STG Weekly #16: Imperishable Night

[Aquas]

We had some brief discussion during the chat of last week's STGW (Guwange) about the next Touhou episode. We are thinking about PCB right now but I've heard some mixed opinions on how well it will work out for an episode, when considering higher level play.

My question is what do people want to see next for Touhou on STGW? Specifically which Touhou and why it's a good choice to talk about, and perhaps moreso, a good choice to watch, considering that we did UFO last time.

If you're feeling helpful, you can even include a link to a high quality replay we could use, and volunteer yourself or others for commentary.

Suffice to say, the STGW Touhou episode on UFO received the most views of all of our episodes. So, naturally I think we should cover the Touhou games every now and then. Maybe every 10 episodes or something. We'll probably look at this next TH episode happening in a month-ish. Giving us plenty of time to decide and prepare for something cool and informative. Thanks and looking forward to hear suggestions.

Also, expect STGW topics to come ahead of time more often to gauge interest in certain games and help prepare something adequate. I feel like with more input from the community, we'll be hitting the "sweet spots" more often and have a better chance of interesting others in the genre as well.

[trap15]

I've heard Ten Desires is all about bombing and suiciding, so I'd enjoy seeing some of that

[Giest118]

In terms of scoring mechanics, my personal favorite Touhou is 8, Imperishable Night. I like 7 more overall though. In either case, a high-level video will involve certifiable shitloads of bullet grazing.

[RNGmaster]

The new Imperishable Night WR (lemme find the link) is an amazing play, and IN is one of the better games in the series overall. I'm not sure either Naut or I are qualified to talk about it, though. Nereid maybe?

Mountain of Faith would be a cool run to watch for anyone who has an aversion to graze-milking, but in my experience there aren't as many "wow" moments or as much to comment on as, say, IN/SA/UFO.

[chum]

I've heard Ten Desires is all about bombing and suiciding, so I'd enjoy seeing some of that

HRtP, LLS, EoSD, SA, and GFW as well. Although 3 of those games actually require some skillful technique while TD hardly does...

These are the games I think I'd enjoy the most to watch an episode of:

Phantasmagoria of Dim.Dream, because the game is really manic and scoring high in it is crazy, + It's overlooked by fans and detractors alike

Imperishable Night with Youmu, because Youmu scoring is unarguably one of the highest points in the series, and anyone (with a brain) can appreciate the techniques on display

Embodiment of Scarlet Devil because the Lunatic record run is totally bonkers

Great Fairy Wars because I'm biased as hell, It's fast-paced and short (so there's time to show more than just one route) the mechanic is interesting, and there's lots of mil... I mean 'supergrazing'

I love PCB but unless you find someone who is really fit for commentating it, I don't think it would work out.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'd vote for Eosd. I find it the most enjoyable of the windows games prior to Subterranean Animism. It's also the first Windows Touhou, and has the best music and aesthetic (IMO).

[n0rtygames]

I'd actually like to see Imperishable Night as it's basically the one I'm playing when I go in to Touhou mode..:0)

[Naut]

PCB/IN/SA would probably be best. I would highly recommend against EoSD and TD, both of which are absolutely garbage for watching (EoSD is significantly better for playing, TD is just shit all around). PCB is highly technical and a great watch, but I'd say you'd probably have a hard time finding somebody with enough knowledge of the game to really commentate it well, most of the people I can think of probably aren't interested in commentating unfortunately. IN would be a similar issue, while not as highly technical as PCB, I think the people fit to commentate it probably won't (they're welcome to prove me wrong! You know who you are, butts).

I'd recommend SA, since it's a really entertaining watch and fairly technical in it's own way but still easy to understand. I'd be happy to commentate it as well, if you end up choosing it (I promise to be better than last time, I could dump some lame excuses on why I was pretty boring during the UFO episode but it's not important, I can and will definitely do better :V).

GFW would be an interesting choice, it's not particularly bad and the system is fairly interesting at first glance, but it's very much the same thing over and over and over. Lots of dumb milking and stuff. You'd also run out of things to talk about quickly since it has pretty much no depth, making the abundance of milking that much more boring.

