I finally figured out what's been bugging me about Treasure.

[oboewan42]

For a while now, I've been trying (with very limited success) to not be completely terrible at Ikaruga and RSG, and something just kinda struck me as... off... about the games. They're good games, don't get me wrong, but something just didn't seem right.

And no, it wasn't the chaining mechanics, even though I'm not really a fan of them; I tried playing just for straight survival, still got my ass kicked on the first couple stages (or stagelets in RSG's case), still didn't really feel like the game clicked.

And then I figured out why these games have been bugging me so much.

Ikaruga and RSG aren't vertical shmups. They're rotated horis in disguise.

Horis just aren't my cup of tea. They're good games, don't get me wrong, I like them, it's just that I have yet to find one that liked me back... and it's the same with Treasure shmups. The deliberate pacing, the slow ship movement, the focus on enemy placement, the maneuvering through environmental hazards, the heavy memorization aspect, the likelihood of dying multiple times in rapid succession by running into the walls if you haven't memorized a particular section... They're all tropes that would place these games squarely on the hori end of the spectrum. If you showed me RSG stage 3C or Ikaruga stage 2, slapped a fresh coat of paint on it, turned the monitor on its side and told me that it was a new R-Type spinoff, I'd probably believe you.

Horis demand a different playstyle than verts, a playstyle which I'm absolutely terrible at and probably always will be. Even so, I'm pretty sure the best credit of Ikaruga I ever played, happened when I was too lazy to rotate my monitor and played it in horizontal mode.

Thoughts?

EDIT: And don't get me wrong, not trying to knock horis or Treasure here, not at all. I like the games! It's just that, as I mentioned earlier, they don't exactly like me back. They're not necessarily harder, easier, better or worse, they just tend to demand a different playstyle than most verts do. Besides, I'm pretty sure that these two are the only non-euro vertical shmups I've ever played that have had actual walls to crash into, and that has to count for something.

[Skykid]

They're still verts. If you don't chain in RSG your weaponry will be underpowered and you can't progress.

[trap15]

The deliberate pacing, the slow ship movement, the focus on enemy placement, [snipped], the heavy memorization aspect, the likelihood of dying multiple times in rapid succession [snipped] if you haven't memorized a particular section...

Those are all aspects of older STG, not horis. Under-appreciated mechanics in this day and age.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think your first mistake is assuming that hori's are inanely more memorization focused then verts. Environmental hazards aren't any different then any other static obstacle you might face, and they aren't nessicarily based entirely around foreknowledge either.

Also Pro tip = foreknowledge always helps at everything.

Also I think your argument is just really silly. It's not a "true" vertical shmup because it has it's own unique play style that's different from your cookie cutter vert games? What? Vertical just means it scrolls vertically, it has nothing to do with play style.

Treasure games are just really unique. If you don't like them that's fine, they're not for everyone.

[EmperorIng]

I can't comment on RSG, but Ikaruga definitely places a great deal of emphasis on strict memorization of enemy placement and knowledge of the best place to put the ship in order to absorb bullets successfully.

As others have mentioned, these characteristics are often more found in older shmups, that rely on environmental hazards and memorization as opposed to arcane scoring systems. I like to think that because Treasure were traditionally 'outsiders' to the genre, they have a more 'classic' approach to shmups, though they have to stuff them full of Treasure-isms (which sometimes doesn't work to the strengths of the genre).

[Ed Oscuro]

Hey, I just realized I can play RSG at full speed. Not bad. Definitely a memorizer. The three weapon system feels like another take on Athena's Daioh, except more carefully designed.

[trap15]

Daioh > RSG.

Fact.

[Mortificator]

I'm pretty sure that these two are the only non-euro vertical shmups I've ever played that have had actual walls to crash into

Shippu Mahou Daisakusen
Castle of Shikigami II
Castle of Shikigami III
Image Fight
Image Fight II
War of Aero
Super Aleste
Musha Aleste
Dennin Aleste
Spriggan
Dragon Spirit
Phelios
1941
Blast Wind
Nexzr...

