SD gaming on an HD CRT

[bobrocks95]

Posted this on a couple other AV and Gaming forums and never got a response. Hopefully someone here can help me out!

I've been looking everywhere for a specific Sony CRT, a KV-FV310, to no avail. Just today though I found a KV-HS510 locally for a good price. After some research, I see it's basically the same exact thing as the FV310, except it's a Hi-Scan Trinitron, so it's HD(Wikipedia cites its resolution as 853x1080i).

I've got a few questions, mainly how bad does 240p and 480i content look on an HD CRT? Since CRTs don't have a standard resolution can you force it into a certain resolution or is it going to always blow stuff up to 1080i or 720p or something? Also do HD CRTs inherently introduce lag? If so, how does it compare to modern flat panels- generally less or about the same? Pictures would be awesome if anybody has some to demonstrate. Thanks!

[Ed Oscuro]

If there is any lag it will be very slight. It's not upscaling anything (it doesn't have to) but maybe there is some internal signal conversion between analog and digital (and back again to analog, although Sony sets have some interesting hybrid stuff not worth going into but the later sets don't seem to be purely analog anymore in how the electron beams are controlled). In other words, far more acceptable in lag than almost any panel. Only the best panels will stand up to it in perceived speed, but then LCD panels also experience a response time to change state which appears longer than the standard CRT phosphors.

[hakujin]

I owned a KD-36XS955 with a super fine pitch tube that looked bad compared to a 24" Wega Trinitron for SD gaming. I spent a ton of time in the service menu (good thread on AVS) tweaking everything to try and replicate that SD CRT look on the set with no luck.

mainly how bad does 240p and 480i content look on an HD CRT? Since CRTs don't have a standard resolution can you force it into a certain resolution or is it going to always blow stuff up to 1080i or 720p or something?

The 36XS955 line doubled 480i to 960i with the interlaced DRC setting...I can't remember if it line doubled 480p as well. With DRC set to progressive the deinterlacer did introduce some lag. The line doubled "interlaced" setting was pretty fast but I never did any A/B testing regarding lag so I can't vouch that it is 100% lag free. The "interlaced" setting was snappier than my plasma.

I have no experience with the earlier Hi-Scan series but you will be disappointed with the later consumer "HD" sets.

[Lawfer]

If there is any lag it will be very slight. It's not upscaling anything (it doesn't have to) but maybe there is some internal signal conversion between analog and digital (and back again to analog, although Sony sets have some interesting hybrid stuff not worth going into but the later sets don't seem to be purely analog anymore in how the electron beams are controlled).

WTF? Is any of this also present on a monitor like the BVM-D20F1U or the BVM-D32E1WU?

Posted this on a couple other AV and Gaming forums and never got a response. Hopefully someone here can help me out!

I've been looking everywhere for a specific Sony CRT, a KV-FV310, to no avail. Just today though I found a KV-HS510 locally for a good price. After some research, I see it's basically the same exact thing as the FV310, except it's a Hi-Scan Trinitron, so it's HD(Wikipedia cites its resolution as 853x1080i).

I've got a few questions, mainly how bad does 240p and 480i content look on an HD CRT? Since CRTs don't have a standard resolution can you force it into a certain resolution or is it going to always blow stuff up to 1080i or 720p or something? Also do HD CRTs inherently introduce lag? If so, how does it compare to modern flat panels- generally less or about the same? Pictures would be awesome if anybody has some to demonstrate. Thanks!

For reto gaming I would suggest to keep trying to find a FV310 and stay away from consumer HDTV CRT with weird tube format and resolution.

[Ed Oscuro]

If there is any lag it will be very slight. It's not upscaling anything (it doesn't have to) but maybe there is some internal signal conversion between analog and digital (and back again to analog, although Sony sets have some interesting hybrid stuff not worth going into but the later sets don't seem to be purely analog anymore in how the electron beams are controlled).

WTF? Is any of this also present on a monitor like the BVM-D20F1U or the BVM-D32E1WU?

Even if it was, it's handled well enough that you wouldn't have to deal with it.

