Practice modes and Save States - What do you think?

[ACSeraph]

Well, I'm kinda new to serious shmup play but I gotta say as a hardcore fighting game fan, this practice mode is cheap talk sounds like scrub talk to me.

Playing through the first two stages hundreds of times when just to get another chance at the 5 seconds of gameplay that are giving you trouble is the most idiotically inefficient waste of time imaginable. What exactly are you proving by playing through the same easy beginning stages hundreds of times over before you practice? You are still practicing just like the rest of us, you are just doing it at a slow inefficient pace. In the end when we do 1cc runs we are all being tested the same way, it's just that some are better prepared for it than others.

If you did bad on an exam because you thought studying outside of class was cheating your professor would think you were a dumbass.

Doing it that way because it's more fun that way for you is one thing, but calling it cheap, or cheating is nothing but scrub talk. You are making just an excuse for your own shortcomings at a game. Don't sabotage yourself with artificial scrub rules. Play to win.

Sorry for the rant, fighting gamers don't like scrubs...

[trap15]

^ Quite well said.

The 'Playing to win' article is one of the best things I've ever read, really

[endoKarb]

Playing through the first two stages hundreds of times when just to get another chance at the 5 seconds of gameplay that are giving you trouble is the most idiotically inefficient waste of time imaginable. What exactly are you proving by playing through the same easy beginning stages hundreds of times over before you practice? You are still practicing just like the rest of us, you are just doing it at a slow inefficient pace. In the end when we do 1cc runs we are all being tested the same way, it's just that some are better prepared for it than others.

You don't really prove anything by playing without save state but personally I believe that the guy practicing without save states and the guy practicing with them are practicing fundamentally different skills.

Memorization doesn't just happen by repeated exposure, it something that needs to be actively triggered. I've had the same phone number for years, but I still manage to forget it now and then, because I never made that effort to engrave it into my mind. And I've never made that effort because I know I can always go and read it again with minimal effort if I forget it.

When you don't have that luxury of jumping at any precise point if the game you want, you are force to make a much more significant memorization effort and learn to visualize each level with great detail in your mind. A lot of superplayer in their interview say that they often come up with new patterns and solution while not playing the game. They have the whole game installed into their brains basically.

High scores aren't worth any less if they are achieved with save states. Western high scores done with save states though, are MUCH lower than those of the Japanese. Even though this is to be expected to an extent since the western community is much smaller, it is a fact that cannot be ignored.

Ultimately my point is that while save states can be an extremly useful practice tool, they are not the miraculous skill grower that they are made out to be. It's significatly underestimated just how much better the top Japanese players are compared to anyone else, and they learned their craft without much level manipulation available. I just can't help but believe that these top players figured out something by playing so many hours with such strong limitation.

That's just my point though. I could ramble about this stuff all day. I'm always looking for insight into how people get good at the stuff they do.
Breaking a challenge into small pieces is definitely something that comes up often, so I could be completely off. I don't really mind being wrong lol.

[chempop]

For me there is almost always improvement to be made on early stages of a game, I don't see it as a waste of time. What would be a real waste would be save stating the final end boss until it was cake, and then burning through the game without savoring it and etching out my route step by step.

That's what I love about these games, the progression. Bypass the progression and it makes it a chore, not a journey like it should be.

[trap15]

For what it's worth, sikraiken gets so good at games so quickly because of efficient save-state practice. I'm sure if he put as much time into each game as a WR holder, he could be getting WR-tier scores.

[DrInfy]

Also, I don't like grinding the same stage over and over, it takes any fun out of the game and turns it into work.

This is pretty much how I feel about save states and practice modes. I still use them sometimes, but prefer to use as little as possible. I also don't like memorizing exact precise routes and trying to perform them like a robot. Even if shmups have leaderboards, they're still single player games and you should play them the way you're getting the most fun out of them. I feel that practice modes and save states should be a quick fix for when you're getting frustrated for not progressing, not the end means which you are using all the time. Then again if you're having fun playing practice modes or willing to sacrifice fun for quicker progression, then by all means go for it. It's your time after all.

