Practice modes and Save States - What do you think?

[Uzumakijl]

Going in with the music analogy, It's like either learning a "hard" guitar solo in a song and never doing all the other difficult chords which last much longer and are 85% of the song.

Where is the joy in savestating Hibachi if you can't even get there on the first place .

[Nasirosuchus]

Going in with the music analogy, It's like either learning a "hard" guitar solo in a song and never doing all the other difficult chords which last much longer and are 85% of the song.

Where is the joy in savestating Hibachi if you can't even get there on the first place .

You use the save states to practice the difficult parts leading up to the end so that you can indeed get there.

[chempop]

lol

Pretty sure we can agree to disagree on this one. So why do I think practice modes and save states are questionable. I'm not judging other people's accomplishments, I just know for sure what makes the experience better for me, and worse. Getting to practice individual patterns broken down step-by-step is the fastest way to learn them, undeniably so. If I were to play using save-states I would never have the satisfaction that I get from crushing a final boss... knowing that it was going to take 100% of my ability to have a chance, knowing that I could panic and it would be back to stage 1, knowing that it's the part of the game I've played the least, which is all the most reason why it will be an accomplishment to make it through alive.

It's okay for some people to consider it cheating, for others to stand by it and call it 100% legit, for others to have no other means of progressing in their favorite game, and for others to not be sure one way or the other.

[jasoncslaughter]

I don't really care for save states personally, but I don't have a problem with other people using them. To be fair, though, I only play on pcbs, as I don't have one of those mame's everyone keeps talking about and my 360 functions solely as a dust collector.

I do, however, have a DVD recorder hooked up to my cabs, and I watch other people's replays from time to time when I get stuck (although this is usually a last resort), so I can't really fault anyone for using save states and/or practice modes. Do what you gotta do!

[endoKarb]

Saves states break down the game too much for me. It almost feels like preparing a TAS run.

I generally manage just fine by continuing/credit feeding and trying stuff out like that. Paying attention to every mistake also helps a lot, as opposed to playing over and over in auto-pilot mode.

Should I figure out a way to make using save states enjoyable to me, I'd use them; I just don't really like the whole idea of practicing. Games are meant to be played not practiced, I think, and trying stuff out in a real run is much more exciting to me as a player.

When I play I shmup I don't just wanna get good at executing the "correct" path through the game. I want to get good at executing every path, I want to be able to reproduce in game any possible solution that I manage to visualize in my mind.

It's kinda the difference between a classical musician who gets totally lost without a piece of sheet music and a jazz musician who is able to come up with intricate solos on the spot if he feels like.

Music analogies are all the rage lately.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

The point of using them is so you know what to do at every point in the game. If you're having success when practicing the stage separately but flub things up during a run, it's an issue of your nerves getting to you or maybe a lack of concentration which is a skill in itself. Usually experience will help you get over those problems.

Well yes can't really argue with that. What I mean to say is sometimes things happen during a run that you might not have anticipated or practiced for. For example, my save states are saved with a fully-powered shot which assumes I haven't just died on the previous boss. Lets say I do die on that boss and have to start the next level with nothing but the standard shot. Now my tactics might have to change from what i've practiced with. Although I suppose I could make another save state to practice that eventuality (or just not die at that boss like a tool).

[Erppo]

I'm not judging other people's accomplishments

If you are calling them cheaters, you are doing exactly that.

Also I don't really understand how do you get from "I like playing without practice most" to "practice modes and save states are questionable". For the practice modes, how could something the developers purposefully put in their games be questionable?

What about the Psikyo games that have stage practice options built in the PCBs?

[emphatic]

Save states are awesome, they can make anyone a superplayer without the need of any skill. Playing a PCB the way it was manufactured to be played is stupid and time consuming.

[Eaglet]

Save states are great if you want to improve quickly and find what could be the most optimal way to tackle any given situation.
I don't use them though. Has less to do with choice and more to do with only playing PCBs on cabs.
I think save state practice would also be a great way for me to tire of a game super quick. That and the adrenaline rush you get when going into something you don't already know by heart is something i'm too addicted to to get rid of. It's why i started playing STGs in the first place after all.

[Zaarock]

What about the Psikyo games that have stage practice options built in the PCBs?

Or just games without rank or insignificant rank for the section being practiced that can be practiced just the same by simply credit feeding after the initial credit.. It's just a longer way of practicing said section than a savestate or stage select, right? Continues are certainly "intended" for PCB play but I get the impression that some people are even against practice by credit feeding(if they only enjoy playing single credits themselves).