My suspicion is that there is some kind of sacrifice or neglect in the design of proper handling of 240p (which is, admittedly, not a "proper" SD signal type, at least according to the specifications; it's essentially a hack of 480i which puts the alternating field in the same place the first field was shown) in favor of HD scanning. The PVMs and especially the BVMs, by contrast, are designed to respond accurately and hold compatibility with different signal types without much fuss and with good accuracy.

For reto gaming I would suggest to keep trying to find a FV310 and stay away from consumer HDTV CRT with weird tube format and resolution.

The HD CRTs might have some advantage for some earlier progressive gaming or consoles which are 720p, but yeah they don't seem to hold any benefit for SD gaming. For starters, you are lugging around extra weight and probably paying more for electricity when you are displaying only a SD signal in the central part of the screen.

Some of the later digital technologies (what I was alluding to earlier) to help with the aggravated geometry issues of trying to scan a straight line to the extreme edges of this wide surface appear not to be as rock-solid as the old-fashioned all-analog timing. Of course the old spherical section TVs have the least geometry problems at all, but then "straight" lines can bow outwards - a 4:3 flat Trinitron seems like a nice compromise between simple image handling, and a flat display screen.

[Lawfer]

If there is any lag it will be very slight. It's not upscaling anything (it doesn't have to) but maybe there is some internal signal conversion between analog and digital (and back again to analog, although Sony sets have some interesting hybrid stuff not worth going into but the later sets don't seem to be purely analog anymore in how the electron beams are controlled). In other words, far more acceptable in lag than almost any panel. Only the best panels will stand up to it in perceived speed, but then LCD panels also experience a response time to change state which appears longer than the standard CRT phosphors.

But what you say here, is that specifically for 240p or not? If it is, does the same apply for 480i and 480p?

[Ed Oscuro]

Televisions which primarily support analog signals (like 240p), especially those that don't need to support HD resolutions, have no use for digital conversion. Just plug in your source to an analog input and you're ready to go. VGA input, if you can find it on a set, also qualifies as an analog input. About the digital electron gun geometry stuff, I think that's just a dynamically responsive technology developed very late on by Sony, and has no impact at all on lag. From what I have seen it isn't present on non-HD, non-widescreen CRTs anyway.

[Lawfer]

Do HD CRTs have a natuve resolution?

[bobrocks95]

Thinking about it now, this is supposed to be a 4:3 aspect ratio screen, but what's up with the 853 pixel horizontal resolution? That makes the actual aspect ratio for the screen a fantastical, seemingly made-up number. Is all content stretched to reach that funky horizontal res? If so, I guess it's an easy decision to not get the HS510.

Or is 853 the actual horizontal res of the SD Trinitron tubes also?

[Lawfer]

Thinking about it now, this is supposed to be a 4:3 aspect ratio screen

I have googled it up before answering you earlier and this TV is not 4:3, it is rectangularish whitout being a proper 16:9 tube either.

but what's up with the 853 pixel horizontal resolution? That makes the actual aspect ratio for the screen a fantastical, seemingly made-up number. Is all content stretched to reach that funky horizontal res?

If you want a perfect tube fit for retro gaming get am SD CRT TV/Monitor whose tube is true 4:3 such as the FV310 line.

http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopi ... 9f#p491161

Where do you live?

[Ed Oscuro]

There isn't a native resolution for any CRT. However, some CRT displays support certain resolutions better than others.

Thinking about it now, this is supposed to be a 4:3 aspect ratio screen, but what's up with the 853 pixel horizontal resolution? That makes the actual aspect ratio for the screen a fantastical, seemingly made-up number. Is all content stretched to reach that funky horizontal res? If so, I guess it's an easy decision to not get the HS510.

It represents a potential resolution for the set, rather than something you're actually going to reach (i.e., when did you ever hear of a system outputting exactly 853 lines of resolution?). I think it's a bit like the TV Lines designation you see on old broadcast monitors; having a number like 600 up to 900 (or more) TVL doesn't mean you will easily fit 600 or 900 lines, but it appears mainly to correspond with the definition of the pixels. Displays with a high number of TV lines seem to display a much nicer (including from the retrogaming perspective) image than those with lower TVL counts, even if you are using the same SD resolution signal on each.

