Cyvern : Difference between Genuine and Convert ?

[WarLord]

Hi all,

I don't know if you've seen that recently (or not ? Perhaps that's an old phenomenon ?) but there are many Cyvern converted carts everywhere and honestly, I believed that I knew how to make the difference but when I search about it via Google, I see all...

I took some examples.

About Convert :

100% Convert for sure :



About Genuine :

Examples, with carts from full kits, carts where the owner seems to be sure that he has a genuine one, some I don't know (as you can see, the both first one from the full kits are exactly the same as the first convert) :




How to make the difference without opening the cart ? The first converted cart in photo is often sold with a modded bios mobo but that's not enough because if I want to buy only the cart ?
I can buy a converted cart without the modded mobo...
Why some white carts, why some black carts ? About region ?

Have the impression the green and the red colors of the label are clearer on the originals than on the converts, as for the ST-V carts.

Is someone 100% sure to have got an original one in this place ?

PS/ I don't know if I can take pics from Google like that to make a thread, so I'd like to thank the differents owners for their contributions, even if I didn't asked them before.

[Ed Oscuro]

PS/ I don't know if I can take pics from Google like that to make a thread, so I'd like to thank the differents owners for their contribution, even if I didn't asked them before.

I applaud you for your thoughtful view of copyright. I am sure it's no problem, the people making the photos of known converted sets probably wanted the information out there.

Do you mean conversion of the game data cartridge shell to a game other than the original?

A curious thing about all the pictures is the lack of the serial number sticker, which is placed right at the center of the cartridge shell, on the outside face. None of these have it. I don't think motherboards have serial numbers, and matching cartridges and motherboards is excessively demanding.

[WarLord]

PS/ I don't know if I can take pics from Google like that to make a thread, so I'd like to thank the differents owners for their contribution, even if I didn't asked them before.

I applaud you for your thoughtful view of copyright. I am sure it's no problem, the people making the photos of known converted sets probably wanted the information out there.

This is a thing that seems normal to me but as you told it, I also thought that if I had a converted cart instead of a genuine, I'd like well to know it.

Do you mean conversion of the game data cartridge shell to a game other than the original?

I don't know how does the process but I guess that's the same way as for a RayForce F3 cart for example, Cyvern is really the only title wich one is rare, demanding and expensive on the Nova system, so it's a sacrifice from a cheap title/cart to reprogram it for a Cyvern you know.

A curious thing about all the pictures is the lack of the serial number sticker, which is placed right at the center of the cartridge shell, on the outside face.

Never seen it... Do you have any example please ? It interests me a lot.

[Ed Oscuro]

Maybe if you admit that Sengeki Striker is demanding and rare...not very expensive, though, at least compared to Cyvern

The sticker is just this white thing with black numerals. It sits above the vents. Nothing fancy.

[WarLord]

Maybe if you admit that Sengeki Striker is demanding and rare...not very expensive, though, at least compared to Cyvern

The sticker is just this white thing with black numerals. It sits above the vents. Nothing fancy.

Yes, I had thought to Sengeki Striker too but as you say it, if I admit that it's demanding... And rare...

Thanks for the stiker info.

[system11]

Of course we all know who is doing this - if people stopped buying the illegal bootlegs, then there wouldn't be so damn many of them floating about.

[Jeneki]

Those "conversion carts" are extremely overpriced. I can't imagine paying that much for a bootleg. Honestly, you're better off just playing in mame while you wait for a genuine one. I was patient, and it took me ~2 months to find and original in a price I was happy with.

[Ed Oscuro]

Darn, I forgot to take a picture of Striker's cartridge while I the camera set up...well, it's just a serial number sticker; I don't think it's really important. To be honest I can't tell the difference (at least from a distance) from these and the originals (besides the suspicious-looking black one), aside from the lack of that sticker.

[WarLord]

System11 and Jeneki : I completely agree with you guys, that's for this reason I wanted to make this thread because I know the most of us prefer to buy genuine items and those converted carts can deceive, it looks like so much at the genuine that it's a disturbing thing.

So, what's your opinion to make the real difference except the label colors ?
And again, this is only an hypothesis, I hope this is not the picture that makes this difference.
It's good if that's not the case and that we can rely on it, otherwise we will have each time to ask the seller that he has to open the cartridge.

Even with the label colors, we really need to pay attention with that if an opportunity to buy a Cyvern bundle presents itself because I feel this is not a very reliable criterion. (I'm still talking about the color of the label)

About the stickers who Ed Oscuro is talking about, it's strange that I've never seen some like that but it's a good thing to know that.
None of the carts from the pics have this sticker, so, that's another problem, it means that we can't rely on it too.

[system11]

Unfortunately the only way will be to open the carts. If you go by precise colours you'll mis-identify one as some will get yellowed in the sun, some may have been printed at a different manufacturer etc. The label is completely cloneable. Anyone who has owned one for the last 2 years or more probably has an original one, this is recent bootlegging to cash in on board prices.

[WarLord]

OK, no way...

[alamone]

Black carts are USA region, it does not mean it is a bootleg.
If you open up the cart (security torx if i recall), you should see
EPROMs with Kaneko labels on them. If it's a bootleg, they probably
don't bother with this step, but I haven't seen a bootleg in person.

[system11]

Black carts are USA region, it does not mean it is a bootleg.
If you open up the cart (security torx if i recall), you should see
EPROMs with Kaneko labels on them. If it's a bootleg, they probably
don't bother with this step, but I haven't seen a bootleg in person.