[ACSeraph]

^

I actually agree with you that they are different things and balance is important. I practice both ways. Usually I begin with a warm up run, followed by stage practice, followed by multiple 1cc attempts. But I promise you those individual key point practice sessions make a huge difference in how much you are getting out of your 1cc attempts. The 1cc attempts add a new layer of pressure and force you to work through that and execute everything you have learned all in one go. The two methods each have their strengths, so obviously the best plan is to use both in your practice routine.

In terms of fighting games, practice mode is similar to casual matches, while 1cc attempts are more like tournament matches. No matter how badass you may be during casuals, if you have no experience with the all or noting atmosphere of tournament play you will have no success performing under pressure. On the other hand, you can go to all the tournaments you want, but if you haven't practiced casually you arent going to understand what you should be doing in the first place. The point? neither is superior, you need both. Shmups are no different.

If you want to keep up with the rest of a game's high level community, you need to use every legal advantage available to you.

[chempop]

this practice mode is cheap talk sounds like scrub talk to me.

because people who kick ass without using mame clearly lack skills

[KAI]

Memorization doesn't just happen by repeated exposure, it something that needs to be actively triggered. I've had the same phone number for years, but I still manage to forget it now and then, because I never made that effort to engrave it into my mind. And I've never made that effort because I know I can always go and read it again with minimal effort if I forget it.

Where's the analogy police?
Just kidding, I think you're absolutely right.

Well, I'm kinda new to serious shmup play but I gotta say as a hardcore fighting game fan, this practice mode is cheap talk sounds like scrub talk to me.

Fightans are a completely different thing, you have to practice a lot to beat someone who also has been practicing a lot. Shumps don't get harder, you just have to learn them once and that's all.

I dare to say, IF YOU USE SAVESTATES, YOU DON'T LOVE SHOOTANS!

[ACSeraph]

this practice mode is cheap talk sounds like scrub talk to me.

because people who kick ass without using mame clearly lack skills

That isn't what I'm saying at all, I'm only saying that the end result is all that matters, and the method you use to get there doesn't matter. Calling someone who uses practice modes cheap is utterly ridiculous. For the record my PC is ghetto and can't run mame so I can't use savestates to practice. But I'm not about to disrespect the results of someone who did.

Memorization doesn't just happen by repeated exposure, it something that needs to be actively triggered. I've had the same phone number for years, but I still manage to forget it now and then, because I never made that effort to engrave it into my mind. And I've never made that effort because I know I can always go and read it again with minimal effort if I forget it.

Where's the analogy police?
Just kidding, I think you're absolutely right.

Well, I'm kinda new to serious shmup play but I gotta say as a hardcore fighting game fan, this practice mode is cheap talk sounds like scrub talk to me.

Fightans are a completely different thing. You have to practice a lot to beat someone who also has been practicing a lot. Shumps don't get harder, you just have to learn them once and that's all.


I dare to say, IF YOU USE SAVESTATES, YOU DON'T LOVE SHOOTANS!

I think it comes down to personal goals. The main difference between Shmups and fighters is that there are potentially more goals in a shmup than there are in fighters. For many people myself included, the goal boils down to defeating the game. 1CC-ing it and then improving upon my score. I will use the most efficient means possible to get there. I love it in my own way. I don't mind if people have different values about what makes a great shmup experience, but you shouldn't be disrespecting people with terms like cheap and cheating. Those are the kinds of words you use when you are competing with someone, not terms you for the love of the game. In competition, only the results matter, so your score is in no way superior to the score of someone who used "cheap" practice mode. Cheap and unfair are scrub words.

- Tough love brought to you by your brothers at the SRK community

[Hagane]

I don't get people who think savestate practice is a "grind". How is it more of a chore than repeating what you already mastered countless times? Mastering and trying new stuff in the challenging parts is much more entertaining. And if you get bored of practicing a certain part, practice another one! Or do full runs to put everything together. If you are getting bored it's your fault, really.

