Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Fudoh]

Today's V402 auction ended for a measely 40 EUR. Unfortunately it was too far from my home base.

[Lawfer]

PS3 - certainly, since that's software emulation.

And no, a PS2 completely switches into a native PS1 mode - including the graphics chip.

I have a Playstation 3 60Gb with the emotion engine, is that still software emulation?

Today's V402 auction ended for a measely 40 EUR. Unfortunately it was too far from my home base.

I know about it since I am the one who won the auction, will have to work out how the shipping would be handled though and of course I am the one who cover all the shipping costs, it is still worth it though.

[Fudoh]

have a Playstation 3 60Gb with the emotion engine, is that still software emulation?

yes, PS1 in software, PS2 in hardware.

I know about it since I am the one who won the auction, will have to work out how the shipping would be handled though and of course I am the one who cover all the shipping costs, it is still worth it though.

nice, gratulations! Make sure you don't get it "shipped" with a standard service, but get a proper conveyance. The problem is not the weight, nor are the Pioneers especially sensitive, but the glas sheet in front is the problem and the unit needs to be transported STANDING.

[Lawfer]

yes, PS1 in software, PS2 in hardware.

Okay, so playing Playstation 1 and Playstation 2 games is better on a Playstation 2 than on a backward compatible Playstation 3?

nice, gratulations!

Thanks! Saw it 30 minutes right before the auction was about to end.

Make sure you don't get it "shipped" with a standard service, but get a proper conveyance. The problem is not the weight, nor are the Pioneers especially sensitive, but the glas sheet in front is the problem and the unit needs to be transported STANDING.

Any advice on which shipping company I should use and which service to choose?

[Fudoh]

Okay, so playing Playstation 1 and Playstation 2 games is better on a Playstation 2 than on a backward compatible Playstation 3?

PS3 can't do 240p on PS1 titles. It outputs 480i instead. It also adds quite some lag. The only reason to use it on PS1 games is, if you want razorsharp 1080p output.

Any advice on which shipping company I should use and which service to choose?

I would check your local car sharing services and see if someone travels into the region and would be willing to pick it up. I couldn't imagine a transport company accepting a plasma screen without proper packaging.

[Lawfer]

PS3 can't do 240p on PS1 titles. It outputs 480i instead. It also adds quite some lag. The only reason to use it on PS1 games is, if you want razorsharp 1080p output.

Oh that explains why Playstation games felt so awkward on Playstation 3 compared to Playstation 2 games.

I would check your local car sharing services and see if someone travels into the region and would be willing to pick it up. I couldn't imagine a transport company accepting a plasma screen without proper packaging.

Will try that, thanks.

btw Frohe Ostern!

[BubbaMc]

To those of you that own one of the late model PVM's, how do you do your adjustments?

I carried out those adjustments through displaying a 480i signal on the 14L2 (same as yours). All geometry settings should be identical in 240p and 480i.

My 14L2 has trouble also displaying menus in 240p. It seems as though depending on the menu being triggered on even/odd lines, it will sometimes display correctly in 240p, sometimes not as half the lines are effectively skipped in 240p! It's there, only drawn on the actual black scanlines

Cheers. I made some more adjustments with a 480i signal and it's centered nicely now.

Scanlines are very strong (black) in the middle of the screen but a bit softer on the lower and upper areas. It seems the focus or convergence in these areas might be a bit out. It's probably me just being picky, but id like to make some adjustments to see if it can be made a bit sharper. Anyone got any ideas as to what can be done here?

Also, Does any one have a service manual for an L2, or know where to purchase one?

[16shot]

@Bubba, here comes:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/yi24o4

This contains both the regular manual and service manual to the L2 series.

As for your scanlines issue, it might just be the picture being slightly stretched in the middle of the screen/compressed at the top and bottom, which i believe is something that can be adjusted through the service menu.

Have fun!

[BubbaMc]

Thanks for the manuals, these are just what I need.

[hakujin]

I recently purchased a BVM-20E1U and a BVM-D32E1WU. The 20 is amazing and everything looks phenomenal. The 32 has a strange blue tint to the raster area and when it warms up you can see faint stationary diagonal bars in the background that are a bit lighter than the already blue tinted raster. Colors seem normal besides that. Anyone have any service menu configuration experience that might help me troubleshoot? I'm pretty comfortable tinkering but no luck so far.

