RetroN 5 to sport 720p HDMI, 9 system support

[HDgaming42]

Plays NES (+famicom), SNES (+Super Famicom), Genesis (+Mega Drive) and Gameboy Advance (+GB, GBC).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GAk0HWCZH8

aspect ratio massacre incoming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... ZH8#t=286s

http://slashdot.org/topic/cloud/retron- ... -consoles/

http://technabob.com/blog/2013/03/23/hyperkin-retron-5/


Not sure I can take them seriously with quotes like:

When [the games] were programmed originally, there was a space in between each pixel,” Lee explained. “But a modern television does not recognize that space and will attempt to fill it in with surrounding colors, which is why it’s actually blurry compared to playing it on an old-school CRT [Cathode ray tube]. What we’ve done is we’ve gone back and we’ve put that space back into it. You can actually identify each and every pixel—it comes out looking like high definition.

they left space between pixels. gotcha.

The boxy aspect ratio of old-school games results in black bars on the sides of a wide-screen display. Hyperkin is considering ways of filling that space, either with game data, or to stretch the picture by showing stuff that’s already passed by the screen.

ugh

I would love to see this thing be awesome...what do you think the odds are of being awesome?

Rumored at < $100

[moh]

HDMI alone is pretty intriguing, hope this turns out well, but I doubt it.

[HDgaming42]

Start demanding 480p output right now! Then perhaps we won't have to deal with their idea of "good scaling".

[Fudoh]

oh well, at this price point I won't complain - although I can think of so many levels where this can (and will) go wrong.

Little bit excited about the GBA functionality though - shouldn't be too hard to achieve better results than through a Cube+GBA player.

Did they mention a release date ?

[rolins]

If only it had TG16 support I might consider buying one.

[Seraphic]

The save-state and in-game overclocking (for games like Star Fox SNES) are both really nice features.

Fedoh, in the video they said most likely some time around June for release.

[Fudoh]

The save-state and in-game overclocking (for games like Star Fox SNES)

not sure what you mean by that. Wouldn't Starfox require an overclocking of the SFX chip on the cart itself ? I don't see how overclocking the CPU would help the game.

[blizzz]

Is this device a generic emulator that just takes the game data directly from the cartridges or did they remodel the old architectures? If it just emulates the games on a ARM (or x86) CPU it would be no problem to overclock SNES games.

I've I read about an overclocked (original) SNES a while ago, but I think that didn't work too well.

[shmuppyLove]

“8-bit games sound 8-bit because of technology limitations, not because they were actually supposed to sound that way,” Lee said.

[lettuce]

Hope theres an option to add scanlines??

How good was the RetroN 4?

[Krakko]

Hope theres an option to add scanlines??

How good was the RetroN 4?

This is the Retron 4. They changed it to Retron 5 because they added the famicom slot.

Retron 3 was only slightly better than most clone consoles. Not very good.

[Zapf]

Aren't those other arm based clones Real Bad (some of the genesis ones and portable genesis system)

[panzeroceania]

not necessarily terrible for gaming, just terrible compared to an ACTUAL console. Personally I don't usually use anything other than the Model 1 of a system, and certainly never a clone, they're just never as good as the original hardware, and if I want to use an emulator there are more accurate ones available on PC, you can even use an SNES USB controller and hook your PC to your main TV.

much better results than a device like this. Still it's interesting.

I would love to see someone make an actual replica of a console with all the original chips, no ARM, no emulation, but I suspect most people wouldn't want to pay what it would cost to make.

[lettuce]

Now add RGB output on it and we might have something

[Smashbro29]

One word: Eh...

[Ed Oscuro]

"space between the pixels" = dumbed-down talk for "this is what happens when you find a stranger in the alps" er I mean scanlines

In a sense it's true because the 240p signal is not using all the space on the set - instead of an interlaced signal, the signal is updated in the same place, and where the second group of fields would be placed normally (creating the illusion of a constantly updated full screen), there's the "scanline" (which is kind of a misnomer when you think about it, because it's really a "line skipped by the scan").