[iconoclast]

Shumps don't get harder, you just have to learn them once and that's all.

There are a ton of different ways to learn a shump, all with varying degrees of difficulty. You can make just about any game as hard as you want it to be by playing for score, unless you've got the WR and there's literally no further room for improvement.

[CoolgyFurlough]

[Redacted because my phrasing made me sound like an ass]

[Aliquantic]

There are a ton of different ways to learn a shump, all with varying degrees of difficulty. You can make just about any game as hard as you want it to be by playing for score, unless you've got the WR and there's literally no further room for improvement.

Or do silly challenges of the no miss/no bomb/no shooting/no vertical/use bad ships variety

[DrInfy]

I don't get people who think savestate practice is a "grind". How is it more of a chore than repeating what you already mastered countless times? Mastering and trying new stuff in the challenging parts is much more entertaining. And if you get bored of practicing a certain part, practice another one! Or do full runs to put everything together. If you are getting bored it's your fault, really.

I don't think I have mastered any stage in any game that has anything to do with scoring and I probably never will. If someone can always get the perfect score 1000 out of 1000 attempts, then the scoring system in that game probably isn't very interesting. I'm having fun when I can see the tiny improvements in my overall score and see the proof that I'm doing better than last time. It's the same for me in every game and every sport. I like competing in PvP games and I like playing football (or soccer), but I don't think practicing is generally very fun. Shooting the ball to goal thousands of times is a "grind" just the same as practicing a stage or boss in a shmup is. Most people probably would practice their shooting because they want to improve, not because they think it's particularly fun. It's possible that some people find practicing stuff fun, but I've never really done that. I have fun when I apply my practicing into beating something or someone and can see my improvements.

[Hagane]

Most people practice because it's fun (I don't think there's many people who play games to get bored). Even you, doing full runs, are practicing. Unless you play aimlessly flailing around the screen, you also have a plan that you refine through continued play. You just do it in a less time efficient way.

I think ACSeraph was spot on with his fighting game comparison. As soon as people stop arbitrarily handicapping themselves, they will start playing better and having more fun with these games.

[DrInfy]

Most people practice because it's fun (I don't think there's many people who play games to get bored). Even you, doing full runs, are practicing. Unless you play aimlessly flailing around the screen, you also have a plan that you refine through continued play. You just do it in a less time efficient way.

I think ACSeraph was spot on with his fighting game comparison. As soon as people stop arbitrarily handicapping themselves, they will start playing better and having more fun with these games.

Uhm, no. You are not practicing when play a match of football or go to a fighting game tournament. You are competing and learning while competing. If you start a score attack (Cave ports in xbox360) in a shmup, you are indeed competing instead of practicing. The great part about shmups is that you can compete as much as you want and at any time you like. It doesn't matter if you are the last human in existence, you could still try to beat that Dodonpachi world record. Practicing allows you to focus on your weak spots and you should most definitely do it when you find one if you want to continue improving. I personally have troubles in Deathsmiles last stage with death mode and if I want to break that barrier, I would need to practice that a ton. And I will, as soon as I get the time and motivation to do it, but I still find it boring.

[chempop]

I think all I've learned from this thread is that shmups are just a boring waste of time
...and how to get better at football (soccer)

In conclusion:
Tool assisted practicing = God
Tool assisted runs = Satan

[Hagane]

DrInfy:

OK, I'll reword it: you are doing exactly the same thing we do, except you start from stage 1 every single time.

In conclusion:
Tool assisted practicing = God
Tool assisted runs = Satan

You do realize that there's a difference between executing something and scripting a macro to play the game for you, right?

[Uzumakijl]

Shmup analogies: The thread.

I had to procrastinate sleep just to answer to this post, no offense, but you couldn't be more wrong

Playing through the first two stages hundreds of times when just to get another chance at the 5 seconds of gameplay that are giving you trouble is the most idiotically inefficient waste of time imaginable. What exactly are you proving by playing through the same easy beginning stages hundreds of times over before you practice? You are still practicing just like the rest of us, you are just doing it at a slow inefficient pace. In the end when we do 1cc runs we are all being tested the same way, it's just that some are better prepared for it than others.