Remember that CRTs operate by scanning line after line with the electron guns over the phosphors. The precision and spacing between these lines will form, if you look closely, a faint pattern of vertical stripes. This helps separate the regions of phosphor so the displayed pixels have defined edges. It does NOT mean that those are the boundaries of "actual" pixels, however, because how wide or thin each pixel is depends on how long the signal directs the electron guns to paint the phosphors on the set. If you scan more lines across the screen, you get a higher vertical resolution. If the signal pulses more often to define more pixels in a single line, you get a higher horizontal resolution. Neither is really dependent on the other, so long as it is within the bandwidth available on the signal and so long as the TV can actually process the signal properly.

I don't think the HS510 sounds like a bad set from what I have read, and it looks like it might be handsome too. If you want to run some older HD resolution consoles (i.e., GameCube, but pay another $100+ for the component cable) on it. CNet reviewed it and nothing sounds too bad. Of course, the sites that reviewed these things always neglected to write about the really important use - classic video games! - but it could be worth a shot.

Hopefully you can conduct a personalized test: What you might want to do is ask if you can test the television. Get it plugged in, plug in a console, and see if the displayed image is to your liking. Also make sure you have some kind of window for returns too.

[bobrocks95]

I have googled it up before answering you earlier and this TV is not 4:3, it is rectangularish whitout being a proper 16:9 tube either.

...

Where do you live?

Are you talking about the screen or tube's aspect ratio? Do you have a source on that anywhere? Not that I'm disbelieving, but I'd like to make sure since that sounds really weird. I know the 34" and 30" versions of this model are 16:9 but why wouldn't this be an actual 4:3 TV?

I'm in Lexington, KY, where the Trinitrons are few and far between. If I lived in San Francisco or Southern Florida or Boston or something, I'd have three FV310's by now, but unless I want to plan an enormous, expensive road trip it's not happening any time soon.

Hopefully you can conduct a personalized test: What you might want to do is ask if you can test the television. Get it plugged in, plug in a console, and see if the displayed image is to your liking. Also make sure you have some kind of window for returns too.

Unfortunately I guess that's what I'll have to do some time tomorrow. The TV is about 30 minutes away, and I'll bring an NES and SNES to see how things look. I do have a Gamecube, PS2, original Xbox, and Wii all hooked up with Component that I'm sure will look great in progressive scan on it, but we'll see about the older stuff.

Is the DRC setting easily changed with the remote so I can try a few of the upscaling options? Or is it a service menu thing?

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't know about DRC, but I would say this - only take one console, it'll show you enough; you don't want to encourage a mugging or theft. At that, I would probably take the NES unless you wanted to specifically test S-Video (or component inputs, but you'd need SNES RGB + an RGB to component converter), but the rather basic composite output of the NES should show up flaws quite well. Don't take an expensive game either

Service mode is not something you want to mess with at this time. Yes, you should be able to engage it with the remote, but don't.

[ChuChu Flamingo]

I would avoid HD CRT's unless it is of course multisync (which most aren't)

The vast majority of them line double 240p to 480p then to 1080i or half the resolution to 540p in some voodoo magic way (like sony's digital reality creation DRC for example)

With this in mind they do have input lag, sometimes rivaling HD flat panels.

Very few are true 480p.

[Lawfer]

I would avoid HD CRT's unless it is of course multisync (which most aren't)

The vast majority of them line double 240p to 480p then to 1080i or half the resolution to 540p in some voodoo magic way (like sony's digital reality creation DRC for example)

With this in mind they do have input lag, sometimes rivaling HD flat panels.

Very few are true 480p.

Is the BVM-D20F1U multisync? Should I avoid getting one then?

[Fudoh]

Of course it's multisync. D20 is a near perfect monitor. It's only flaw is that it can't handle PC DOS games (400p70).