About the "stuff that's already passed by the screen," unless they want to deal with some nasty (possibly misleading, i.e. if you expect collision or hit detection on "phantoms") artifacts resulting from awkward buffering of phantoms past the image edge, it sounds like it might just be tweaked overscan settings. On the NES (and some other systems) most of this should just be filled with garbage, although as we all know there are many times when various consoles have different (and wrong) overscan settings, leading to parts of the image being cropped away.

Edit: Actually, I think the much more interesting idea is using the empty space of an HDTV image to display "other data." It would be interesting to be able to select regions of data and display them at the sides of the screen, and might let players possibly break down some psuedo-random sequences, for example.

I wish they would explain what they're thinking in the normal sense instead of giving barely comprehensible psuedo-jargon but eh whatcha gonna do? Certainly not take potshots based on ignorance, I would hope.

Now add RGB output on it and we might have something

Does the Framemeister have RGB output? No...that is mistaking the purpose of this console, which is to give a system that's free of an external upscaler for use on modern sets. Basically they don't want money which is better spent (in most cases) on original systems anyways. However I do wonder if it wouldn't have been too expensive to implement it...if this thing is thoroughly digital in design, it might be difficult to use the traditional analog approach to outputting RGB, but one can hope.

[lettuce]

Now add RGB output on it and we might have something

Does the Framemeister have RGB output? No...that is mistaking the purpose of this console, which is to give a system that's free of an external upscaler for use on modern sets. Basically they don't want money which is better spent (in most cases) on original systems anyways. However I do wonder if it wouldn't have been too expensive to implement it...if this thing is thoroughly digital in design, it might be difficult to use the traditional analog approach to outputting RGB, but one can hope.

When did I ever mention the Framemeister??

I was referring to a RGB output so we might be able to hook the RetroN up to a CRT and put it in 240p mode. So I guess I was hoping for a RGB output and a 240p display mode on the RetroN......which will probably never happen

[kamiboy]

This is prolly just another box deriven by linux in the background. Meaning that if able people cared to they could hack it in no time and then start fixing the software so it works more to their liking.

That is a big if though.

[BitFaced]

Needs N64 and maybe TurboGrafx-16.

[Joelepain]

In a sense it's true because the 240p signal is not using all the space on the set - instead of an interlaced signal, the signal is updated in the same place, and where the second group of fields would be placed normally (creating the illusion of a constantly updated full screen), there's the "scanline" (which is kind of a misnomer when you think about it, because it's really a "line skipped by the scan").

Actually it's not a misnomer and that's where a lot of people are mistaken.
What it is being called "scanlines" is not the black lines, but in fact it's the illuminated ones, ie "a line of a raster scanning system" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scan_line
The black gaps between scanlines are just a side effect of the fact that in 240p, there's not enough scanlines and/or their thickness is not enough to fill the surface of the screen. And to my knowledge these black lines don't have an official name.

And this mistake have for consequence that a lot of "scanlines emulation" just look bad because people who program them think that you just have to put black lines between each color lines and that's it.

The only good looking scan lines emulation to my opinion are hlsl mame, but it's quite difficult to configure, or the CRT openGL shader on the bsnes/higan/retroarch forum.


Getting back to the topic, I don't understand the benefits of using these kind of "universal retro adapter" instead of an average "not 20 years old" computer with a bunch of emulators (especially versatile one like mess, mame, retroarch, etc...)

[Ed Oscuro]

When did I ever mention the Framemeister??

The point is that this is intended for the same group. Again, it's not even certain that it will be straightforward to get RGB out - of course it would be nice to have, obviously.

Actually it's not a misnomer and that's where a lot of people are mistaken.
What it is being called "scanlines" is not the black lines, but in fact it's the illuminated ones, ie "a line of a raster scanning system" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scan_line

Yes, that's what I said, but when people talk about "adding scanlines" (for example, using a scanline mode with an XRGB) they mean adding the dark line.

Getting back to the topic, I don't understand the benefits of using these kind of "universal retro adapter" instead of an average "not 20 years old" computer with a bunch of emulators (especially versatile one like mess, mame, retroarch, etc...)

Well, I guess this doesn't target you either.

[Joelepain]

Yes, that's what I said, but when people talk about "adding scanlines" (for example, using a scanline mode with an XRGB) they mean adding the dark line.