[Wonderbanana]

I can't comment on RSG, but Ikaruga definitely places a great deal of emphasis on strict memorization of enemy placement and knowledge of the best place to put the ship in order to absorb bullets successfully.

In most respects RSG is the same.

The OP's argument is daft imho but props to him/her for trying to back it up rather than just making a random one line statement.

[ciox]

I'm pretty sure that these two are the only non-euro vertical shmups I've ever played that have had actual walls to crash into

Shippu Mahou Daisakusen
Castle of Shikigami II
Castle of Shikigami III
Image Fight
Image Fight II
War of Aero
Super Aleste
Musha Aleste
Dennin Aleste
Spriggan
Dragon Spirit
Phelios
1941
Blast Wind
Nexzr...

More modern examples from G.Rev, you can crash into towers in Under Defeat, and Strania just straight up references Treasure at points, with walls and moving boxes.

[Zaarock]

I've been playing both games recently after playing a bunch of treasure games in general. Going for 1ccs in RS and trying to figure out why I don't like Ikaruga that much.. Don't really agree with the OP's argument though, Horis dont need to be inherently different from Verts, as trap15 said they just take different aspects of older shmups. Gradius V doesn't feel like a pure-blood Hori if you want to look at it your way either.

It throws me off how different the two games are from eachother. RS has many short levels with simpler "puzzles" than Ikaruga and a ton of bosses per playthrough which IMO are quite well designed and different from eachother. Any fan of bosses with destroyable parts in general or games where you have to master using multiple weapons should enjoy fighting bosses like these that get more aggressive the more you destroy them, etc.

My favorite parts of RS are the weapon system and the bosses, neither of these are featured in Ikaruga. Ikaruga is rather the level aspect of RS improved upon and made the game, while the weapon system is replaced with the polarity mechanic and homing lasers.

Also something I don't ever see being posted on this forum is how EASY the chains in RS are. Yeah, I'm not kidding.. tell me if you can find a shmup where you can copy WR level chaining strategies so easily. I learned all the maximized chains apart from two levels(4E,5A) in arcade mode in a week, try to do that in DFK or DOJ and it'll take you a at least a year, maybe? You can ignore all of them apart from the biggest ones if you're going for 1cc as well (in stage 4 route)

I appreciate what Ikaruga did to the chaining formula, you have bonus waves, absorbing bullets on purpose for score and tons of high execution chains. The only thing in RS that is similar in design is the Stage 5A chain. It's really more of a score attack game than RS, and more of an arcade game since RS was intended for console first anyway.

[justin007]

trap15 is a closet fag

[Skykid]

trap15 is a closet fag

Wha...

[Ghegs]

Go read the Forum Rules for a while.

[Special World]

I think my problem with Treasure games is just that they're too sterile. They have this methodological feel that just really doesn't get my blood pumping; everything feels so constrained and put into place. I loved Ikaruga for a good while, and I consider it my second shooter love after Mars Matrix, but now that I've played more bullet hell I just can't go back. It's fun for multiplayer but that's about it for me.

And when I was playing tons of Ikaruga, I played it in hori mode so long that I forgot it was a vert. Tried playing it as a vert a while back and it felt really strange (obviously).

[trap15]

trap15 is a closet fag

What the fuck

I don't see how that has anything to do with this

[Zaarock]

I think my problem with Treasure games is just that they're too sterile. They have this methodological feel that just really doesn't get my blood pumping; everything feels so constrained and put into place.

Boss rushes in Radiant Silvergun, Gunstar Heroes and Alien Soldier feel too sterile? What you say sounds like what I think of Ikaruga but that's just one game. Sorry if I'm presuming wrong but Ikaruga doesn't have many similarities to other treasure games (unless we're just talking about shmups)

[Special World]

I think my problem with Treasure games is just that they're too sterile. They have this methodological feel that just really doesn't get my blood pumping; everything feels so constrained and put into place.

