to if you do happen to enjoy it.

Yeah, unfortunately the biggest draw of most dungeon crawlers is stuff like the exploration itself and the customization in character builds, hunting down those incredibly rare but crazy powerful weapons, and generally trying to survive as you delve deeper into the dungeon with limited resources to back you up.
SMT is really more of an exception to the rule, but since a lot of people play games more for story than just the gameplay, it's why it has such a broader appeal than other games in the genre. Unusually Labyrinth of Touhou seems to have fairly high popularity despite playing like more of an old-school dungeon crawler which aren't known for being well-liked (minimal excuse plot, heavy focus on custom character development via what stats you put EXP into), albeit the emphasis on the combat mechanics is probably what does it (that and everyone loves Touhou + CAVE cameo bosses, lol). It's a very, very good game, just in a very niche RPG genre.

I was impossibly psyched for that game until I learned it wasn't first person. (Funny how that's a detractor for some and a selling point for me)

[CMoon]

I'm just about teetering on understanding the concept here. Very slow burning basically. Now I'm able to take on quests, I need to basically fulfil as many of those as possible to stop being poor so I can buy better weapons/armour? I'm assuming taking on a new stratum is never something you can just wade into, since I had half my guys wiped out by a fucking rabbit in the first battle after taking the steps down. I've regrouped everything in the town and decided to get some quests done and grind a bit to try and be strong enough to kill the little carrot eating sod.

Although I'd like to argue that in the act of exploration you are grinding enough to get money and level properly, when I recently went back and played EO1, I did a bit of grinding. Obviously you are selling everything you find at the shop. Are you doing harvesting runs to the gathering spots? You can make a party of 5 survivalists, putting all their points into harvesting skills and get a fair amount of money early.

There's more I should say here but don't want to spoil the experience. EO1 more than the others feels like there is one optimal party, and basically there is one optimal set of skills. Not to say you need to power game, but rather that the wrong build/skill set may feel like you are just being punished for no reason. Don't want you getting frustrated and giving up.

Edit: As far as when to move on--I always wanted to be strong enough to beat the floor level FOE before going to far beyond that floor. Some FOEs aren't worth it, but it is a good measure of readiness if you can take on the FOE without having half your party wiped out.

[Mischief Maker]

For all the ridiculous hours I've sunk into this game, if they made an EO game for the PC I wouldn't touch it. I play this series because it's on the DS and I can use it to distract me through long plane flights. If many hours need to be murdered on your commutes, grab yourself a copy of EO3 and go to town. If you're just playing at home all you're doing is hastening your journey to the grave.

[CMoon]

If you're just playing at home all you're doing is hastening your journey to the grave.

Jesus, MM

[Skykid]

Well I've definitely taken the wrong approach then. I've got two survivalists and a guy with a bow, one magic user who's shit, since I've upgraded 4 skill points to fire usage and he can't even use a single spell yet, and one little dancer who ups bravery and shelter etc. I don't even know what harvesting is. I found spots in the 1st stratum where you can chop wood, but didn't have the skills. So I got one of my survivalists an axe and went back, and still can't do anything about it.

Pretty abstruse game tbh, it really expects you to just figure it all out on your own. I can imagine having to restart from scratch several times before you get a feel for it. I took on the 1st Foe today after getting some new weaponry and got instantly annihilated.

[Necronopticous]

I took on the 1st Foe today after getting some new weaponry and got instantly annihilated.

Welcome to the club.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I can imagine having to restart from scratch several times before you get a feel for it. I took on the 1st Foe today after getting some new weaponry and got instantly annihilated.

You realize in the Wizardry series that permadeaths are a common, normal game mechanic, right? Any time a character is killed, revival has a risk of failure, making that character disappear forever (unless you use Mahaman in the early games to get the unique full-party heal+revive effect that never fails, but casting Haman/Mahaman drains levels and requires luck to get the effect you want!).

And in the case of a full party wipe, you have to send a second team into the dungeon to recover the dead bodies (some of which will have been eaten by the monsters and hence permakilled before you get a chance to even revive, as well as loss of tons of equipment).

Brutally punishing gameplay is pretty much the standard for the genre even since its earliest roots. I know I've lost tons (20+) high level characters to dangerous enemies; first time I got to Greater Demons (massive magic resistance) it was a bit of a shock to see the high level nuke spells fail to even scratch them only to get torn apart - took a while to learn to use spells that ignore resistance (AC reduction spells like MaMorlis then just carve 'em up with fighters, the wish granting spells Haman/Mahaman). EO really isn't any different - you will get eaten alive by some stuff, so you simply have to learn to accept it and plan accordingly.