Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Austin]

Editing your run into the OP if that's ok.

Go for it! I have no problem with that.

[Squire Grooktook]

So, on the strength of the suggestion, I gave Hagane a try on Super Nes. Game is fun as hell. I love the huge move set and pacing.

[Marble]

Macaw's Famicom action game thread over at gamengai probably covers every half-decent sidescroller on the system: http://www.gamengai.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2954

I think I'm gonna plug the NES back in and get that Shadow Warriors 2 clear happening. Only thing that's stopping me is the boss rush (though I usually can't be fucked trying it again after I die, even though I have 10+ lives at that point). Might as well, my arcade stick is broken so I can't play any fighters at the moment.

Indeed - then there's stuff like Ninja Spirit where you can freely alternate between shooting and melee modes, with Batman, Jigoku Gokurakumaru, GUN-DEC and Hagane allowing the same with limited ammo. I think Contra represents a pretty clear line, and although Gunstar Heroes has melee attacks I wouldn't say it plays like the Super Shinobis, so I didn't mention those even though they're highlights of the 16-bit gen for me.

Anyway, I deliberately left this topic a little loose, so it's all good.

Yeah, but then there's games like Metal Slug which I don't think anyone would deny is an action shooter, even though you can play through the whole thing just using the knife. Oh well, loose works.

[BIL]

Hell yeah, Macaw's topic is required reading for anyone getting back into the FC's action library (like me this time last year).

I'd say Metal Slug falls between Contra and Gunstar. In most Contras you simply have no melee and shoot everything. In MS you can kill most humanoid enemies with melee attacks, but you're forced to shoot anything mechanical, often in order to continue the stage. In GSH you can theoretically kill everything, even bosses* with melee, but its game design clearly leans more towards Super Contra's action shooting than Super Shinobi's action platforming.

*if I'm not misremembering about GSH. I know for sure every Super Shinobi I & II boss can be taken out via melee, since otherwise you'd be hosed if you ran out of shuriken. Shadow Dancer MD demands shuriken for bosses and gives you them even if you're playing No Shuriken mode.

NGII is actually a harder one-life clear than the original, imo. Despite the mountain of extends you'll have by Act VII it's all too easy to get whittled down by 7-1 and 7-2, and the second rush boss is dangerous. Serious business as soon as you reach that point. I'm trying to get a no-miss recorded too, watch this space!

[Edmond Dantes]

Cool topic, and it's interesting to see some of the back-and-forth over the last two pages. On one side, you have experienced players that have probably been playing the game since they were kids, and then someone who picked it up recently for the first time and simply just doesn't understand it.

I "understand" it, I just don't have the nebulous, all-allowing definition of "fair" that seems to pervade here.

Seriously. My dad used to tell me to learn to drive, but then would say I'm not allowed to until I learn. From what I'm hearing here, that's fair entirely because there's no random elements. Bullshit. You can't say "you need practice" then deny that opportunity.

That's what I mean about the restart points. Basically, I get one shot at the boss per game session. God forbid I don't magically intuit Jaquio's pattern when I've just reached him for the first time. I think some people like BIL lose perspective--they think that just because they can beat a game, that it's fair. But I can beat several games that have massive design flaws and oversights, that doesn't keep me from recognizing that those things are in fact flaws. On the flipside, I can't beat most of the games I cited as examples of fairness earlier, and I still recognize that they're fair.

BIL, when you do Ninja Gaiden II, include the cutscenes, please?

[BIL]

Nobody's denying Famicom NGs are a bit cunty about boss rush restarts. At the same time nobody is going agree with you that what they do is "unfair." Please don't bring up the myopia angle again, it gets tiring. There's no magic involved in learning to counter and kill Jaquio, just a determination to make the most of every encounter with him. Despite the game being a total cunt!

BIL, when you do Ninja Gaiden II, include the cutscenes, please?

Sorry, my connection is patchy and slow at the best of times so anywhere I can save time I have to, for my sanity's sake.

edit: ah, what the hell. Can't promise anything, but I'll give it a shot since you mentioned Silent Hill.

[Ed Oscuro]

In GSH you can theoretically kill everything, even bosses* with melee, but its game design clearly leans more towards Super Contra's action shooting than Super Shinobi's action platforming.

*if I'm not misremembering about GSH. I know for sure every Super Shinobi I & II boss can be taken out via melee, since otherwise you'd be hosed if you ran out of shuriken. Shadow Dancer MD demands shuriken for bosses and gives you them even if you're playing No Shuriken mode.

