PS4 / Xbox One console war

[Friendly]

We'll all buy it anyway.

Who is "we all"? I won't buy a console and games that I don't really own. I have a feeling it's not just me; you seem to underestimate the intelligence of some people here. Btw, I also never paid for Xbox Live "Gold", because Microsoft's withholding features is a scam.
How can you presume to speak for the entire forum? Some might consider that a bit arrogant.

if it ends up with the shmups

"If". We'll see about that.

Anyway, nice way of steering the discussion away from the giant elephant in the the room by trying to make this about me. Please don't.
This thread is about Xbox 3. And right now there are several worrisome signs pointing to it becoming a rather anti-consumer device.
If enough people complain about it before the fact, maybe Microsoft will reconsider.

By the way, the direction Microsoft seems to be taking isn't surprising in the least if you paid a little attention in the past.
They always considered their Xbox to be a "trojan horse" to get into peoples' living-rooms, and they spared no expense to get it there. Leasing their Xbox products to you and turning them into surveillance/data mining devices is the next logical step.

The disconnect between what consumers want and what Microsoft offers has been growing in the past decade (Zune, Windows phones, Microsoft Surface, Windows 8 ). There's a reason why the adoption rate of Windows 8 is so slow (current market share: ~3%): People don't want the idiotic Metro interface on their dektop computers. If Micorsoft wouldn't force it on buyers of new PCs/notebooks, that number would be much lower.

Microsoft has always abused its OS- and Office monopoly (just look at the price of MS Office and how they keep changing around their propietary, closed document formats forcing customers to upgrade every few years), and they have a long-standing history of eroding consumer rights (selling you a "license" instead of the actual product, only allowing you to use it on a single computer you own, intrusive Windows/Office "activation" process that all but requires a urine sample).

I am very happy that Linux is slowly growing into a real alternative to the stranglehold of Windows (Ubuntu seems to be becoming "everybody's linux"). Valve released a Steam client for Linux two months ago, and downloads of Linux versions on Steam have already reached 16% (Apple: 5%). That's a huge deal.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

You know Friendly, none of this is going to matter if it ends up with the shmups. We'll all buy it anyway.

I dunno. Even if it started becoming the shmup friendly platform I suspect bad design issues like this would be enough of a dealbreaker that people would simply stick to PC doujins/whatever's available on a less crappy console, at least until the Xbox 3 can be hacked/modded in such a way that it's actually usable without any heavy handed control limitations by Microsoft.

It might be kinda nice to see the PS4 return to its predecessor's glory (namely the PS2), but I'm not fond of wireless controllers, touchscreen gimmicks (not easily repaired, forces you to move your hand well away from the buttons?), etc. What happened to a good gaming console that you buy for the games? Even Nintendo's sort of fallen away from its glory days of simple, solid, fun gaming (NES, SNES). Nobody wants to play a game with a crappy 'remote' that sucks ass to hold (tilting it sideways for Super Mario makes it painfully clear how uncomfortable it is).

tl;dr new consoles suck

Anyway, nice way of steering the discussion away from the giant elephant in the the room by trying to make this about me. Please don't.

??

all he did was respond with "we'll probably all buy it for the shmups anyways"

and then you posted a huge quote of your previous post, which ironically makes it seem more like you're trying to make it about you (??)

[Friendly]

Read betwen the lines. He presumes to speak for the entire forum, makes it sound like it is me versus everyone else, ending by saying that I shouldn't post about it here because I'm the only one who cares. And then he even brings up PS4, which is not the topic at hand.

[Skykid]

Anyway, nice way of steering the discussion away from the giant elephant in the the room by trying to make this about me. Please don't.

??

all he did was respond with "we'll probably all buy it for the shmups anyways"

and then you posted a huge quote of your previous post, which ironically makes it seem more like you're trying to make it about you (??)

Ha ha. Dunno. I get the feeling this entire thread is about Friendly and the meme he just wrote.

Well I can't speak on behalf of all members here, that would be arrogant, I agree, but I'd imagine that should it be the console hosting the next decade of shmups (should we be so lucky) that most people will manage to put aside reservations about the system setup. It was an assumption, not intended to be putting words in folks mouths.

I mean, I don't like what I'm hearing, but I still want to play the games. You're making it sound as though the machine will come into your home, stab your mother and fuck your sister.

