Practice modes and Save States - What do you think?

[Paradigm]

In fact I'd say once you can 1cc a game most of your practice should be focused on full runs.

Actually it's the other way around, and that's if getting a 1CC/1-ALL before scoring is even a concern for you.

[KAI]

Using save states it's like __________ (fill the blank with the first thing that come to your mind)

[NTSC-J]

Using save states it's like what on earth is KAI talking about?

[CoolgyFurlough]

This is my personal experience with using savestates as noob.

Right now I'm playing Dodonpachi, and I'm not very good. My eventual goal is to at least get a 1st loop clear. I, without fail, can usually get up to the third boss, and then I die. Or I bomb the boss and am able to get to level 4 and then use all of my bombs and die by the midboss. I came into Dodonpachi as a completely new player, and as such, I have over 300 credits logged in the game without making any headway. I got absolutely sick and tired of playing those first three stages over and over again just to die in the exact same spot every single time, and as such, I got bored of the game and started playing other games. About the same thing happened in all the other games I played, because I would get bored of playing the same stages over and over without making any progress, so I kept switching around because of boredom. I absolutely love all of the shmups that I play, but can't stand the fact that I can never stay interested in any for very long. So I decided to start using savestates. Now I'm actually improving on the parts of Dodonpachi that I'm actually bad at (because I'm playing parts that actually challenge me), and as such I'm not getting bored with the game any more. This isn't to say that I wasn't improving my skill earlier when I was hopping games, but it was at such an agonizingly slow pace that it started to annoy me. Savestates are what keeps me improving my skill, and what keeps me enjoying the games that I play. At some point in the future when I am good enough to actually 1cc things and am playing for score, I'll probably use savestates a lot less.

My point here is that everybody enjoys different styles of play, and as such, plays differently. This is my preferred style of play. Is my savestate practice ruining your runs? No, because shmups are a primarily singleplayer genre of games. I also really don't think they are cheating. Why don't we all just practice how we want to practice and not care how other people are practicing? One of the reasons I really like this genre is because there are so many styles of shmup, and so many ways to enjoy these styles.

[SuperSoaker360]

Also, I don't like grinding the same stage over and over, it takes any fun out of the game and turns it into work.

Pretty much the same for me. Unless I'm really trying to learn the game (and that only happens when I love the game a lot), I don't really use save-states or practice.
The only other exception to that would have to be when I want to skip straight into the more fun parts of a game.

Seriously, play however the hell you want.

[chempop]

So I decided to start using savestates. Now I'm actually improving on the parts of Dodonpachi that I'm actually bad at

Savestates:


Fullruns:

[CptRansom]

Seriously, play however the hell you want.

/thread, please.

[CoolgyFurlough]

...

What does that even mean?

[Uzumakijl]

You definitely would get much better at fighters if you practiced properly and stopped arbitrarily handicapping yourself, too. I mean no offense, but I can easily tell your level at that game from your comment (feint canceling is a must for mid/high level Garou save for a couple of characters, especially for characters like Terry who practically base their offense on it). Get on GGPO and look for your compatriot Magnus Raz, he's a good teacher and is looking for more Mexican players.

Lol, I'm far from bad, i play with Magnus all the time and i've seen him get better over the years but he's nowhere near the level of GM_Gary or spelunker+, i'd consider them to be the top players of Garou in GGPO and i've beaten both of them years ago.

/end of my offtopic discussions.

On Topic: To make clear my personal opinion, I don't think stage selects are bad, but you're missing a part of the experience by savestating and you can learn the same things you do with it with just regular play, but to each their own, it doesn't takes anything away from me to have people use savestates if that's what helps them to enjoy such a niche genre, last thing we need is more elitism regarding cookie cutter play on what's hardcore and what's not.

As long as people enjoy the games that's fine by me.

[pestro87]

Practice modes and Save States - What do you think?

Your score and understanding what works best for you is all that matters (whether it be practice modes, save states or credit feeding/full runs).

Save states and practice modes help me to efficiently learn tricky sections but they prevent me from sticking to the game for a longer period of time. For example, save states may allow me to accomplish goal X within 10 hours but I get burnt out after 40 hours and move on to another game. Full runs on the other hand, may allow me to accomplish goal X within 50 hours but I've prevented getting burnt out so I might move on to another game after 1000 hours instead. The end result was that I spent more time doing full runs but I got a better score. Please keep in mind that this is how it works for me so it may not work the same for you.