I am quite sure you haven't made any errors at all in this section, including Gunstar Super Heroes, which is a bit like Atom Boy in that it seems designed to be doable with any subset of the attack arsenal, but things go smoother when choosing some weapons over others. I don't recall anything special about color matching (kind of strange given the semi-Sentai color theming business the series is big on) for massive damage, but you can still do damage just sliding (for example).

[blackoak]

Working on Batman (FC) right now myself. I remember beating this as a kid... really like the feel of the jumping.

[Edmond Dantes]

Nobody's denying

My eyes must need rest... I literally read this as "Nobunaga's denying"

Sorry, my connection is patchy and slow at the best of times so anywhere I can save time I have to, for my sanity's sake.

edit: ah, what the hell. Can't promise anything, but I'll give it a shot since you mentioned Silent Hill.

I'll keep my fingers crossed, but if you can't do it, don't worry.

In the meantime... well, I might keep playing NG, but I've been alternating between that and Blaster Master when it comes to the NES.

[BIL]

Gunstar Super Heroes

Oops. Forgot about Gunstar Super Heroes, haven't played it beyond a couple stages. That was "GunStarHeroes" I was badly abbreviating.

[Ed Oscuro]

Nobody's denying

My eyes must need rest... I literally read this as "Nobunaga's denying"

Sometime we'll have a X68000 thread, have no fear

[Edmond Dantes]

Trying to figure out the connection between Oda Nobunaga and the X68000... (I'm guessing there was a really good edition of Nobunaga's Ambition for it).

[BIL]

Ok, NGII no-miss with cutscenes is in the bag! Will upload the inp in a sec. YT upload should be done by sometime tonight.

edit: >Input file for FCEUX 2.2.1 ROM used: "Ninja Gaiden II - The Dark Sword of Chaos (U) [!].nes"

I appreciate how much more subweapon-oriented NGII is compared to the original, now. Besides the sword being slightly harder to connect with, there are so many more situations where enemies attack at odd angles, or flat-out surround you, and your subweapon choice is the difference between wiping out all or struggling to keep the horde at bay. Not that you can't just wing it through, but for optimal rock and roll action it's good to know what weapon to pick. And holy shit, subweapon pickups are everywhere. It's almost like you can switch them at will.

I'm pretty happy with the run. Plays pretty aggressively for the most part, although you can tell in Act VII I'm playing a bit more cautiously as it's so easy to die there and blow the whole run. I also take a fairly severe beating in 6-1, and then realise I've no idea if there are any life restores in that whole act. Something to look into.

And yep Marble, finished with something like a million lives in stock.

[Ghegs]

Good job, BIL.

I "understand" it, I just don't have the nebulous, all-allowing definition of "fair" that seems to pervade here.

What you say is "unfair" is just "harsh". If you get hit or killed because you don't know what's coming and are therefore unprepared for it, that sounds perfectly fine to me. If you get sent a ways back because of it, that's certainly mean and unpleasant. But I don't see anything inherently unfair about it, just harshness.

Unfair would be dying due to no fault of your own. Here, you are at fault. This isn't Kaizo Mario.

[Edmond Dantes]

Taking this whole thing in... quite a different direction...

Thanks to Ninja Gaiden, I'm now interested in ninja media in general. Preferably ones with the traditional black suits (or dark blue, whatever). Video games, movies, anime.

Throw something at me. Anything. Preferably something in the spirit of NG.

[BIL]

Ninja Scroll (1993).

0% moe, 110% ninja bloodbath with a no-nonsense plot, strong cast, dark atmosphere and one memorable action setpiece after another.

A driving, bloody, fantastical "boss rush" on one hand, but the various players are all perfectly defined, the atmosphere is pitilessly dark, and the integration of a small-scale vendetta with a major national crisis is seamless, ensuring neither scenario wears thin. Even the potentially disastrous romantic subplot is developed well and leaves a credible impression. Good stuff all-around.

It has some *serious* explosions too. Something about dynamite in a feudal Japan (or old west) setting just rocks. Demolishing a building must've really meant something back then.

I prefer subbed, but the Manga UK dub is respectable and has just the right degree of cheese, so it's entirely acceptable.

[Edmond Dantes]

Actually, I've already seen that one. And Ninja Resurrection too. (And I just obtained a fansub of the Ninja Gaiden OVA itself)

That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for tho.

[BIL]

I've not seen the NG OVA. Or the Salamander OVA... or the Garou Densetsu or Samurai Spirits ones. The SFII theatrical release anime was and is pretty goddamn rad, though.