I also can't fathom why you keep purporting to own a 360, that's a weird one.
There's no point dropping odd bombs here and there for impartiality. I mean, I'm not ribbing you, I just think it's unusual: you hate MS, you hate XBLA and you detest region locking. There's no evidence on the forum of anything except Sony purchases in the 'stuff I bought' thread and a complete absence in high scores and all in-depth discussion re:360 shmups. I don't think you own the console or any of the games.

I'd be pretty surprised, but feel free to surprise me.

[BulletMagnet]

And then he even brings up PS4, which is not the topic at hand.

Methinks what he meant was, in contrast to the first part of his statement, "...but if the shmups end up on the PS4 like they did on the PS2, then the Durango will cease to matter for a good chunk of this forum."

Let me make this simple, either way: back on topic.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

Microsoft Studios' creative director has some choice words about always-online

Is this guy aware that Twitter is a public forum? How do these people get these jobs?

[Friendly]

After dozens of publications picked up on Adam Orth's "deal with it" twitter message regarding always online DRM, Larry Hryb (Director of Programming for Xbox Live), better known by his gamer tag Major Nelson issued the following statement, which is akin to "no comment":

We apologize for the inappropriate comments made by an employee on Twitter yesterday. This person is not a spokesperson for Microsoft, and his personal views do not reflect the customer centric approach we take to our products or how we would communicate directly with our loyal consumers. We are very sorry if this offended anyone, however we have not made any announcements about our product roadmap, and have no further comment on this matter.

http://majornelson.com/2013/04/05/offic ... yesterday/
EDIT: Oh, sorry. I missed that BareknuckleRoo had alredy posted about MS' statement.

I love this part, "customer centric approach". Reminded me of this:

To be perfectly honest I wouldn't have given him a 360 for free either, since he has already proven that he's more than willing to pay again.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

You know Friendly, none of this is going to matter if it ends up with the shmups. We'll all buy it anyway. There might be another forum into the PS4 though.

The sad truth, that said I expect MS paying in $ for DLC will have left a bad taste with Japanese STG devs.

[TransatlanticFoe]

This one said it pretty well.

The thing is, I don't think the majority of gamers think that bottom part is that big a deal. You only need to look at the "buy - play - trade" cycle to see that most people just dump their game for the next one when they're done with it. Ownership is, like privacy, pretty much done for because people have fully embraced the broken culture behind it.

Where this bellend's argument falls down is "lol electricity sometimes goes out too". Yeah, I need that for my console but I don't need internet for my single player game. Dumb shitebag.

Online authentication, as per PC games, is where the consoles are headed in the immediate future, because companies are shitting themselves too much over the used game market. Always online is too soon for Microsoft, its competitiors and a significant number of customers (not only poor/no broadband, but download caps too). Microsoft has been damaged too badly by Windows 8 to try forcing always online on their next console and expecting a massive success. Once online authentication makes its way to consoles, that's the end of them for me - why not have a PC? That way you can control the parts and crucially aren't at the mercy of shoddy costcutting workmanship.

As for "we'll buy it if that's where the shmups go" - what shmups? Seems to be as much being released for the Dreamcast as any other console.

[system11]

As for "we'll buy it if that's where the shmups go" - what shmups? Seems to be as much being released for the Dreamcast as any other console.

Are you kidding me? What about all the Cave ports just for starters?

I think what pushed them to the 360 was the ease of development due to it being slightly closer to a PC in architecture. The PS4 is a PC in a box, you might see them return to Sony. If Sony again don't put region locks on games by default, that could be an epic win.

[dave4shmups]

Regardless of what shmups end up on the XBOX 720, if Microsoft requires you to be online while you're playing them, that's a problem. If there's ever a problem with your internet connection, there goes your chain.

I really hope that Microsoft changes direction on this. Sony came out and said that they wont require gamers to always be online with the PS4, so hopefully that puts some pressure on MS.

[TransatlanticFoe]

As for "we'll buy it if that's where the shmups go" - what shmups? Seems to be as much being released for the Dreamcast as any other console.

Are you kidding me? What about all the Cave ports just for starters?

I think what pushed them to the 360 was the ease of development due to it being slightly closer to a PC in architecture. The PS4 is a PC in a box, you might see them return to Sony. If Sony again don't put region locks on games by default, that could be an epic win.