EDIT: Having that said, save states and practice modes are essential for me when I'm practicing TLBs and second loops

[Some-Mist]

No, I don't use save states or practice modes in any game. I get too bored with using either and the intensity just isn't there - which is the main reason I play the games in the first place. It's a lot more fun for me to clear a game gradually by playing score attack mode over and over than it is to credit feed or use practice modes. I still haven't cleared a game considered top-tier difficult though (i.e. DOJ, Ketsui, Battle Garegga)

No-one is clearing games like that without grinding stages hundreds of times in practice mode and as such they are a necessary inclusion in ports, and are unfortunately the only way to economically get enough time on latter stages.

lol...this statement just has loser written all over it.
I've never once used a practice mode in futari, and I've cleared ver. 1.5 original, BL original, and BL maniac.

Before my maniac clear, I only made it to stage 5 twice in probably over 75 attempts. the third time I made it to stage 5 I lost one life on stage 4, but gained one through scoring and one about midway through stage 5. Needless to say I 1CCed it with 0 lives 0 bombs.

my strategy to 1CC is to credit feed the game once to get an idea of what the stages look like, and then to continually play score attack until I clear the full game. I also alternate between trying to get as far as I can get no matter what (75% of the time) and resetting the entire game once I lose a life in stage 1 or 2 (25% of the time).

[Erppo]

I'm not judging other people's accomplishments

This part is starting to look funnier and funnier in the middle of all the passive-aggressive crap.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

This is my personal experience with using savestates as noob.

Right now I'm playing Dodonpachi, and I'm not very good. My eventual goal is to at least get a 1st loop clear. I, without fail, can usually get up to the third boss, and then I die. Or I bomb the boss and am able to get to level 4 and then use all of my bombs and die by the midboss. I came into Dodonpachi as a completely new player, and as such, I have over 300 credits logged in the game without making any headway. I got absolutely sick and tired of playing those first three stages over and over again just to die in the exact same spot every single time, and as such, I got bored of the game and started playing other games. About the same thing happened in all the other games I played, because I would get bored of playing the same stages over and over without making any progress, so I kept switching around because of boredom. I absolutely love all of the shmups that I play, but can't stand the fact that I can never stay interested in any for very long. So I decided to start using savestates. Now I'm actually improving on the parts of Dodonpachi that I'm actually bad at (because I'm playing parts that actually challenge me), and as such I'm not getting bored with the game any more. This isn't to say that I wasn't improving my skill earlier when I was hopping games, but it was at such an agonizingly slow pace that it started to annoy me. Savestates are what keeps me improving my skill, and what keeps me enjoying the games that I play. At some point in the future when I am good enough to actually 1cc things and am playing for score, I'll probably use savestates a lot less.

My point here is that everybody enjoys different styles of play, and as such, plays differently. This is my preferred style of play. Is my savestate practice ruining your runs? No, because shmups are a primarily singleplayer genre of games. I also really don't think they are cheating. Why don't we all just practice how we want to practice and not care how other people are practicing? One of the reasons I really like this genre is because there are so many styles of shmup, and so many ways to enjoy these styles.

I don't remember writing this but it must have been me. No seriously though, i'm in exactly the same position as you.

[chempop]

I'm not judging the accomplishments, I'm questioning the methods involved.

I get it. For many, it is the best way to improve the quickest way possible, the best way to perfect the hardest sections of a game, the best way to succeed to reaching top spots on a scoreboard, etc.

That's all fine and dandy, but for some quackery reason if doesn't seem like the honest way to go about it.

/////////WARNING!! WARNING!!!///////
/////TERRIBLE ANALOGY INCOMING////

It's like someone who bought a house with drug money, sure the result it the same as someone who has an honest job who also buys a house, but the means to the end involves a rather different set of ideals.

[trap15]

It's like someone who bought a house with drug money, sure the result it the same as someone who has an honest job who also buys a house, but the means to the end involves a rather different set of ideals.

Seriously, what the fuck.

Who fucking cares. Just play the god damn games. You shouldn't care how someone else plays; if you like to use save states because it makes you improve faster, yay, cool, go ahead. If you like to only do full runs because it feels more pure, yay, cool, go ahead.

Stop being such judgmental asshats and play the fuckin' games.

[Hagane]

Lol, I'm far from bad, i play with Magnus all the time and i've seen him get better over the years but he's nowhere near the level of GM_Gary or spelunker+, i'd consider them to be the top players of Garou in GGPO and i've beaten both of them years ago.

