DOS games, how do you play them ?

[akumajo]

Hello,

As far I know, resolutions for DOS games can be CGA/EGA/VGA/VESA, so some games *need* scanlines .

Say me, how are you playing these old games in 2013 ?

Thanks.

[AntiFritz]

The poll doesn't seem to work (as always?), but I would have voted for dosbox. I don't play dos games often but when I do its either that or some other kinda of emulation or the like (scummvm etc).

[blizzz]

I use ScummVM if possible and for the few other games DosBox with the TV scanline filter.

[Nana]

DOSbox here as well. It works fine for the most part, but I've had speed issues with a couple of games. Have the polls on these forums EVER worked?

[Ed Oscuro]

VGA PC games were always progressive but even low-rez games didn't look like 240p (for example) with heavy scanlines.

Have the polls on these forums EVER worked?

Yes

[Thomago]

VGA PC games were always progressive but even low-rez games didn't look like 240p (for example) with heavy scanlines.

Indeed. The only PC games that had scanlines were the ones with "fake" SVGA videos like Wing Commander 4 or Rebel Aussault 2.

I play DOS games on an old PC (well ... relatively old, it's an Pentium III with 1000 Mhz, 512 MB RAM and a fast DirectX 8 graphics card), if possible under Windows (98 SE that is), if necessary under DOS.
I use a Samsung SyncMaster 2494HM as monitor. Btw it's a bless to use LCD monitors with DOS games, otherwise you would be stuck with just 60 Hz from a CRT ... I think I would get sick of that today.

I tried DOSbox but I dislike it since its emulation attempts aren't very truthful. But it's a nice last resort for demanding games I can't get to run otherwise.

[Crafty+Mech]

My favorite DOS game of old was Ultima IV, I think it was DosBox that I played it with a few years ago and the game play seemed to be well emulated. Sadly I don't have a PC anymore.

And Kings Quest on and old DOS 16 color CGA computer, you've got to love those low res graphics and limited palette! I wish Arcade Standard Resolution was known by another acronym than CGA.. both modes are 15k, but DOS CGA used a TTL signal instead of analog, and supported 320x200 instead of 320x240. Everytime I hear "CGA" my first thought is DOS, and I have to catch myself.

[trap15]

I've never heard arcade resolutions be referred to as CGA...

Besides, referring to arcade res as CGA is patently wrong since CGA stands for Color Graphics Adapter. As in, it's specifically a PC/DOS thing.

[Fudoh]

MCGA is correct for the early 90s DOS games running at 320x200 with 256 colors.

CGA technically refers to the old post-Hercules and pre-EGA graphics cards with only 4 colors at once supported.

The reason why the term CGA has been adopted for the arcade PCB signals is that both are 15khz progressive signals.

[akumajo]

For those using DosBox, ScummVM, what is wrong with these emulators ?
I will try Freedos (or W98?) + XRGB Mini, for fun ... .

[Fudoh]

With a LCD you can't run DosBox v-locked at 70Hz as the real DOS game would. Otherwise I think it's pretty good. XRGB plus any TV set will also have a problem with the 70Hz output.

[akumajo]

70hz ? You mean DOS games play at 70hz ? So what can be done ?

[blizzz]

70hz ? You mean DOS games play at 70hz ? So what can be done ?

The same thing as with all retro games. You either need a display that can show the original framerate (CRT monitor), change the speed of the game to 60Hz or drop/insert frames. Dropping frames is no big problem, but you might notice it while scrolling or with flashing objects.

[akumajo]

Yes but I refuse to play on a small CRT, something like an Emotia or Mimo 2 should do the job ?

[Fudoh]

sure, but I would not neccessarily recommend to overlay the result with scanlines. You would get 240 lines laid over 200 source lines and as stated above, 31khz VGA didn't show typical scanlines anyway.

[akumajo]

Eheh, why this have to be so unfriendly .

[Ed Oscuro]

I think I first saw arcade resolutions called CGA here a year or two ago...never understood it either.

About what's "wrong" with DOSbox, well, check out its "cycles" terminology, not very intuitive, and while it is convenient to slide them up and down, it could break some programs - it's also hard to immediately type in the equivalent speed of a CPU you know would provide the right result (of course it makes some sense they would do it this way, because clock speed can be misleading). But in practice it seems to work pretty well with many programs, although it can break them to change the cycle allocation when a program is running, and often in subtle ways you don't detect right away.

[akumajo]

Well this 70Hz is new to me so I'm doing some searchs.

DOS Display Standards
MDA (18.432 kHz) and Hercules (18.425 kHz) : 50 Hz (720 × 350)
CGA (15 kHz) : 60 Hz (640 × 200, 320 × 200)
EGA (15 kHZ or 21.8 kHz ?) : 60 Hz (640 × 350, more ? )
VGA (31 kHz) aka Mode X : 70 Hz for 350 and 400 line modes (including double-scanned 200 Line modes), and 60 Hz for 480 line modes.