I meant looking forward to the next gen. CAVE's future is less than certain. What shmups are in the pipeline that aren't independent releases? It'd be a shame if the next gen were limited to the odd couple of quid games via PSN (or whatever).

If we're talking online authentication, you can bet region protection will come in with it - you'll only be able to authenticate games for your region.

[Friendly]

It should also be noted that it was a combination special circumstances (none of which are recurring) that led to 360 getting the shmups; easier programmability was only one of them.
Xbox 360 being available one year ealier than PS3 played an important role. Microsoft spent lots of money getting Japanese studios on board early during this generation (mostly for jRPGs), paying for temporary exclusivity or even development which helped Xbox 360 become a device for niche titles in Japan.
However, Microsoft's investment in Japanese exclusives didn't pay off at all; Japanese consumers continued to ignore the Xbox brand. There is absolutely no reason for Microsoft to once again invest money in securing obscure Japanese titles that regularily sell only 20 - 30,000 copies. Making their games available only on the system with the smallest market share probably wasn't beneficial to smaller studios in Japan.
Sony's PS4 will be easy to program for. It won't launch a year late. Sony's restrictive game approval process no longer exists.

[Ed Oscuro]

Yeah, that made no sense at all.

Which was exactly the point...when you see "words of wisdom" and "Digital Press" in the same sentence, SARCASM.

I am very disappoint.

The second quote was especially silly because somebody wanted DLC and XBLA but not BC...which will be impossible without reprogramming things for the 720.

[Friendly]

Yeah, that made no sense at all.

Which was exactly the point...when you see "words of wisdom" and "Digital Press" in the same sentence, SARCASM.

I am very disappoint.

The second quote was especially silly because somebody wanted DLC and XBLA but not BC...which will be impossible without reprogramming things for the 720.

Hahahaha. My bad

[Cuilan]

I honestly don't see shmup developers like Cave moving on to next gen (at least not for a long while), unless some 1st party provides an upfront incentive ($$$) for doing so.

They already have their development process built and fine-tuned around the 360, the fanbase is already there, and current gen consoles provide way more power than they need.

In my opinion, the future of shmups on home consoles will be largely determined by the SDOJ port's performance (and to a slightly lesser degree, the Ketsui PS3 port's performance). Even then, at best/worst, we'd only see the genre shift to the PS3 and not the PS4 (PS3 already has tens of millions of users, while the PS4 will be starting from zero and has no BC). The 720/whatever is looking even more unlikely if all the rumors are true.

[Skykid]

Culian's got a point there, it's probably not the best idea for small time shmup devs to throw themselves at next gen - it took Cave how many years before they announced the first port?

I'm happy to go to wherever the games are and wherever pickings are sweetest. The always online idea is utterly retarded: how you can even consider forcing people to have an active net connection to play videogames they just bought is completely preposterous. If MS actually go ahead with it, they may as well take a chainsaw to their ankles.

[dave4shmups]

Oh boy. More evidence that the XBOX 720 will have to be online to play games: http://www.gamespot.com/news/subscripti ... el-6406544

Doesn't look like MS will change course, although they haven't had their XBOX 720 "event" yet.

[CloudyMusic]

From an anonymous internet commenter: while the 360 could be considered the PS2 of this generation, it's looking like the 720 might be the PS3 of the next one.

Can't say I can argue with it from what we've heard so far.

[Friendly]

From an anonymous internet commenter: while the 360 could be considered the PS2 of this generation, it's looking like the 720 might be the PS3 of the next one.

Can't say I can argue with it from what we've heard so far.

But 360 wasn't the PS2 of any generation. What some (uneducated) Americans tend to ignore is that the world consists of more than just the USA. 360 is only ahead of PS3 in America. Globally, PS3 has been outselling 360 for years (basically on a weekly basis ever since PS3 slim was introduced). Total sales of each console are nearly even now, which means that pretty much all that was gained by 360's 1-year headstart has been lost by now.

[KAI]

While the Jap 360 could be considered the Jap PS2 of this generation, it's looking like the 720 might be the PS3 of the next one.

Fixed.

We are talking about game catalogues, right?

