Why early Stages (or whole game?) of 80' Shmups is so Hard?

[SAM]

After reading through the tread talking about first Stage in shmups... I begin to wonder why the early stages (or may be the whole game) of the 80' is so hard?

Well, the first stage is the most important level of an acrade game, since it usually decide whether the player would insert more coins and play the game again.

This especial true in games like Kyukyoku Tiger, since you normally stuck at level 1 for the first 20+ times you play, and after that you could only occationally get pass level 1... I cannot believe that this game actaully got 10 stages?!?! (Who said Truxton is the hardest?)

I really don't understand how come game of the 80' is such hard, were the game players then played much better than nowadays? If the game developers don't want players for hours using a single credit, then why are they making the games loop endlessly?

Well I guess the game design philosphy changes a bit nowadays. Game developers decided that an game should have an end, so that even the very best of the players could only play for about half a hour for a single credit (even they got no miss). But on the onther hand they did make the early stages of the games easier, so that novice players would usually able to sursive for about 6 to 10 mins (reaching Stage 2 or 3) with a single credit. (I really don't think a novice player could survice for over 3 mins for their first game of Kyukyoku Tiger at default setting.)

But this easy early stages, may not please those vertern shmupers. So recently beside having an end, some games, like Iky, MushiHimeSama, Redain DX, etc., also got harder modes to choose from right from the begining of the game.

Summary:

Early Shumps: Loop endlessly, much harder early stages

Recent Shumps: got an end, novice friendly early stages

The direction of recently development is understandable. What really puzzle me is how come those 80' shmups is so hard? I personlly won't insert another credit if I know I would be gameovered within 3 mins. I am not saying that games like Kyukyoku Tiger is not good games, It is just too costly to play it in the acrade because of it's high difficulty (you got killed too fast). I personally don't think game players of the 80' is actaully play better than nowadays.

There must be a reason why developers in the 80' make their games such hard. I think I need more background information to understand this.

The 80' is said to be the golden age of arcade games and shmups, long time members please share us some experiance here, and hopely shard some light on this good old days for the newcomers like me to grap a clearer picture.

[IlMrm]

Things about early shmups that's really annoying.

-Your character's hitbox is huge, and speed is often too slow.
-The enemies are fast and will kamikaze you.
-Your shots are not rapid(so there'll be a huge gap between shots) enough to destroy the enemies before they crash into you.

I prefer bullet hell, and a small character hitbox. With a small hitbox you can pull some stunts inside bullet hells, and look cool.

[WarpZone]

Although this isn't true for all older games, one thing to consider is that arcade hardware was distinctly superior to what you'd be able to play at home. Going to the arcades could be a very visual experience, and you might credit-feed just to see what special effects and surprises come next. So in a sense, more arcade developers could get away with games that were very hard right from the start.

Nowadays you can play every one of those games on your computer, and new arcade games get near-perfect (or perhaps even superior) ports. Gaming has shifted from the arcades to the home, and players that still go to the arcades are more likely doing it for the competitive aspect. The last thing they want is a cheap game that rewards them with cheap effects. Making a game's early levels easier is actually preferable, as it lets them make some progress before they become "hooked" and go back for more.

If you look at it that way, the declining popularity of arcades may have indirectly led to a need for higher quality arcade titles...

[DEL]

Being an 80s arcade veteran, I don't think that games like Twin Cobra and Truxton were harder than today's small hitbox manics, just different.

Some of the old ones like R-Type required a lot of memorisation, but so does Border Down.

I like both the old and new shooters & I try to insist on playing them in an arcade, like the old days.


Regs, DEL

[sffan]

'80s arcade games were extremely addictive at the time. Just the act of playing a video game was such a thrill back then, and you couldn't do it at home. Well, except for giant-pixelled crappiness.

Trying to get to the next level was also a big motivator, just to see what comes next. No continues back then, so you had to improve your skill in order to see later stages. And the games were designed so the more you played, the better you'd get, which encouraged you to keep playing. If you died in 30 seconds the first try, you might last a minute on your 2nd try...

[PC Engine Fan X!]

If you were around during the "Golden Age of Arcades" -- that would be 1980 through 1990. Shmups produced in that era were either popular or never got a sequel. For example, Seibu Kaihatsu's 1990 Raiden arcade game that got distributed by Fabtek (for the U.S. arcade market).