Yes I saw that you knew, but the way you said it (and the way most people describe it) seems the wrong way.
And what I say is that the approach of "adding dark line" is in my opinion the wrong way. For example, the CRT shader for retroarch/bsnes seems to act more like "how do I display 240 colored lines (with black lines between them) in a 1920x1080/(put you display resolution here) matrix of pixels. And believe me I understand nothing of the math inside this little piece of text file, but I think it looks really good.
The problem is that it seems to require quite a lot of compute power.

Well, I guess this doesn't target you either.

I didn't state it well. In fact is was more a question.
From what I saw from other "hardware emulator" (for example the most recent neo geo X), they seem to have quite a lot of issues with them (like emulation accuracy, wrong aspect ratios etc), and you can at least have the same thing or better with an average pc and emulators. And nowadays most of people have an average pc.
So is there any advantages of using these kind of retro adapters ?

[Fudoh]

the CRT shader for retroarch/bsnes seems to act more like "how do I display 240 colored lines (with black lines between them) in a 1920x1080/(put you display resolution here) matrix of pixels. And believe me I understand nothing of the math inside this little piece of text file, but I think it looks really good.

do you have a screenshot ? I just googled and all the results look very much like your everday-scaline emulation, nothing special I can see.

[Joelepain]

Here are some screen shots I made myself, of how I like the shader.






You can customize the curvature, the tilt, the corner smooth, and what they call the "halation" (the bloom effect of old CRT).
I personaly think it's a bit better than mame hlsl, without the pain of configuration of hlsl.
It should automatically adapt to the screen resolution (whereas mame hlsl is dependant of input and outpout resolution, that's why it's a pain to configure). But it was originally created for bsnes so you should expect better result with snes games.
With Retroarch it's possible to combine it with and integer scale shader, so the scanlines are better aligned with the real pixel of the lcd.
And you should see screenshots 100% zoomed because what I understand is that it rely a lot on the subpixels of our lcd to look great.

What I find could be interesting is if someone could make a comparison between these kind of shaders, hlsl, and other crt looking emulator like xrgb and these kind of stuff.

[lettuce]

Here are some screen shots I made myself, of how I like the shader.

Are they retroarch shaders?

[kamiboy]

From what I saw from other "hardware emulator" (for example the most recent neo geo X), they seem to have quite a lot of issues with them (like emulation accuracy, wrong aspect ratios etc), and you can at least have the same thing or better with an average pc and emulators. And nowadays most of people have an average pc.
So is there any advantages of using these kind of retro adapters ?

Since this unit runs off of actual vintage hardware such as game carts and works with original controllers it offers a more authentic feeling experience than you get from the sterile all software approach of a computer.

Maybe it is my bias as a console gamer coming through, but there is something about dealing with computers that saps away all joy and enthusiasm for gaming.

[Ed Oscuro]

I didn't state it well. In fact is was more a question.
From what I saw from other "hardware emulator" (for example the most recent neo geo X), they seem to have quite a lot of issues with them (like emulation accuracy, wrong aspect ratios etc), and you can at least have the same thing or better with an average pc and emulators. And nowadays most of people have an average pc.
So is there any advantages of using these kind of retro adapters ?

If the RetroN has compatibility on par with the actual systems (we'll have to see, but I would be surprised if it does), and uses authentic analogues of the original hardware (i.e. actual implementations of a 68000 CPU and so on) and is cycle-accurate and does not add lag, then in theory it should be as good as the real thing. Emulators and the systems they run on have many points of slight divergence from the "real thing," from different display technology (usually the case these days) to input lag, to oftentimes inaccurate emulation.

Of course, going by "feel," nothing really matches playing the original on original hardware, in most cases. The one major exception I make is the N64, which in its original incarnation is often terrible on my eyes and gives me headaches even in emulation on a LCD screen. There is unfortunately no obvious and completely straightforward way of fixing framerate issues on all N64 games; some games seem to take overclocking well, while others fail. Of course the main emulators for N64 have many weak points.