This is pretty much saying that using training mode and getting muscle memory of the same long combo is gonna win you every single game because you are more prepared than someone else. I've played Garou MOW for around 10 years and to this date i still can't do feint cancels (Because i've never actually "needed" them), yet when i was on my best shape (Got rusty after i stopped playing for 2 or 3 years) i was able to compete against some of the best users on GGPO. i didn't learn shit by practicing the commands on training mode, i learned 95% of what i know by just playing against people over and over.

And i can guarantee you, following your analogy, i've seen people pull the most bullshit combos in Garou consistently, yet they can barely jump over a "hadouken" spam and die to it stupidly.

Also, shmups aren't only about the 1CC, if you're playing for score you always find better strategies and routes by replaying the first stage i doubt anyone has god skills to be able to get the best and optimal score for stage 1 and 2 the first times they play, you indeed are missing an integral part of the experience by skipping the "easy" parts in the long run.

[Aquas]

Memorization doesn't just happen by repeated exposure, it something that needs to be actively triggered. I've had the same phone number for years, but I still manage to forget it now and then, because I never made that effort to engrave it into my mind. And I've never made that effort because I know I can always go and read it again with minimal effort if I forget it.

When you don't have that luxury of jumping at any precise point if the game you want, you are force to make a much more significant memorization effort and learn to visualize each level with great detail in your mind. A lot of superplayer in their interview say that they often come up with new patterns and solution while not playing the game. They have the whole game installed into their brains basically.

So true. I was save state practicing Dangun Feveron the other day. La di da, boss this, annoying section that, thinking everything was going swimmingly. Then when I went to do a full run, I got wiped out in a completely new way than was expected from my practice. It made me smile because it reminds me that I was foolish to think it would go just as swell. I'm just starting to get into the game and this is how it should go, in my quest to "download" the game.

Surely I wasn't doing braindead "exposure practice" with those save states and I was actually learning. But, running the test of a full run put me back in line. I will admit to playing loosely in real runs on PCB (now that I've had the opportunity to) maybe due to being spoiled by practice sessions. I have to remind myself what are my intentions are with each play-through. Playing full runs should teach you what sections are most critical (when you're not using some specific form of practice, otherwise.) Some people get caught up in scoring too much and die needlessly... it's a mess. Concentration, goals!

And well, it remains that people play and wish to learn these games in different ways. It is interesting to understand just how people learn best. For me, this hobby is more than just having fun, now it's about understanding myself and how I learn best. At the high level in fighting games, I've heard Daigo claim he plays (street fighter) to understand himself as well. I want to understand, one day, what it means to get a WR.

[ACSeraph]

Shmup analogies: The thread.

I had to procrastinate sleep just to answer to this post, no offense, but you couldn't be more wrong

Playing through the first two stages hundreds of times when just to get another chance at the 5 seconds of gameplay that are giving you trouble is the most idiotically inefficient waste of time imaginable. What exactly are you proving by playing through the same easy beginning stages hundreds of times over before you practice? You are still practicing just like the rest of us, you are just doing it at a slow inefficient pace. In the end when we do 1cc runs we are all being tested the same way, it's just that some are better prepared for it than others.

This is pretty much saying that being on training mode and getting muscle memory of the same long combo is gonna win you every single game because you are more prepared than someone else. I've played Garou MOW for around 10 years and to this date i still can't do feint cancels, yet when i was on my best shape (Got rusty after i stopped playing for 2 or 3 years) i was able to compete against some of the best users on GGPO. i didn't learn shit by practicing the commands on training mode, i learned 95% of what i know by just playing against people over and over.

And i can guarantee you, following your analogy, i've seen people pull the most bullshit combos in Garou consistently, yet they can barely jump over a "hadouken" spam and die to it stupidly.