Let's take a quick look at an obscure Japanese Jamma arcade shmup from Data East called Darwin 4078 circa 1986...upon inserting a credit (in this case, for the Japanese arcades, it would have been a 100 yen coin as the credit) and pressing the start button, a shmupper is introduced to the first stage and is under-powered. A bunch of enemies flit by the shmupper's craft and manage to do a "kamikaze" attempt at the player..."Ka-pow" the craft explodes. Now you have to start all over again from the beginning of the stage and do everything again. On your last life once you die, you cannot continue from where you left off and must begin at the beginning of the first stage with no power-ups.

The above-mentioned summary of an mid-1980's shmup does show what the arcade game developers had to work with (as far as game level design, etc.)

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Vexorg]

I don't recall exactly where it was that I read it (I seem to recall that it came from someone who was working at Williams Pinball at the time, but I can't be sure) but at some point I read that in designing a game for the arcade, designers will generally strive to balance the difficulty so that an average player will get roughly 2-3 minutes of gameplay out of a credit. The most visible example of this philosophy will come in a fighting game like Tekken, where in single player mode someone will generally win two or three fights, then get beat on the next one. Eventually you're going to get the players who will start getting better at it and eventually start rolling scores and playing for hours, but that's an edge case, and by the time they reach that level they've probably dumped a fair number of quarters into the machine anyway.

[Dave_K.]

I don't recall exactly where it was that I read it (I seem to recall that it came from someone who was working at Williams Pinball at the time, but I can't be sure) but at some point I read that in designing a game for the arcade, designers will generally strive to balance the difficulty so that an average player will get roughly 2-3 minutes of gameplay out of a credit.

I have read this as well (probably from Eugene Jarvis). My Robotron cab has bookeeping totals so operators/owners can see how long each credit lasts (in minutes) how many extra lives were attained each credit, and so on. With this information, these operators could adjust the difficulty, starting men, and extend options to keep the game within 2-3 minutes per coin, thus ensuring a timely profit given a steady state of users. Its pure evil if you ask me.

[Vexorg]

As if they need any help to completely destroy the psyche of their players... The Williams games were really ahead of their time in a lot of ways, that being one of them. It's interesting to note that of the PCBs I own (all of which date to the mid to late nineties) only one (Raiden Fighters 2) even bothers to provide bookkeeping data.

[Marc]

I have read this as well (probably from Eugene Jarvis). My Robotron cab has bookeeping totals so operators/owners can see how long each credit lasts (in minutes) how many extra lives were attained each credit, and so on. With this information, these operators could adjust the difficulty, starting men, and extend options to keep the game within 2-3 minutes per coin, thus ensuring a timely profit given a steady state of users. Its pure evil if you ask me.

Hence cheaply-designed, cocksucking scrolling fighters that generally screw a player over no matter how skilled. Williams games could be mastered.

[gameoverDude]

Things about early shmups that's really annoying.

-Your character's hitbox is huge, and speed is often too slow.
-The enemies are fast and will kamikaze you.
-Your shots are not rapid(so there'll be a huge gap between shots) enough to destroy the enemies before they crash into you.

I prefer bullet hell, and a small character hitbox. With a small hitbox you can pull some stunts inside bullet hells, and look cool.

Most early shmups have the whole ship as your hitbox, something that's aggravating. Look at Raiden III in comparison to the older titles- the hitbox is definitely smaller.

I find Sky Shark a lot harder than Giga Wing because in SS you have fast bullets that can really catch you off guard if you blink.

Border Down requires decent memorization but you'll find a bit of flexibility in it compared to R-Type or Metal Black.

Hence cheaply-designed, cocksucking scrolling fighters that generally screw a player over no matter how skilled.

Crime Fighters US version comes to mind. There you have a ticking health meter that you add to by putting in more coins ala Gauntlet. The Japanese CF uses Double Dragon lifebars instead. Ditto the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles arcade versions- I heard something here about the rank system in TMNT arcade titles being mighty unfair.

[professor ganson]

I recently got Toaplan Shooting Battle I (thanks to Neorichieb1977), and these arcade games from the 80s just aren't playing at a very fast speed, it seems to me. I changed to Arcade Speed in the General Options menu, and it still seems to me that things are a bit sluggish. (I'm playing them on a Jap PS2.)