So I guess that most games used Mode X ? ...

Please correct me if I'm wrong .

[akumajo]

sure, but I would not neccessarily recommend to overlay the result with scanlines. You would get 240 lines laid over 200 source lines and as stated above, 31khz VGA didn't show typical scanlines anyway.

so, for the better result (after a proper CRT) we must : convert VGA 31 kHz (70 hz) to something, upscaling and voila ?

Emotia (convert those VGA resolution @ 70 hz to 240p) > insert your favorite upscaler (Upscaling to 480p or better) and as you said no scanlines...

Does modern video cards can output such resolutions ? (setup idea is : modern pc > emotia > upscaler > display).

[Ed Oscuro]

Windows 7's default minimum resolution is 800x600. You need a custom driver or program (like Powerstrip) to go lower.

Yeah, there might be hacked .INFs for video cards, I think I've read of such things for use outputting arcade resolutions from a regular PC graphics card (for use on an arcade monitor).

[blizzz]

Emotia (convert those VGA resolution @ 70 hz to 240p) > insert your favorite upscaler (Upscaling to 480p or better) and as you said no scanlines...

Does modern video cards can output such resolutions ? (setup idea is : modern pc > emotia > upscaler > display).

How would that increase the video quality? In the end you're using a monitor that can only display 60Hz no matter what you do.

[Crafty+Mech]

Windows 7's default minimum resolution is 800x600. You need a custom driver or program (like Powerstrip) to go lower.

Yeah, there might be hacked .INFs for video cards, I think I've read of such things for use outputting arcade resolutions from a regular PC graphics card (for use on an arcade monitor).

You can switch to 640x480 in Windows 7 by Control Panel->Display Properties->Advanced->Adapter->List All Modes

60hz, 70hz, and 75hz are available refresh rates. No custom drivers/software required.

[Fudoh]

so, for the better result (after a proper CRT) we must : convert VGA 31 kHz (70 hz) to something, upscaling and voila ?

which you can do in one step by using a XPC-4.

If you want to use any other upscaler, you need a scan converter first.

[Ed Oscuro]

Windows 7's default minimum resolution is 800x600. You need a custom driver or program (like Powerstrip) to go lower.

Yeah, there might be hacked .INFs for video cards, I think I've read of such things for use outputting arcade resolutions from a regular PC graphics card (for use on an arcade monitor).

You can switch to 640x480 in Windows 7 by Control Panel->Display Properties->Advanced->Adapter->List All Modes

60hz, 70hz, and 75hz are available refresh rates. No custom drivers/software required.

That's what I get from quoting some random Microsoft Technetter. Well, surely no lower than 640x480 (there for compatibility, it was the "default" mode for a long time) though.

[akumajo]

Emotia (convert those VGA resolution @ 70 hz to 240p) > insert your favorite upscaler (Upscaling to 480p or better) and as you said no scanlines...

Does modern video cards can output such resolutions ? (setup idea is : modern pc > emotia > upscaler > display).

How would that increase the video quality? In the end you're using a monitor that can only display 60Hz no matter what you do.

I try to find a method to play on a modern display without emulator, best setup is and will ever be with a CRT monitor.

[akumajo]

so, for the better result (after a proper CRT) we must : convert VGA 31 kHz (70 hz) to something, upscaling and voila ?

which you can do in one step by using a XPC-4.

If you want to use any other upscaler, you need a scan converter first.

yeah, XPC-4 is a good solution and a high price too . Will try Emotia + XRGB Mini. Which DOS game to try as a benchmark ? DOOM ?

[Thomago]

I try to find a method to play on a modern display without emulator, best setup is and will ever be with a CRT monitor.

I'd like to disagree. My beformentioned LCD display takes every DOS display mode I threw at him so far and scales it up to something that's comparable to what the XRGB mini does with 240p games. Plus it get's rid of the nausea-inducing low refresh rates.
Other LCD displays most likely give comparable scaling results.

I'd NEVER go to a CRT monitor for DOS games, NEVER.

[ZellSF]

Would a 144hz display be better for DOSBox / is DOSBox even capable of using non-60/70hz resolutions?

Personally I mostly play Windows ports of games, there's a LOT of DOS games that either had Windows versions or got later ports in some ways by fans (source ports, scummvm and the like). DOSBox if that's not a possibility.

[Fudoh]

A 144Hz display is never a good idea, because those are TN panels with crappy colors and bad viewing angles...

All LCDs will accept the 70Hz from DOS, but hardly any will display them natively without an internal framerate conversion.

[ZellSF]

A 144Hz display is never a good idea, because those are TN panels with crappy colors and bad viewing angles...

Yes those are disadvantages I'm very well aware of. The advantages still makes it very, very tempting.