That sounds like too much BLUE gain which can be adjusted via the service menu.... and it maybe a combination of too many screen volts as well, which is only adjustable on the chassis.

Blue gain and screen voltage (available as G2 REF in the MAINTENANCE menu under BK Board on the 32) didn't have any effect. Sony pro service advised the tube was bad and I was losing hope...then one of the guys at Sony called me back this afternoon and said he spoke to an older tech that had a lot of experience with the CRT series and that it was a long shot but to turn the two focus potentiometers all the way and leave them for a bit. Worked!

[hakujin]

BVM-D32E1WU maintenance manual: http://www.sendspace.com/file/8wsab2 Includes the operations manual as well. Hope someone can make use of this because it was difficult to find.

[BubbaMc]

Glad you fixed it. That's some display you've got there!

Any chance of posting some pics of a 720p source? I've often wondered what would be the ultimate display for PS3/360, I think the BVM 32" is it.

[Fudoh]

Anybody using a supergun on a higher-end PVM (L4/5) or BVM ?

I would like to know how those monitors handle non-standard refresh rates like 54Hz Seibu or 55Hz Irem boards.

[fagin]

Work fine on my BVM.

[Lawfer]

PS3 can't do 240p on PS1 titles. It outputs 480i instead. It also adds quite some lag. The only reason to use it on PS1 games is, if you want razorsharp 1080p output.

Is Wii and Wii U backward compatibility also hardware emulation?

[Fudoh]

Yes, but the HDMI output messes with the VC titles.. You might wanna check if the component connection is still able to do 240p.

[16shot]

You might wanna check if the component connection is still able to do 240p.

It does very much so on the Wii.

And while we're at it, the Virtual Console ports of Segas System16 coin-ops look phenomenal in 240p, making Shinobi on it the one and only arcade perfect port out there. Truly worth it for anyone out there with a CRT that does component.

Sadly a lot of VC titles have been updated over time, seeing their 240p switch code removed. That's the case of most if not all PC Engine titles

[Fudoh]

I know that the Wii works great in 240p, but the question was, if the WiiU does so as well ?

[Lawfer]

And no, a PS2 completely switches into a native PS1 mode - including the graphics chip.

So is that also "hardware emulation"?

[Fudoh]

depends on how you define "emulation". I wouldn't call it emulation. It's basically a full hardware PS1 included in hardware. Same with the Wii and the WiiU.

[Lawfer]

depends on how you define "emulation". I wouldn't call it emulation. It's basically a full hardware PS1 included in hardware. Same with the Wii and the WiiU.

So why dont you consider it to be the same case for the first generation Playstation 3 20Gb and 60Gb? From what I read these models are basically Playstation 3s with Playstation 2 inside of them:

Some versions of the PlayStation 3 game console include a chip called the Emotion Engine. The Emotion Engine is the Central Processing Unit for the PlayStation 2 console. Its presence in the PlayStation 3 makes it possible for the PlayStation 3 to run PlayStation 2 games exactly as they would run on the older console.

The Ps2 was a very complex system, it was hard to code for and this has also resulted in being harder to emulate.

To achieve Ps2 backwards compatibility, Sony didn’t even resort to emulation, they basically grabbed a Ps2 and incorporated it into the Ps3. Both the Emotion Engine (the Ps2′s CPU) and the Graphics Synthesiser (the Ps2′s GPU) were soldered into early Ps3′s mother board. This allowed perfect Ps2 compatibility for the Ps3. The Ps3 models that used this hardware were the Japanese and American 20Gb and 60Gb models.

[Fudoh]

So why dont you consider it to be the same case for the first generation Playstation 3 20Gb and 60Gb? From what I read these models are basically Playstation 3s with Playstation 2 inside of them:

because of the post processing applied by the PS3's video processor. The output is just not the same. 240p is converted to 480i and everything else is usually run through the PS3's video processor for upscaling. If you play a PS2 game which doesn't support 480p you get severe lag because of the deinterlacing and scaling applied in post processing.

For 480i and 480p through component, it's likely ok though.

I've had a japanese launch PS3 for years and just fail to see the advantage is has over a real PS2.

[Fudoh]

Any progress with your Plasma purchase ?

[Lawfer]

because of the post processing applied by the PS3's video processor. The output is just not the same. 240p is converted to 480i and everything else is usually run through the PS3's video processor for upscaling. If you play a PS2 game which doesn't support 480p you get severe lag because of the deinterlacing and scaling applied in post processing.