I used to never want to continue even if it would be good for practice which in retrospect seems pretty stupid and stubborn (not that it matters, it was only for my own play)

[CoolgyFurlough]

Save states are awesome, they can make anyone a superplayer without the need of any skill. Playing a PCB the way it was manufactured to be played is stupid and time consuming.

The way this is phrased, it could be sarcastic, seething, or totally innocent. I honestly can't suss out the intention. It's just so ambiguous.

[Vamos]

Save states and practice are a great useful tool for anyone serious about progress in these games.I cant imagine a single top scorer nowadays not using these things where available.... they are tools,use them.Unless of course you think its fun to 1cc all the way to the last stage only to get obliterated because you didnt know what was coming.

[ratikal]

I really like save states and practice modes. They help you experiment certain sections with ease, and it allows you to restart that area almost instantly.

The only thing I don't like about them is that I find myself playing them WAY more than the actual game all the way through. You can't really get a high score through practice mode, and it can be annoying to fuck it up in a run and have to play through maybe 10 minutes just to try again.

That's why Ginga Force is awesome. The game is just stage select!

[Eaglet]

obliterated because you didnt know what was coming.

To me that's part of the fun with these games.

[Jaimers]

ITT: people can't tell the difference between practicing and cheating.

If you're going to call every form of practicing cheating, you might as well call studying for an exam cheating too.

[KAI]

Again.

What about game without them? Don't tell they just not worth your time.

Patience is a virtue, don't forget that.

[Giest118]

Again.

What about game without them? Don't tell they just not worth your time.

Patience is a virtue, don't forget that.

Aw shit, I forgot that patience was a virtue and I spent hours practicing stages 4 and 5 of MushiFutari. Damn it. I am no longer virtuous.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Again.

What about game without them? Don't tell they just not worth your time.

Patience is a virtue, don't forget that.

Deathsmiles is a good example of a game with a practice mode that is lacking. The inability to be able to practice the second section of the last level and the final boss from a selectable menu means that I can't even consider clearing it. Frankly, even on difficulty 3, the entirety of the game's difficulty is that stage and that boss.

It's not often that you can say a practice mode is an inefficient way of practicing; albeit more efficient than runs of course.

[dannnnn]

IIRC on Deathsmiles' practice mode, the ballroom section is a checkpoint, so you'll continue from there whenever you restart from then onwards. You can play up until you're about to destroy the boss and then restart for more convenient practice.

[Uzumakijl]

The inability to be able to practice the second section of the last level and the final boss from a selectable menu means that I can't even consider clearing it. Frankly, even on difficulty 3, the entirety of the game's difficulty is that stage and that boss.

I like how you pretend this kind of games are so badly designed that no other stage teaches you shit about how to play the game, playing the whole game is supposed to develop your overall skill so you can tackle on the very last part of the game adapting the strategies and things you learned during all the other stages.

[DrTrouserPlank]

The inability to be able to practice the second section of the last level and the final boss from a selectable menu means that I can't even consider clearing it. Frankly, even on difficulty 3, the entirety of the game's difficulty is that stage and that boss.

I like how you pretend this kind of games are so badly designed that no other stage teaches you shit about how to play the game, playing the whole game is supposed to develop your overall skill so you can tackle on the very last part of the game adapting the strategies and things you learned during all the other stages.

I agree that you will develop dodging skills and the ability to predict projectile paths by playing earlier stages, but I'm strongly of the opinion that stage-specific practice and knowledge is mandatory for clearing them without loss of lives. I think that stage 3 of Futari is no more similar to stage 4 of Futari than stage 3 of Espgaluda 2, or progear or anything else. Each stage is so specific and requires individual knowledge that I'm not sure previous stages in the game really aid you in the game you are playing anymore than other shooters would.

... but that's because I'm adamant that almost photographic memorisation of stages is a necessity... well, it certainly would be for me at least.

[Bananamatic]

[DrTrouserPlank]

Trendymosaic.jpg

What's that all about?

[Aliquantic]

I like how you pretend this kind of games are so badly designed that no other stage teaches you shit about how to play the game, playing the whole game is supposed to develop your overall skill so you can tackle on the very last part of the game adapting the strategies and things you learned during all the other stages.

This is actually true when it comes to Deathsmiles, specifically. Only the EX stage and the final stage (more the former than the latter) pose any difficulty whatsoever, and level 999 on any stage in MBL. This wouldn't apply to most games, but it actually does here, especially given how a large part of the difficulty in Deathsmiles comes from knowing what's happening next (and suicide bullets, which you will not get on the early stages). Even wrong clocks can be right sometimes

... but that's because I'm adamant that almost photographic memorisation of stages is a necessity... well, it certainly would be for me at least.