Does it use any soldered in or mask roms at all?

[CulDad78]

My understanding is it is simply reburning code to original kaneko marked roms. Much like a CPS2 conversion. Some use mask roms iirc, but usually it is done w/all original hardware. Thus, more conversion than boot.

[system11]

You can't if they've got labels stuck over the windows. Actually, here we go.

I just took a Gals Panic apart.

I'm assuming the boards are pretty much identical between games, which means a mixture of EPROMS with Kaneko stickers across the window which would need peeling or recreating, and mask ROMs which are surface mount. These would have to be replaced, you can't erase them. They have the game name in abbreviated form stamped on the chips - much harder to fake. Under the PCB should be another Kaneko sticker with the game serial and abbreviation on it. What's interesting is I've had this Gals Panic S Extra cart for a *very long time*, yet inside there are signs that the chips were replaced at some point. It still has the correct stickers/etc though, so this left the factory this way. It can't have just been due to repairs either because two of the unpopulated positions look like they once had chips fitted.

http://www.system11.org/temp/forumposts ... ic_sx1.jpg
http://www.system11.org/temp/forumposts ... ic_sx2.jpg

[Ed Oscuro]

Maybe an update ROM kit sent from Kaneko? But I wonder if they would have been able to do with fewer chips this way...interesting puzzle.

[WarLord]

Black carts are USA region, it does not mean it is a bootleg.
If you open up the cart (security torx if i recall), you should see
EPROMs with Kaneko labels on them. If it's a bootleg, they probably
don't bother with this step, but I haven't seen a bootleg in person.

Yeah, thanks, that's exactly that I wanted to know and that's as I thought !
The color of the cart depends of the region and the black one is for U.S.A., as usually, this code of color doesn't surprise me, "White" for japanese, "black" for U.S.A., thanks again...

About bootlegs, I don't think so that we are at this step now yet but both carts from both first pics are converted carts, 100% sure.

About the conversion itself, Eproms only needs to be burned maybe, it means that if we open up a converted cart, the stickers are probably removed to have an access to the window, right ?
Perhaps all the games of this hardware own the same program at the base and everything is played in the re-programming of the Eproms justly.
So, this differents stickers can be there, depending if they are torned or well present, to indicate what we have in our hands.

By the way, you are saying this cart is an "Extra Version" and the stickers seems to be "S2 Version", right ? Wich one was released 2 years after the "Extra Version"...

I don't know what it could be except of a repair effectively (reprogrammed cart by the factory, so you got an official converted cart ), in so far as stickers indicate a game released two years later than wich one that you owned ... If I well understood...

Ed Oscuro could be right if your game was newer than the stickers.

[cools]

Just launch www.arcadepirates.com and start listing details of all the unscrupulous people in the scene.

[system11]

I can find out the answer to that question - I have an S2 cart too. I'll check it out.

[lovecraft]

Those "conversion carts" are extremely overpriced. I can't imagine paying that much for a bootleg. Honestly, you're better off just playing in mame while you wait for a genuine one. I was patient, and it took me ~2 months to find and original in a price I was happy with.

I second that. Also I noticed he uses very small letters to write "conversion board" in his descriptions, while the rest is written in quite big letters.
He makes the same with some hacked Taito G-Net+RayCrisis and Aleck64 + Star Soldier rom (which he calls "Joystick version! No more need of the dedicated control!!"...

[system11]

By the way, you are saying this cart is an "Extra Version" and the stickers seems to be "S2 Version", right ? Wich one was released 2 years after the "Extra Version"...

Just checked.

The cart is Extra Version, the labels are GPS, the serial has GPS1.

Inside a S2 cart the labels are GPS2 and GS2 (mask) with GPS2 serial.

In both cases the serial sticker has a J after the first 4 characters, so we can assume that is for region, since both are Japanese carts. Note that the EPROMs only have J in the S2 cart though, so the EPROM label may not be reliable for region. Interestingly the S2 cart is different inside, it's clearly a newer design, photos:

http://www.system11.org/temp/forumposts ... ic_s21.jpg
http://www.system11.org/temp/forumposts ... ic_s22.jpg

So the fact remains, the hardest part to bootleg is getting the correct markings on the mask ROMs - that's probably the best way to check for now. I know someone who bought one of the bootlegs, I'll see if I can get him to take a photo of the insides, I'm expecting to see standard part number stampings on the mask ROMs.

The person in question making these is HD, who I banned from the forum for selling hacked goods.

[chempop]

The inside of an HD made cyvern... yes the "conversions" being sold on ebay... prepare yourselves...

[ShadowWraith]

the guy that made that really liked cyvern

[chempop]

LMFAO

[trap15]

I am literally laughing harder than I have in a long time. That's absolutely amazing.

[CulDad78]

Surprised there wasn't a potato involved in there somewhere.

[system11]

That's some quality workmanship there - at least we know it's easy to tell.

[Ed Oscuro]

I can't even solder but if I made a boot it had better look AT LEAST that awesome

actually I don't think HD can solder either.

Are the glue blobs visible through the cart vents? I don't know if the more or less populated side is front or back, but I assume it's the front.

[SharkSkin-Man]

And that thing actually worked?

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

The glue is not holding the roms in place if that is what you are thinking. They wouldn't make the connections if they were just glued down. The glue looks like a mix between holding a long running jumper wire down and the wannabe protection type seen on SVC Chaos boards. He obviously doesn't care what it looks like seeing as though it has a case over it.