Also, shmups aren't only about the 1CC, if you're playing for score you always find better strategies and routes by replaying the first stage i doubt anyone has god skills to be able to get the best and optimal score for stage 1 and 2 the first times they play, you indeed are missing an integral part of the experience by skipping the "easy" parts in the long run.

Again that is not what I'm saying at all, I'm only saying that it is a good efficient method of practice. There's more involved than just practicing specific points, and I mention that in my other posts. Basically I'm saying, that if you want to get good, and especially if you want to get good quickly you should practice specific points (savestates, combos), and then add what you learn from that into your practice of your overall game (full runs, casual matches) in order to be the best you can be when it matters (score attack, tournament play). I'm not saying you can't be successful without that kind of practice, or that practice will necessarily make you high level. However, it certainly helps, and having a stupid mindset of practice modes being cheap is only hindering your ability to improve. Again, you can and should play in the way that is the most enjoyable for you, but don't trash the methods of others, and don't lie to yourself and say that practice is meaningless because sometimes you just simply don't have the talent to get better.

[Uzumakijl]

Again, you can and should play in the way that is the most enjoyable for you, but don't trash the methods of others, and don't lie to yourself and say that practice is meaningless because sometimes you just simply don't have the talent to get better.

Thing is, there's plenty of people who achieve better things without the help of savestates using other kind of practice (Full runs and learning from mistakes). I'd say it's the complete opposite, people who need extra help to get better actually go and savestate everything they can.

[Aliquantic]

OT, but combos aren't usually the main thing you need to practice in fighting games either, especially if your combos aren't very technical or spacing/character dependent. I'd hate not to have access to a record feature or savestates in a fighting game to make it faster to learn how to deal with being put into certain situations, or work on strictly timed defensive mechanics (parries, just guarding, instant blocking...), or timing canned setups and mix-ups... hit confirms too, or good old high/low blocking and I'm probably forgetting some things.

A lot of fighting games don't have very good training modes, but it's amazing when you find a solid one, and as a relative newcomer when most of our local players have been around for years, it's pretty much mandatory to catch up and not be hopelessly behind.

[ACSeraph]

@Uzumakijl

Obviously. You aren't going to use save states if you can already beat the game's ass from day one. In fact I'd say once you can 1cc a game most of your practice should be focused on full runs. But savestates are a significantly more efficient route of getting to that point, and most people realistically aren't going to be good enough to easily 1cc something without practice. The question is whether it is somehow amoral for them to take a shorter more efficient route to get there. It absolutely isn't.

Also for some people using savestate straight out the gate BALANCED with other forms of practice including full runs is a very quick and efficient way to improve, and it is enjoyable for them. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and performing the same results without the use of practice mode doesn't mean $#!+. Only the results matter.

[Hagane]

Thing is, there's plenty of people who achieve better things without the help of savestates using other kind of practice (Full runs and learning from mistakes). I'd say it's the complete opposite, people who need extra help to get better actually go and savestate everything they can.

People learn from their mistakes when they practice. You get no extra help from savestate and level select, you just waste less time.

Also, comparing them to practice modes in fighting games is a bad analogy. While you can learn some things from practice modes in fighters (you would definitely have gotten much better at Garou if you learned how to feint cancel, unless you use someone like Gato or Grant), most of the real practice (matchups, spacing, comboing on a moving thinking target, positioning, mixups, zoning, etc) comes from casual play against a human opponent. Practicing a shooting game is more like learning hard matchups against players better than yourself in a fighter than doing combos against a brainless dummy, since you are playing the real thing while practicing.

[Uzumakijl]

Play to win.

Last thing i'll say regarding the fighting game analogy

http://youtu.be/YnEWSO6NrQo?t=1m29s

Chun on the right, doing anything to win (filling up meter with MP to just spam Down+MK poke into super).

Clearly only results matter.