Boss rushes in Radiant Silvergun, Gunstar Heroes and Alien Soldier feel too sterile? What you say sounds like what I think of Ikaruga but that's just one game.

Radiant Silvergun's design just feels too sterile in general. Extremely slow play control and rigid scoring systems make it boring for me. I haven't played much of it because it turns me off so much. Alien Soldier has good bosses, but the little chunks of level in between them feel like a completely wasted opportunity. Gunstar Heroes doesn't feel sterile or restricted at all, I'll admit.

Even Bangai-O feels really canned to me. You'd think a game about homerun-batting bullets back at enemies would be energetic, but the puzzle-style levels are a total snooze.

[Jeneki]

For me it's simple: I don't find color chaining fun. I don't play shmups to let gobs of enemies get away because they aren't the right color.

I can appreciate the level and boss designs though.

[Herr Schatten]

Ikaruga and RSG aren't vertical shmups. They're rotated horis in disguise.

This is clearly wrong. I usually prefer horis to verts, but I dislike Treasure's games with a passion.

[Yoshi]

I'm tremendously disappointed the first post didn't just say "their fans."

[WarpZone]

I like to think that because Treasure were traditionally 'outsiders' to the genre, they have a more 'classic' approach to shmups

With Radiant Silvergun we know that Iuchi wanted to make a game that broke away from what he saw as the mainstream trend of shot + bomb and focus more on mechanics and terrain, citing Irem and Konami as inspirations, particularly Image Fight. There's some untranslated thoughts on that here:

http://www.geocities.jp/bgrtype/gsl/wor ... g/rsg.html

Nevertheless, Treasure still borrowed from 'modern' design principles -- consider the tiny hitbox, bullet scratching and absorbing (was scratching done before RSG?), enough bullet-dense areas to make Ikaruga a poster child of a 'bullet hell' game, and memorization not usually required for pure survival.

Vertical and horizontal scrolling of course have nothing to do with playstyle by themselves, and in the same way an R-Type-inspired game might scroll vertically a Cave-style game might scroll horizontally -- Progear plays more like Dodonpachi than Gradius. There are some subtle design differences in orientation -- aimed bullets are usually regarded as easier to track up/down due to human physiology, while concepts like gravity are easier to convey from a side perspective. With Radiant and Ikaruga, I think the orientation is heavily tied to the use of symmetry in the visual design and patterns.

[Squire Grooktook]

http://www.geocities.jp/bgrtype/gsl/wor ... g/rsg.html

"Iuchi-speed: bullets are deliberately slow. If you try to sex game astute enemy bullets, and avoid bullets like we painted the gap,
　　　　　I think get to taste the fun slower the speed of bullets of avoiding bullets to more people."

Someone please help.


Also @Special World

Actually I've had the opposite experience. I like Radiant a lot, and the other games from Treasure I've played as well. But honestly Gunstar Heroes is the one game I really don't like. Even as a kid, I thought it was highly over-rated. It just feels really loose and imprecise compared to other run and gun shooters like Contra and whatnot, and the stages are too gimmick and boss fest styled for my tastes. For me at least the game is very style over substance imo.

*edit, one other thing*

There are some subtle design differences in orientation -- aimed bullets are usually regarded as easier to track up/down due to human physiology, .

Is this really accurate? It seems to me that a lot of traditional shooters, hori or vert, use aimed bullets a lot. I've never really had any issue dodging aimed bullets in Gradius/Darius vs Rayforce/Raiden.

[Special World]

I actually don't prefer Gunstar Heroes over Ikaruga or Alien Soldier, and I'd flip-flop all day if I had to pick a favorite (right now I'm saying Alien Soldier). But I think the care-free attitude of Gunstar Heroes is something I really wish Treasure would cultivate. I think their games generally feel overdesigned, like they've smoothed out the rough edges but rubbed off some of the nougat center with it. Sometimes the things that aren't perfect are what lend games their dynamic energy, and Treasure games often feel refined to the point of tedium. I think Gunstar, Ikaruga, and Alien Soldier are very good games, but they're ones that really don't get my blood pumping. With Gunstar, though, I feel like there's something there, some rough edge that gives it at least a little bit of spark.