And while we're going through all the games... PoFV isn't a horrible choice either, but I think a live run would be much more entertaining... And unless you're doing a Cirno mirror, it wouldn't last very long. Maybe something like a best of three live match where the players choose different characters each time. But it's really a stretch. I'd recommend PCB/IN/SA before this.

Don't even talk about the PC98 games. Just don't even.

Edit: Oh yeah, MoF would also be pretty decent I suppose. It can get a bit technical but still follows pretty simple rules. I personally don't think it's as nice of a watch as the other three games I mentioned, but I guess I can't find anything particularly wrong with it. I could also commentate this if you need somebody.

[DrInfy]

My vote for IN. I'm not too excited about SA Lunatic runs where most of the action is just bombing and suiciding (TD is probably even worse).

[Rex Cavalier]

Phantasmagoria of Dim.Dream, because the game is really manic and scoring high in it is crazy, + It's overlooked by fans and detractors alike

Seconding this as well as other PC98 games.

[Keith]

(and so, all the Touhou fans shall crawl out of the woodwork)

If by some freak chance PC-98 gets attention, PoDD (delicious versus danmaku) or LLS would get my vote. I'm curious how much high level footage exists for those games.

In the more likely event that it's easier to cover a Windows-based game, IN gets my vote. Loads of characters, a mode where you can practice specific boss patterns (as well as bonus unlockable patterns), enjoyable atmosphere, and lasers, lots of lasers.

[trap15]

To be more reasonable, I would prefer one of the PC98 games as well (Mystic Square plz?).

[AntiFritz]

Highly Responsive to Prayers

Yeah, I know it isn't really a shmup

[Hagane]

IN with Youmu or SA would be my picks.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

SA could be more interesting if we watched something like MarisaC, ReimuC, or MarisaB than ReimuA.

MarisaC and ReimuC bombs aren't too great for scoring, and IIRC MarisaB has a pretty high score as well.


But IN is probably the better choice over EoSD/SA because you have to do your milks without dying or bombing, while in EoSD/SA you bomb and die for grazes.


Either of those 3 would be fun to watch.

[Cactu]

EoSD: Because I like it, and the WR has lots of silly things in it.
IN: This game is actually good and probably the best option considering PCB would be impossible to explain during the run without someone extremely experienced.

[O. Van Bruce]

Casting my vote for Imperishable Night. Just because.

if not, the PCB.

[jigenbakuda]

Subterranean Animism is my vote. Its my favorite Touhou game and in my opinion has the best music. Unlike mountain of faith you do not have a +1 level cushion for bombs, so using bombs in SA is purely resource management since your bomb stock is your power level. And zun's drawing is better than his pre-IN days, so thats a bonus. Lets not forget SA has some really beautiful bullet patterns. Only thing touhou needs is 2p mode.

This play through has amazing resolution and is using reimu - a so its a nice way for someone new to see some basic strategies that apply to the rest of the other character's playstyle's (unlike reimu - c or marisa - b [my fav!!!!]) Also provides a link to a way to legally purchase touhou games if you want zun to drink more beer so he can program.


Regular play through
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCOYrMgnNGE

Extra Stage (SANAE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGzWWQvKJOs

[Aquas]

Imperishable Night wins!

So, here's the next question: exactly what replay should we use for this episode? And who would like to comment? Naut? Chum? Eeehhh? I understand IN has different routes and such so I leave the rest of this thread to discussion on what run/route it will be.

[CStarFlare]

To be more reasonable, I would prefer one of the PC98 games as well (Mystic Square plz?).

Mystic Square is supercool, and I wouldn't mind seeing a great replay of it. I don't know that narration would add a whole lot to it, though.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

No one that plays IN for score picks FinalA, and the stage 4 boss depends on shottype. So obviously we should go with the standard FinalB, maybe include Extra like you did with UFO. FinalB is also good because Kaguya's a better boss than Eirin, outside of Hourai Jewel which happens to be one of the worst attacks of the series.