A friend of mine has no ability to memorize level layouts even after quite a few tries... I wonder if you're the same, though he doesn't exaggerate anywhere near as much. It should not take you more than a few goes through a level to have a pretty good memory of everything, and even when strict routes are helpful, you should be getting a very good memory of the level very quickly. My friend simply doesn't seem to develop that sort of memory very well, and is surprised by patterns he's seen a couple dozen times already (and immediately forgets everything after a day or two).

I feel like that DrTrouserPlank doesn't even make top 3 for silly posts on this thread

[DrTrouserPlank]

I like how you pretend this kind of games are so badly designed that no other stage teaches you shit about how to play the game, playing the whole game is supposed to develop your overall skill so you can tackle on the very last part of the game adapting the strategies and things you learned during all the other stages.

This is actually true when it comes to Deathsmiles, specifically. Only the EX stage and the final stage (more the former than the latter) pose any difficulty whatsoever, and level 999 on any stage in MBL. This wouldn't apply to most games, but it actually does here, especially given how a large part of the difficulty in Deathsmiles comes from knowing what's happening next (and suicide bullets, which you will not get on the early stages). Even wrong clocks can be right sometimes

... but that's because I'm adamant that almost photographic memorisation of stages is a necessity... well, it certainly would be for me at least.

A friend of mine has no ability to memorize level layouts even after quite a few tries... I wonder if you're the same, though he doesn't exaggerate anywhere near as much. It should not take you more than a few goes through a level to have a pretty good memory of everything, and even when strict routes are helpful, you should be getting a very good memory of the level very quickly. My friend simply doesn't seem to develop that sort of memory very well, and is surprised by patterns he's seen a couple dozen times already (and immediately forgets everything after a day or two).

I feel like that DrTrouserPlank doesn't even make top 3 for silly posts on this thread

I'm not trying to make silly posts. I'm trying not to get responses like in other threads tonight which are stupid .jpgs, but actually have a discussion on-topic

I don't think I learn stages quickly.. definitely not. Some things I do learn quickly but I don't think this is one of them. However, I do learn them and come up with some way or another of getting through them. Problem is that I nudge random shit a lot... and by random I mean shit that I've already dodged as such that is still 1/2 up the screen and I've accounted for but in the process of pre-dodging other crap that is 3/4 of the way up the screen I move into a zone I shouldn't and that will be occupied by the earlier stuff.

[Hagane]

Save states are awesome, they can make anyone a superplayer without the need of any skill.

Stupidest post I've read in a good while. Of course, making a savestate gets rid of the need of making a strategy and having the execution to perform it.

How can some people not realize that all you are doing with a savestate (or stage practice) is going directly to what gives you trouble, skipping the parts you can already perform? It speeds your improvement because you don't waste your time needlessly waiting to get to the hard parts, not because it gives you superhuman powers. You are still you when practicing.

[Nasirosuchus]

Save states are awesome, they can make anyone a superplayer without the need of any skill.

Stupidest post I've read in a good while. Of course, making a savestate gets rid of the need of making a strategy and having the execution to perform it.

How can some people not realize that all you are doing with a savestate (or stage practice) is going directly to what gives you trouble, skipping the parts you can already perform? It speeds your improvement because you don't waste your time needlessly waiting to get to the hard parts, not because it gives you superhuman powers. You are still you when practicing.

Exactly.

Save states don't do anything to artificially enhance a player's skills. They are just another form of practice.

[Ruldra]

Savestates makes you learn the game a LOT faster. During competitions, such as STGT, they're invaluable. MAME players have a severe advantage over PCB players because of this.

Keep in mind however, that abusing savestates too much will quickly take away all the fun of the game and turn it into work. I learned this the hard way and I got burned out so much I couldn't enjoy shmups for a long time. Nowadays I refuse to use them.

[blackoak]

That and the adrenaline rush you get when going into something you don't already know by heart is something i'm too addicted to to get rid of. It's why i started playing STGs in the first place after all.

I completely know what you mean... is this the defining trait of a Raizing player? hehe

I use savestates if I'm really trying to improve at a game, or if I feel like the opening stages are improperly balanced and boring. Tatsujin Ou is an example... fun game, but boring as hell to play the long first stage over and over. I sold my PCB in favor of mame here, but maybe I'll own it again someday when I'm good enough to clear the later stages consistently.

I would *love* to see trap15 or another enterprising programmer work on revising more games with stage selects etc., though. That would be the best of both worlds for me.

[trap15]

Noooo, don't make me do it

I probably should do it so I can stop sucking and get better at some of these games I just got