I did notice very HEAVY lags when fighting a certain big dragon boss in Odin Sphere, I did always assume that this was something normal for this game, but maybe this was due to the fact that I played it on Playstation 3?

For 480i and 480p through component, it's likely ok though.

The connection is with HDMI and the resolution is 1080p with the option to sharpen the graphics on and I agree that Playstation games are awfull on the Playstation 3 60Gb, I tried Shadow Tower, Devils Deception and the games were definitly slower and the animation felt kind of offish, but on the other hand Playstation 2 games run like a charm in my opinion.

Any progress with your Plasma purchase ?

Yeah sent a message today, he said that there was no box to put the screen inside, I replied asking him if he could pack it with styrofoam, air bubbles etc and get a box for it. I will probably use DHL for shipping.

[Fudoh]

The connection is with HDMI and the resolution is 1080p with the option to sharpen the graphics on

The PS3's upscaler is not good. You can achieve SO MUCH better results by using a PS2 and other video processors.

[Lawfer]

The connection is with HDMI and the resolution is 1080p with the option to sharpen the graphics on

The PS3's upscaler is not good. You can achieve SO MUCH better results by using a PS2 and other video processors.

Will do that, but could you give names of those other video processors?

[Lawfer]

Could you tell if those are the correct assumptions:

Best way to play Playstation games = Playstation 2 console

Best way to play Playstation 2 games = Playstation 2 console

Best way to play Gamecube games = Wii console

Best way to play Wii games = Wii U console

Is that accurate?

By what you say, Playstation 3 is to avoid for anything beside Playstation 3 games, but isnt Wii games on Wii U hardware emulation too like for the Playstation 3? Because you play 480p games in 1080p using HDMI?

[Fudoh]

Best way to play Playstation games = Playstation 2 console

no, for 99% it doesn't matter if you use a PS1 or a PS2, but the last 1% doesn't work on a PS2 (Gradius Gaiden, Toaplan Shooting Battle...)

Best way to play Playstation 2 games = Playstation 2 console

certainly.

Best way to play Gamecube games = Wii console

I haven't gone into details comparing the Cuba's component quality and the Wii's component quality. If you have a NTSC cube with component cable, that should be ideal. The Cube's 480p output seems a bit soft, while the Wii's 480p output seems a bit fringed. A Wii along with component cable is certainly cheaper though, due to the ridiculous cube cable prices. On the other hand: if you take a D-Terminal cube cable and mod it for RGB/VGA you have the perfect cable for your Pioneer plasma.

Best way to play Wii games = Wii U console

definitely not. WiiU produces a visible chroma shift when upscaling Wii games. Wii + video processor is better.

but could you give names of those other video processors?

no, read up on my site and chose whatever matches your profile. PS2 is especially complicated because 240p, 480i and 480p all require a different focus...

[ryu]

if you take a D-Terminal cube cable and mod it for RGB/VGA you have the perfect cable for your Pioneer plasma.

i thought people modded component cables into vga cables?
or are those two different things?

[Lawfer]

no, for 99% it doesn't matter if you use a PS1 or a PS2, but the last 1% doesn't work on a PS2 (Gradius Gaiden, Toaplan Shooting Battle...)

But I remember reading a long time ago that PS1 game did look slightly better when played on PS2?

certainly.

Haha.

I haven't gone into details comparing the Cuba's component quality and the Wii's component quality. If you have a NTSC cube with component cable, that should be ideal. The Cube's 480p output seems a bit soft, while the Wii's 480p output seems a bit fringed. A Wii along with component cable is certainly cheaper though, due to the ridiculous cube cable prices. On the other hand: if you take a D-Terminal cube cable and mod it for RGB/VGA you have the perfect cable for your Pioneer plasma.

I have an NTSC gamecube with the official component cable, an NTSC Wii with the official component cable and a PAL Wii with the official Euro-scart cable.

definitely not. WiiU produces a visible chroma shift when upscaling Wii games. Wii + video processor is better.

Okay, good thing I didnt pick up a Wii U just for that like I was planning to do then.

PS2 is especially complicated because 240p, 480i and 480p all require a different focus...

Yeah that is why I was asking, because it is way too all over the place, the best you could do is switch video processors depending on each games max/native outputs.