Haha, sure man. A Tizoc player who never learned feint canceling beating the all time best Garou player (Spelunker+/Wata). Maybe you mean you won a round or a game over 100 matches? You need to be a bit humbler.

That's all fine and dandy, but for some quackery reason if doesn't seem like the honest way to go about it.

Yeah, practice is such a crime

[KAI]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oDTNEEu3Rw

[DrTrouserPlank]

I think there are some false analogies being drawn here. People are likening stage practice to some form of cheating. It's not a massive step to go from that to saying that playing credits and learning the patterns that way is unfair.

Where's the limit drawn on what is a "genuine" clear? How long are you allowed to play the game before your memory and knowledge of the patterns (however that has been obtained) give you an "unfair" advantage over the game?

There's a difference between practice and cheating. The analogy I'd use is that practice is like the 100m runner who trains and rehearses his race, trains in the gym etc. Cheating is the 100m runner who uses banned substances to beat the competition. In the end I guess it's about what you are comfortable with based on your own moral compass. In order to climb to the top of the heap you need to utilise every tool at your disposal; if that is focused practice in the form of stage select then I see that as fair. Where people draw the line between fair and cheating is up to them. If everyone else is "cheating" then you might as well also... it's only leveling the playing field right?

I'm of the opinion that these games don't become trivialised by stage select practice anyway. Doing the run is an entirely different animal compared to no-missing a stage a few times in practice.

[hail good sir]

gates

[Uzumakijl]

Haha, sure man. A Tizoc player who never learned feint canceling beating the all time best Garou player (Spelunker+/Wata). Maybe you mean you won a round or a game over 100 matches? You need to be a bit humbler.

I like your laughs because they are meaningless to me. All that matters to me is that Spelunker+ himself told me i had a really good Tizoc, i don't need anything else .

Last reply from me about this shit on this thread, it is offtopic enough as it is.

[Hagane]

I never would have imagined I would live to see a good, reasonable DTP post. Maybe there's some hope!

My big issue with save states is, what's to stop someone from restarting on say 2-4 of some game until they get the 2-all and then showing that to everyone.

Replays.

[hail good sir]

in

[Kollision]

Doing the run is an entirely different animal compared to no-missing a stage a few times in practice.

QFT

[Squire Grooktook]

I'll just post and say that I think the best time to save state imo is when you really need to "figure out" a particular attack.

Like if it's the kind of thing that's not just reflexes, but needs some memorization to be realistically possible, then yeah there's no real point in 1cc'ing up to the final boss doing that shit over and over just to experiment on ways to dodge it.

But really, you should save state whenever you think it'll help you, even if a practice clear and a full run clear are very different of course.

[Icarus]

Rather than spending ages writing something that I've covered a billion times in many past threads, I'll just leave this thing I wrote here.

[dunpeal2064]

Rather than spending ages writing something that I've covered a billion times in many past threads, I'll just leave this thing I wrote here.

I had never read that before, and I learned a few great tips just from browsing it. I'll definitely be giving it a full read later on.

Thanks Icarus.

[Nasirosuchus]

My big issue with save states is, what's to stop someone from restarting on say 2-4 of some game until they get the 2-all and then showing that to everyone. I realize this is a dumb argument because if they can beat 2-5 + TLB of (insert hard cave game) then they can obviously do the rest, but it still irks me a little bit.

That's an entirely different thing.

What we're talking about is using save states to practice difficult parts of a game. When going for the clear, you would obviously start from the beginning of the game and play all the way through until the end.

Using a save state to start from a later point in the game isn't a genuine 1CC because you obviously didn't play all of the way through. The same goes for loading a save state every time you die and then claiming that you achieved a no miss.

With Metal Slug 5, I used save states to grind Missions 4 and 5 until I could clear them with my eyes closed. When I went for the 1CC, I started from the very beginning of Mission 1 and played all the way through on one credit until the last boss was dead. No save states were used while doing the clear.

[ACSeraph]

Rather than spending ages writing something that I've covered a billion times in many past threads, I'll just leave this thing I wrote here.

Thank you for the awesome guide Icarus. It says that it is chapter 5. Where can I read the rest of it?

[Icarus]

Thank you for the awesome guide Icarus. It says that it is chapter 5. Where can I read the rest of it?

The rest of it has not been written yet, but a framework was made in preparation for it.

[Obscura]

How complete is the system knowledge chapter? It's got a version number, but no version exists on the internet as far as I can tell.