So are these games supposed to be hard because the bullets and enemies are fast? If so, then something must be wrong with my set-up. Or are they supposed to be hard for some other reason?

Replies much appreciated!

[Ghegs]

I recently got Toaplan Shooting Battle I (thanks to Neorichieb1977), and these arcade games from the 80s just aren't playing at a very fast speed, it seems to me. I changed to Arcade Speed in the General Options menu, and it still seems to me that things are a bit sluggish. (I'm playing them on a Jap PS2.)

So are these games supposed to be hard because the bullets and enemies are fast? If so, then something must be wrong with my set-up. Or are they supposed to be hard for some other reason?

Replies much appreciated!

Toaplan Shooting Battle is one of the PS1 games that don't run properly when played on a PS2. The games run in slow-motion. Though I think Tiger Heli seems to run normally.

[professor ganson]

Thanks, Ghegs. And Heli is the one I didn't test of the three. I'll check it later tonight.

[CMoon]

Yeah, you need a japanese psx (or chipped, boot disc does NOT work) to run toaplan shooting battle properly. IMO well worth it, but it may be a bit much to ask for those who aren't die-hard toaplan fans.

[professor ganson]

Yeah, you need a japanese psx (or chipped, boot disc does NOT work) to run toaplan shooting battle properly. IMO well worth it, but it may be a bit much to ask for those who aren't die-hard toaplan fans.

OK, so the PS X-change won't do the trick. It's a shame that importing a PS1 is so damn expensive. If I'm going to bother to import, I probably want a new one, not one that will die on me in the near future. But Play-Asia was the only place that had new ones I could find, and it looked to be about $130 shipped. I may do this sometime, but not right away.

I tried Tiger Heli on the PS2 and it worked great, and made me wish the other two were working at full speed. At some point I'll have to solve this problem.

[dave4shmups]

Most of it, IMO, has to do with the fact that, back in the early 1980's video games just didn't give you any power-ups. Sure, there was the two-ship option in Galaga, but that was about it. Other then extra lives earned after a certain amount of points, games in those days gave players very little help at all.

[tehkao]

Well, if older games are that much harder, why is that I was able to 1-cc a lot of older shmups, but have never been able to 1-cc a modern, "manic" shmup?

[dave4shmups]

Well, if older games are that much harder, why is that I was able to 1-cc a lot of older shmups, but have never been able to 1-cc a modern, "manic" shmup?

If older shmups are so easy, then where are all the superplay videos of Galaga, Galaxian, Space Invaders, and Defender??

[Ghegs]

If older shmups are so easy, then where are all the superplay videos of Galaga, Galaxian, Space Invaders, and Defender??

A) Few people give a damn and B) those games never end. Until the hardware hits the kill screen, anyway. A video of someone breaking the World Record on Space Invaders would literally last days and would be dreadfully boring to watch.

[chtimi-CLA]

they're not harder, they just play completely differently.
in 80's games with a big collision zone (say twin cobra), you don't dodge bullets, you herd them (and try to kill the most dangerous enemies fast).
if you put yourself in a difficult situation you're almost dead.
you're probably more used to modern manics.

[Rob79]

Yeah, you need a japanese psx (or chipped, boot disc does NOT work) to run toaplan shooting battle properly. IMO well worth it, but it may be a bit much to ask for those who aren't die-hard toaplan fans.

C-moon,
I just got Toaplan shooting battle and my PS2 is modded with a Matrix Infinity chip.
Will it play at proper speeds ?

[it290]

Thinking of Toaplan games in particular here, I don't find the first stages particularly hard (maybe with the exception of Tatsujin Oh which is just LONG). If anything, it's usually the bosses that are difficult, though you're generally given a steady bomb supply with which to deal with them... although you want to avoid using said bombs because it will reduce your bonus.

[yojo!]

I think 80s games (Toaplan) are a lot easier than today shmups. smaller hitbox makes it much harder to determine if you are going to get hit or not.

[ROBOTRON]

INSERT COIN.

Harder difficulty in early stages of arcade shmups were designed to get you to drop quarters into the machine like mad.