"RetroN" sounds like somebody at AMD's marketing department changed jobs...(rhymes with "moron")

[Joelepain]

So basically what you're saying guys is that nowadays FPGAs are advanced enough to emulate cycle accurate implementation of these consoles hardware.
That should require a hell of an FPGA.
And under 100$ i'm a bit sceptical, when you see the guys who are making everdrive and stuff like that, who charge 100$ and more for a fpga which basically just translate a SD card bus into a game card bus, and emulate parts of security functions (because most of them still need the original security chip of these consoles).
The only advantage I see is the input lag which should be better than on computer.
If this thing is just an emulator running on an arm, then go buy a Vita and wait for homebrews ..........

kamiboy I understand your point of view, the plug and play thing that you don't get with a computer. But it's just a matter of phylosophy.

Are they retroarch shaders?

They're not really "retroarch shaders" strictly speaking. They are Direct3D/OpenGL shaders that you can find here https://gitorious.org/bsnes/xml-shaders ... er/shaders
I know they work with Higan (bsnes), snes9x, retroarch. Maybe other emulators are compatible but I am not aware.
My screenshots were taken with retroarch quite a while ago.
And the shader is not in a definitive state. The authors still want feedback from users to make it better.

[trap15]

So basically what you're saying guys is that nowadays FPGAs are advanced enough to emulate cycle accurate implementation of these consoles hardware.
That should require a hell of an FPGA.

No, they're saying precisely the opposite. There's no way all of these emulators are even nearly cycle accurate. Most likely, they're just emulated in software on an embedded ARM platform. Which is what X-in-1 MAME bootleggers have been doing for the past... 10 years now?

[Ed Oscuro]

One other thing that could be mentioned is that one can talk about a system being "cycle accurate," but that is no guarantee of actual usable accuracy. A cycle-accurate emulator can routinely run into situations where it is not even remotely accurate to the original thing.

For example, take emulation of a simple program that depends on input lag - if the original program registers an input, it displays a "SUCCESS!" sign and clotheslines the enemy (as Bruce Not-Willis runs down a hallway), but if the input comes too late, then you get smashed and die. So then we have designed an emulator that, in the situations where it runs without external inputs, it is always accurate to the real thing. With software testing we determined that it will react to the right inputs, at the right point in the program, in the right way. However, then we will throw everything out of whack if the input always arrives at the wrong time. That emulator is still cycle-accurate, it's just not implemented in an environment where it can meet SUCCESS! If you could, you would change the input timing so that it works. Old games and systems already deal with one kind of problem - signals showing up too early, or slightly too late - with buffering, wait periods, and so on. But they don't deal well (nor could they) with situations where the input is only received a frame or two after the action is supposed to have taken place.

That is one of the areas where I am most worried about the RetroN. The other is this: Even assuming the digital logic is all great and they have even found some kind of reasonable (not likely, considering how many CPU cycles it can eat up in SNES emulators, for example) replacement for analog components of old systems, they are looking at one-upping every other clone system manufacturer, many of who had the advantage of working with parts more or less identical to the originals in the real systems. Another possibility is that they have implemented only the digital logic on digital logic (i.e. CPU on a modern version of the CPU, which may have changes compared to the original, or in emulation, or on a FPGA) and analog components are generated in the analog way (seems unlikely since their target output appears to be digital only, or certainly it could be). Then we have a potential super-convoluted design with many different components on the same board and interfering with each other.

FPGAs sure are interesting but they are designed to be general. FPGA users are as likely to be creating neural networks as attempting emulation of other chips, and as they say - jack of all trades, master of none.

I am sure that with the right design and components it would be possible to implement a real replacement for old systems, but the "easiest" way, using updated and freshly-made components, is also too expensive for a fly-by-night operation. Not only are they unlikely to have access or rights to use any plans for ideal native hardware, they also aren't investing enough money (because there's not enough money being thrown at this problem) to have new chips made in fabrication plants like the other chips, at least not for any price they could afford. I suppose you could go the hobbyist route and mix and match old and new parts but that's also not going to work very well for a serious commercial project.

I had a funny thought after thinking about the design of the system: In comparison to the original, it looks like the cheap cel-shaded version of "Land of Confusion" by Disturbed, next to the original by Genesis.