Youmu solo is cool and what I'd suggest, but maybe one of the teams(I'd suggest Scarlet Team for that) would be better since the game is more designed around the teams. Youmu solo gets away with it fine since she gets youkai and human benefits for scoring, the other solos don't and therefore are much less scoring. But I'd highly suggest Youmu solo with Scarlet Team as a possible second choice.

[chum]

Sorry but I can't commentate IN.

The newest record is done with Youmu, but I can't find it on royalflare anymore? Anyone know the details? I still have the replay either way and could record it if necessary.

BTW, none of the PC98 touhous are interesting enough to warrant an episode except for PoDD IMO.

[Rex Cavalier]

[Seppo Hovi]

No one that plays IN for score picks FinalA, and the stage 4 boss depends on shottype. So obviously we should go with the standard FinalB, maybe include Extra like you did with UFO. FinalB is also good because Kaguya's a better boss than Eirin, outside of Hourai Jewel which happens to be one of the worst attacks of the series.

What.

First of all, Royalflare has scoreboards for FinalA as well. They're generally played less than the FinalB ones, but I wouldn't say nobody plays it. Unless you consider guys like NALIS a nobody. I guess you do.

"Which boss is better" is a rather subjective thing, but I personally find Kaguya to be one of the hardest (and horrible to get consistent at) final bosses in the series, mainly due to her having several attacks that rely on RNG (Random Number Generator, not the guy who posts here) a lot. Whereas Eirin has a more static difficulty and you can get consistent at her after some practice.

Hourai Jewel, however, is static. And it's actually a rather interesting card, having several different ways to supergraze it. It's not my favorite attack in the series, sure, but I wouldn't call it the worst attack in the series either.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I wasn't being serious when I said no one plays FinalA for score.

I'm not sure how many points are lost by picking that stage than B.

Also, doesn't Eirin have more RNG than Kaguya does?

[Seppo Hovi]

Also, doesn't Eirin have more RNG than Kaguya does?

Every boss has certain amounts of RNG. However, The more or less randomly oriented patterns Eirin has are always quite simply learnable, readable and thus dodgeable, compared to, say, Kaguya's first spell card.

[O. Van Bruce]

Picking a team rather than solo Youmu would be the best because the game is really designed to be played with a team. Just think about the familiars mechanics and how you have to plan ahead when you have to get + or - 80%.

This is a demostration stream so anything that gets really unussual at how the game is ussually played can lead to people getting a wrong impression of it.

Any team would be fine but Reimu-Yukari or Marisa-Alice are the safest choices.

Also, picking Final B or Final A will be difficult. Both have their pros and cons. Eirin ending is less flashier than Kaguya's besides not being the true ending; but Hourai Elixir is "TENSION" the spellcard... Kaguya's last words pale in comparison.

Kaguya is the real ending and her patterns are more beautiful though.

[CStarFlare]

Do a Final B full run, then append a Final A run afterwards, similar to what you've been thinking of for Extra. I haven't ever seen a Final A run (aside from my initial playthroughs of the game) so it would be neat, but Final B is by far the most common. If we're going to do a team run because it's the way it's supposed to be, then the final stage should be chosen the same way.

[Zengeku3]

Nice to hear IN being chosen. It's one of my favorite score systems in any shmup ever so looking forward to the episode.

So any idea on who can commentate it yet?

[Aquas]

Nice to hear IN being chosen. It's one of my favorite score systems in any shmup ever so looking forward to the episode.

So any idea on who can commentate it yet?

Who indeed. I see you have some no-death replays of Extra Stage, and I wouldn't mind using those. So if you'd like to join for commentary for that, Zengeku3, that would be cool.

As for the game I see there is some discussion on the routes and such... there's a lot to choose from it seems, and pros and cons... might just have to pick one. The team stuff sounds cool, but this again comes to having high quality replays. There's still time to discuss which video / route.char etc so I'll leave it open for a while yet untill we cement something.