Also, every run-n-gun looks shabby next to Metal Slug 3, imo

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah, there is definitely a visceral thrill in Gunstar Heroes, just being able to pick up enemies and throw them at other enemies, not to mention all the fire power and crazy looking giant bosses. I just don't find it quite as compelling or exciting as say, Contra or Makaimura.

I haven't finished Radiant yet, but so far I'm liking it, though I'm still not sure how to feel about the scoring. I think the attacks and boss patterns feel really fresh and fun, and the emphasis on environments makes it feel a bit more visceral in some ways then other bullet hell shooters. I think the actual bullet dodging is more akin to more traditional games, with the actual patterns being easy enough for most people to be able to complete with a little practice, but still tricky enough to make more skilled players mess up every now and then.

I'm not really a fan of blatant memorization though, so I'm sure my enjoyment of the game might be hurt a bit when I get to the point where you have to heavily chain just to stay alive. Otherwise so far I can only blame myself when I die at most of the bosses I've seen so far.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think Special World nailed it on the head, from the relatively little I've played.

On the GBA, both Gunstar Super Heroes and Astro Boy were fantastic. I might even go back to them someday to try and work on highscores.

For Radiant Silvergun, I can't say I played much or at a high level of competency, but it had the problem of feeling dull and slow-moving. I didn't mind the idea of what they were aiming for, but I also have to admit I'll take button mashing over holding various combinations of buttons at a time, which is tiring (especially since you're not moving a muscle or feeling any blood pumping when you're just holding a button).

[EmperorIng]

For what it's worth, I think my favorite Treasure games are Dynamite Headdy, Guardian Heroes, and probably Sin and Punishment, which all have their fair share of rough edges.

Ikaruga is expertly designed, but sometimes the chaining is aggravating, and if you are not playing for chain the game can get a bit simplistic.
I mean, it almost made my ballot in this year's 25, if that means anything.

[Special World]

Only sometimes?

And I forgot about Sin and Punishment 2 (never played the first). That game has some fantastic levels and just a ton of stuff to shoot. I never got around to finishing it though, I should really go back and do that.

[Zaarock]

For Radiant Silvergun, I can't say I played much or at a high level of competency, but it had the problem of feeling dull and slow-moving. I didn't mind the idea of what they were aiming for, but I also have to admit I'll take button mashing over holding various combinations of buttons at a time, which is tiring (especially since you're not moving a muscle or feeling any blood pumping when you're just holding a button).

It has pacing issues I agree, the game only starts picking up in pace at the end of 3C(5-6 mins in? but then again pretty much anyone can reach that) and hits its highest point in 5A. The ship speed is slow indeed but I think the point of that is the fact that you have an array of attacks that control the screen very easily, getting into position to be on the offensive never takes long because you can attack in all directions.

Much more of a "shooting" than a dodging game in a lot of respects. The most fun from learning in the game comes from learning to use all the weapons well (sort of like run&guns like gunstar heroes in this case, multiple weapon systems aren't explored enough in shmups) The sword is a lot of fun to use IMO, Haven't played Alltynex 2nd yet but this is the best implementation of a sword I've seen because of how versatile it's use is.

Not just holding the attack buttons is rewarded in a lot of the weapon bonuses (like not missing any shots with vulcan or spread, doing low damage with search laser). If you're not playing the PCB you can map extra buttons of course. I was reluctant at first too but a seperate sword button is great, I can do it consistently with three buttons but it's just not comfortable.

Only sometimes?

Yeah, when you fail (your own expectations) Half-joking though, going to give Ikaruga some more time now that I 1ccd RS. Never liked it too much but perhaps it'll grow on me more once I learn stage 4 and whatnot.

[MauJustice]

2 things I don't want in my shmups...chaining and platforming