[bobrocks95]

I think I'll just pass on this HS510 then. I keep assuming I'm going to waste an hour of my day driving out there, taking one look at it, and being turned off by its look immediately. A Hi-Scan is still an HD tube, and it seems like whatever I do it's still going to be linedoubling and upscaling and converting from interlaced to progressive and back again to whatever weird resolution it feels like. Thanks for all the help guys!

[Lawfer]

I think I'll just pass on this HS510 then. I keep assuming I'm going to waste an hour of my day driving out there, taking one look at it, and being turned off by its look immediately. A Hi-Scan is still an HD tube, and it seems like whatever I do it's still going to be linedoubling and upscaling and converting from interlaced to progressive and back again to whatever weird resolution it feels like. Thanks for all the help guys!

How much does the KV-27FV310 weights? If it is not too heavy, maybe you can find someone that would ship it to you?

[bobrocks95]

The 27" model is 105 lbs. 32" is 174 lbs. 36" I don't even want to know.

So what would that be to ship? I'd assume it would have to be freight and thus upwards of $80 for the lightest one.

[Lawfer]

The 27" model is 105 lbs. 32" is 174 lbs. 36" I don't even want to know.

So what would that be to ship? I'd assume it would have to be freight and thus upwards of $80 for the lightest one.

The 27" it will not qualify as freight, the 32" on the other hand will qualify as freight. As for the price that would depend on the company you want to use and which service you choose.

[bobrocks95]

I figured due to the sheer size of the TV it would have to be freight regardless of the weight. How else would you package a CRT to go on like a UPS truck?

[Lawfer]

I figured due to the sheer size of the TV it would have to be freight regardless of the weight. How else would you package a CRT to go on like a UPS truck?

This is a TV not a monitor, right?

[bobrocks95]

I figured due to the sheer size of the TV it would have to be freight regardless of the weight. How else would you package a CRT to go on like a UPS truck?

This is a TV not a monitor, right?

Yeah. So it's about 31" wide, 24" tall, and 21" deep according to Sony's specs sheet.

[Lawfer]

I figured due to the sheer size of the TV it would have to be freight regardless of the weight. How else would you package a CRT to go on like a UPS truck?

This is a TV not a monitor, right?

Yeah. So it's about 31" wide, 24" tall, and 21" deep according to Sony's specs sheet.

Okay so I dunno then, monitors are easier to ship because you can simply put them in their respective flight cases, TVs however came packaged in carton boxes, so the dimensions are bigger, that might be considered as freight then.

[Ed Oscuro]

I would avoid HD CRT's unless it is of course multisync (which most aren't)

The vast majority of them line double 240p to 480p then to 1080i or half the resolution to 540p in some voodoo magic way (like sony's digital reality creation DRC for example)

With this in mind they do have input lag, sometimes rivaling HD flat panels.

Very few are true 480p.

So the 1080i HD sets have, essentially, a fixed number of scanlines?

[Lawfer]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300887696426

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200913264764

[ChuChu Flamingo]

I would avoid HD CRT's unless it is of course multisync (which most aren't)

The vast majority of them line double 240p to 480p then to 1080i or half the resolution to 540p in some voodoo magic way (like sony's digital reality creation DRC for example)

With this in mind they do have input lag, sometimes rivaling HD flat panels.

Very few are true 480p.

So the 1080i HD sets have, essentially, a fixed number of scanlines?

Pretty much. MY 32'' Sony Wega HS420 changing between 240p, 480p even 1080i does not change the scanlines (which are pretty much non-existent)

[Fudoh]

but that's due to digital processing the TV applies to the incoming signal. It's not the tube's fault and doesn't apply to all 1080i CRTs.

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't know what "scaling" the image was supposed to accomplish when the CRT technology itself already natively scales an image flawlessly...maybe it was intended to increase the definition of pixel edges at 240 and 480 progressive resolutions, by rendering them at 1080i...what a hilarious concept. I've read other people complaining about the look. Definitely a shame but there are certainly a few sets which don't have this in any form.