"My beautiful face is ruined! You bitch I'll make you sufferrr!"

No idea if NG's is any good, but I do think of it from time to time since it provides the boxart of the third Famicom game.

[Edmond Dantes]

Haven't watched NG yet (you can find it on Youtube, just search for "Ninja Gaiden anime") but I can tell you right now: Salamander and Fatal Fury are all good.

My only beef with Salamander is that the episodes aren't chronological--Ep 1 is based on Salamander, but then the other two are based on Gradius I and II, respectively. That means you should watch episode two first (Ep 1 actually spoils the ending to Ep 2).

As for Fatal Fury, only thing I don't care for is how the first OVA and the theatrical movie both have Terry win by giving him abilities he doesn't actually have in the games. Other than that, they're awesome.

SFII, oh man... for years I thought that was a good movie, then I saw it with the original Japanese soundtrack...

[Ghegs]

The NG OVA is just kind of average. But a decent watch, I'd say.

I really liked the movie Ninja Assassin, though I might be alone in that. And it's more in the style of the XBox Ninja Gaiden games, I suppose.

[Obiwanshinobi]

[BIL]

Oh good, the inp has finished encoding. Uploading to YT now.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Thanks to Ninja Gaiden, I'm now interested in ninja media in general. Preferably ones with the traditional black suits (or dark blue, whatever). Video games, movies, anime.

Throw something at me. Anything. Preferably something in the spirit of NG.

2x2=Shinobuden. The MC is easily the best ninja I've ever seen and that is no lie nor exaggeration.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Also, Oh! Edo Rocket, but I'd better stop here.

[BIL]

To get this back on topic, will try to get a Jigoku Gokurakumaru no-miss up tonight too. This is my last week to indulge in hardcore gaming for a bit, have to knuckle down for the next few months or my mounting university backlog is gonna shatter my spine.

I just realised outside of Akumajo Dracula I/III, Ninja Ryukenden I/II and a few scattered others I don't have much of a Famicom no-miss repertoire. Will need to fix that, probably starting with Batman. I can't remember if I ever no-missed it, certainly not in recent memory.

[Drum]

Kick Master is a great NES action game. I'm sure there is an excellent explanation for why that hasn't been mentioned yet.

On Fairness:

You best not believe that randomness makes something unfair. Apply that reasoning to opponents in multiplayer games and you can see how empty it is (compare also computer-generated randomness in multiplayer games and how undesirable that often is). It can be unfair - it just depends on implementation.

[BIL]

I think I'll post .inps for now and upload them to Youtube next week. Playing while encoding in the background screws up my timing and I'm rusty+distracted as hell and on limited time. Watch this space, Jigoku Gokurakumaru no-miss coming up. It's not a very hard game at all but it's got a nice stylish acrobatic hook and interesting art direction which are always a pleasure. Control is a bit on the touchy side compared to other first-rate FC sidescrollers - a featherlight touch is needed to get the low jump, and environmental hazards like conveyor belts and icy floors affect physics a little jarringly. Still, it's easily adjusted to and collision and responsiveness are dead-on.

EDIT1: >Input file for FCEUX 2.2.1 ROM used: "Jigoku Gokuraku Maru (J).nes"

EDIT2: Video uploaded!

Nearly got killed by the last boss because I forgot how to safespot its three-way spread. Actually all of the bosses could've been handled more impressively, especially the second. When I was playing this game seriously I spent time figuring out how to whoop his ass without projectiles or taking more than a couple hits at most. A few spills during the levels but nothing major. This is an easy game to survive but not to play stylishly.

[blackoak]

Ugh, Batman stage 5-1. Can't tell if HDTV input lag or just my own sucking is the problem, but that gear section... great game though. Kind of sad there's only 5 stages. I guess that's why people do no-weapon runs and such.

EDIT: beat it, not too bad overall, but I could never master the difficult gear jumps. had to just take the point of damage (even that requires being careful, since its easy to wall jump back INTO the gears). still feel like there should be more levels, a sequel, a fan remix, etc. lets see what's next in that list...

[Edmond Dantes]

I once or twice managed to get past the gears without taking hits. I know how I'm supposed to do it, its just getting the technique down thats a bitch.

Normally I don't bother, since any enemy can drop a health refill.

[BrianC]

Which version of Werewolf/Warwolf should I go for? JP version came later and has some odd differences in level design, but the US version seems has the cooler ending.