[CloudyMusic]

I'm mostly talking about how (Western only, if you prefer) multiplatform console development this generation has largely been centered on 360/PC as the primary development environment, and then ported to the PS3. The PS3's architecture is generally seen as too nonstandard to justify being the target platform for a multiplatform game. Meanwhile, Sony suffered due to their complex system architecture, largely brought about as a result of their own (admitted!) hubris after the PS2 was as huge of a success as it was. Parallels could be drawn between that and Microsoft's recent blunders about always-online connectivity, dashboard ads, and so on, while Sony again begins to cater to developers with an accessible platform.

There are plenty of exceptions, sure, especially if you care more about the Japanese market than the Western one.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm interested to see what this 360 "stingray" console will be like. I guess even Microsoft realizes they have to compete with themselves for a while.

Paul Thurott's article about "outrage real and imagined" with the next XBox:
http://winsupersite.com/xbox/xbox-vnext ... ays-online

[louisg]

I'm interested to see what this 360 "stingray" console will be like. I guess even Microsoft realizes they have to compete with themselves for a while.

Paul Thurott's article about "outrage real and imagined" with the next XBox:
http://winsupersite.com/xbox/xbox-vnext ... ays-online

Good article! It also sums up my feelings in general about internet outrage syndrome.

Yeah, the 360 super-duper-slim or whatever seems pretty intriguing to me! There's a good handful of current gen games I'd like to play more of.

[Ed Oscuro]

Personally I thought Paul missed the boat on the source of the comments, and Orthy's avatar is oh-so-face-punchable.

[Friendly]

When asked about why the importance of the PS4 reveal's first game being decidely cutesy game Knack, Yoshida said "Yeah, it was pretty intentional. Mark's idea was like, "What about a Crash Bandicoot for PS4?" When he suggested the concept of Knack, we were like, "Yeah, we hate to see all the PS4 games being FPS or action-adventure or very photorealistic" - you know, big-budget blockbuster games. We know that people like these games, but these are not the only kinds of games that people can have fun with."

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1880716/we ... shida.html

[trap15]

Good to see Sony have actually pulled their heads out of their asses recently. Aside from the "PC architecture" bit, PS4 is looking fairly appealing, if only for how Sony is handling it.

[Ed Oscuro]

Last night I watched a bit of a video with analyst Michael Pachter and Adam Sessler, and Pachter thinks that Sony's not incuding Move in every box is a strategic failure. I don't see gamers really giving a damn about those controllers, though, so it makes sense to relegate it to a niche item (even though this obviously means fewer games developed using its features - good detective work Mikey boy).

Pachter also thinks Skype and a TV tuner are "killer apps" for Microsoft.

The latest information from VG Leaks is interesting though:
- "XBox Mini" is "always online" and that makes more sense because it doesn't have a disk drive.
- If plugged into Durango, you get 360 backwards compatibility and the ability to play discs (using Durango's drive)

VG Leaks' source alleges that "always online" doesn't interfere with playing local content.

If this is true it looks like a very good idea for Microsoft, because that way people who need BC for the very popular 360 library will be able to pay a little bit more (actually, given the "target" $149, Microsoft maybe figures they can soak people for $50 more than the $99 360 rerelease rumor would have it), and people who don't want it will have a slightly more compact and cheaper option for the 360. Still, when you consider the likely price of Durango + the Xbox Mini, it's at or maybe even more than the famous FIVE NINETY NINE. We might be looking at two or three units in total.

Microsoft must be having a hell of a good time reading through all the comments on these plans.

[EmperorIng]

Pachter has been wrong on virtually everything he's ever said though. He's an idiot.

[Ed Oscuro]

The second autocomplete entry when you type his name in Google fills in "is an idiot," I noticed. I know I've read some negative reactions to his pronouncements in tech before.

He actually had some good ideas when I watched the interview last night, but whether he thinks that something makes sense as a business model seems to me not to matter a lot. He doesn't think always online to play games makes sense - that may be so, and I say a lot of people agree with him on that. But ultimately it's a big opportunity for Microsoft to try to change peoples' expectations about what's permissible in a console. I know, regardless of what people think about Pachter, that there's a lot of "the sky is falling" scenarios when it has come to Intel and Microsoft over the years. However, you have to wonder how many of these terrible plans were decided against because of popular backlash. I hope this is one of them, but I also wonder that no matter how poisoned the popular perception of always online becomes, it'll always still look enticing to the game companies.