(you would definitely have gotten much better at Garou if you learned how to feint cancel, unless you use someone like Gato or Grant)

I play with Tizoc mostly, and i only feint to get invulnerabilty from Right feint or an easy 720º from down feint. Also Grant can't feint at all so it doesn't matters but Gato benefits quite a lot from feint cancelling right feint, it always catches people off guard. Thing is i never had the necessity to learn how to punch and feint cancel with Terry/Hokuto/Jenet/Jae/Dong/Kevin because it was unnecesary it's a thing you don't really need to win and it's easily countered by Evasion attacks, Learning feint cancelling wouldn't have helped me get better as much as playing the game regularly would.

I leave this here for you, It's up to you to decide whether this applies or not to shmups

Most of the real practice (matchups, spacing, comboing on a moving thinking target, positioning, mixups, zoning, etc) comes from casual play

[Hagane]

Clearly only results matter.

Of course. Character choice/play style/practice methods are irrelevant.

Garou stuff

You definitely would get much better at fighters if you practiced properly and stopped arbitrarily handicapping yourself, too. I mean no offense, but I can easily tell your level at that game from your comment (feint canceling is a must for mid/high level Garou save for a couple of characters, especially for characters like Terry who practically base their offense on it). Get on GGPO and look for your compatriot Magnus Raz, he's a good teacher and is looking for more Mexican players.

Back to the topic, anyone playing an STG trying to get better at it is practicing, no matter if you use stage selects and savestates or only do full runs. The difficulty is the same, the mentality is the same, the game is the same and you are the same. The difference is how efficiently you spend your time.

[ACSeraph]

Play to win.

Last thing i'll say regarding the fighting game analogy

http://youtu.be/YnEWSO6NrQo?t=1m29s

Chun on the right, doing anything to win (filling up meter with MP to just spam Down+MK poke into super).

Clearly only results matter.

(you would definitely have gotten much better at Garou if you learned how to feint cancel, unless you use someone like Gato or Grant)

I play with Tizoc mostly, and i only feint to get invulnerabilty from Right feint or an easy 720º from down feint. Also Grant can't feint at all so it doesn't matters but Gato benefits quite a lot from feint cancelling right feint, it always catches people off guard. Thing is i never had the necessity to learn how to punch and feint cancel with Terry/Hokuto/Jenet/Jae/Dong/Kevin because it was unnecesary it's a thing you don't really need to win and it's easily countered by Evasion attacks, Learning feint cancelling wouldn't have helped me get better as much as playing the game regularly would.

I leave this here for you, It's up to you to decide whether this applies or not to shmups

Most of the real practice (matchups, spacing, comboing on a moving thinking target, positioning, mixups, zoning, etc) comes from casual play

I'm not really sure what your point is with Evo moment 37, do you think Daigo was playing to win any less than Wong was? Not to mention Wong's strategy of "let's try to get a chip damage finish in 3S against Daigo" wasn't exactly smart. Also do you think Daigo didn't practice for countless hours to be able to parry that super? No one can perform at the level of either of them by "just playing regularly". As for MotW, even if you were successful with it on GGPO without sitting down and practicing advanced techniques, that doesn't mean you couldn't have gone so much further if you had put in that extra effort. It isn't like practicing your combos is somehow preventing you from ALSO practicing matches. Balance is important, in shmups and fighters alike.

[MX7]

Save states are cool. I've used them a fair bit to practice particularly hard bits of games. I find playing the game from level one through to the end, continuing once if necessary works best though. That's me, everyone has different learning styles. Basic stuff.

One thing I would take exception to is the idea that practising the same bit over and over is somehow the key to mastering a musical instrument. Sure, practising scales and arpeggios, and particularly hard bits of songs, very useful. But, and I've been told this againa and again and again, by far the most useful thing you can do is play through an entire movement/song/whatever without stopping, no matter what happens. I've learnt classical and non classical instruments, played in metal bands and orchestras, and it's the same for both of them. You can practice that boss/guitar solo to get more comfortable, but the real test is handling and recovering what comes before and after, and pacing yourself, and staying cool. Best run I've ever seen is CHI on Outzone. Lost two lives in ST1, ended up on the fourth loop. Fantastic stuff.