Tropes vs Women in video games

[mesh control]

good thread.

[mesh control]

i am going to tweet this thread to her
fuck it

[mesh control]

nvm i forgot my password

[evil_ash_xero]

I think we need to look to Chad Warden for answers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0lDc8YM5U4

[Bananamatic]

Here is a female expert's opinion on this very important issue

[BareKnuckleRoo]

She'd probably get offended that you have to save Dusk in the DLC.

Unless you play as a girl. Then I guess that'd be OK. Right?

Basically, if you're obsessed with finding something that'll offend you, you can take offense to pretty much any inane thing. For instance, the early SaGa RPG games let you use both male and female characters, the differences being pretty much cosmetic aside from minor variations in starting stats and equipment. Equality, yay? In fact, if your first character is female (in the first game) you start with a Sabre (which you can sell for a buttload of cash and makes things super easy early on as you can buy a boatload of equipment) so they're actually better than males! But I'm sure someone could spin it and claim ohnoes, females need a handicap and get extra help! Females have slightly lower starting HP so they're more frail, ohnoes!

Video game characters aren't realistic. 'Nuff said.

[Ed Oscuro]

one small phrase, Roo - body image

[BareKnuckleRoo]

You could argue that male portrayals are just as bad (I think someone already pointed this out). If we were to judge by videogames, every guy on the planet has giant-ass muscles, can take a zillion bullets/punches to the head, etc. Also, all overweight guys would automatically be villains. But that's tropes, for you.

[Drum]

You could argue that male portrayals are just as bad.

No you couldn't, but I'd like to see you waste a lot of time trying.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I could get all offended about how any time there's a gay guy in a video game it's either the hard gay type or the super effeminate type, but aside from being blatantly stereotypical, they also happen to be fabulous~. By which I mean gameplaywise, Ash is awkward to learn but tied for top tier damage with the strongest 3 star blitz in the remake, and while Olisis may be a tad obsessed with roses, he's just as awesome as manlyman Iceman. Everyone who's played God Hand may have laughed when Mr. Gold and Mr. Silver showed up, but they will whip your sorry ass and be flamboyantly homosexual in the process, and who's to say that's wrong? Who's to say you can't have a pair of muscular, delightfully campy faggots as bosses that can also wipe out the player's lifebar with ease?

I can think of a lot of female characters who may have absurdly exaggerated physical characteristics, but in terms of gameplay they're more than competitive with the males, which I think matters more than appearances when it comes to equality. If Blaze wants to run around beating the crap out people in a miniskirt (best character in SoR1, hands down, Axel and Adam are pretty much useless in Hard compared to her), or if Bayonetta wants to striptease while beating up angels (basically her vs the entirety of a crazy patriarchal religion, no less), then who's to say you can't fight and look good doing it? Yes, it's absurd, but nobody said games should be realistic role models for all. I think it's a bit problematic if you have more fictional role models than real life ones, but that's probably a whole other can of beans unto itself.

From a gameplay standpoint and not merely an appearance perspective, I wonder is there really that much of a disparity between male and female characters generally?

[Squire Grooktook]

one small phrase, Roo - body image

I'M SO JEALOUS OF THESE ANIME PEOPLE WITH THEIR BIG STARRY EYE'S

HOW WILL MY TINY LITTLE EYE'S EVER COMPETE WITH THAT???

I FEEL SO UGLY

[Ed Oscuro]

it's true that squeenix is very receptive of the crying need to spread out the pain of flimsy costumes without respect to gender

yes men, now your heroes can take an unnecssary arrow to the knee too!

[mesh control]

a rebuttal

The more I think about this [too much time], the more her entire argument feels so shallow.
Basically anytime she says "popculture critic" I think of how much a sham popculture anything is.

oh, well.

Kaine in Nier was cool, right?

[system11]

From a gameplay standpoint and not merely an appearance perspective, I wonder is there really that much of a disparity between male and female characters generally?

Depends on the game. In Phantasy Star Universe, females of all races had lower HP, strength, accuracy etc and higher evasion, mental strength and technic power. Due to the way the game worked, at certain levels the 'wrong' gender for a job type could end up not being able to equip the same weapons and armour. At the highest levels, there were occasions where a male character would kill an enemy in fewer shots which stacked the odds in time attacking.

[Skykid]

All the guys look like girls in videogames these days anyway, I don't see the problem.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I haven't played PSU, but I know in Phantasy Star Online that females, particularly spellcasters, are pretty much equally popular and favourable, and you always see plenty of Hucaseals and Racaseals running around. They also got gender specific equipment males didn't get access to. Few people play Ramars or Fomars it seems.

The Phantasy Star series in general is actually pretty good in terms of playables; the first game has one of the earliest examples of a female lead in Alys, who is statted to be an offensive melee attack (she's the worst of the three mages by far!) thus reversing the early stereotype of females being spellcasters, and is motivated purely by revenge for her brother to boot, not to mention there's plenty of other females playable throughout the series.

Anyone see this clip of her, yet (4:40)? It explains she's been motivated to monetize her series by drumming up a controversy and using obvious troll responses as "look at all this misogyny, this is why we need my video!", blocking comments on her actual series video to avoid legitimate criticism but not on other videos so she can keep pointing at any negative troll comments and claiming she's the target of a hate campaign or what have you in order to keep the controversy high and get as much attention (and money) as possible. I wonder if Anita herself has posted any of that vitriol just to add to it so she can play up her victimization as effectively as possible.

Odd that she chooses to focus on characters in games with excuse plots, where the princess (or Marion) exists purely as a shallow excuse for the gameplay (and in Bowser's case, he cares more about taking over the kingdom or getting star power or whatever than Peach herself). As one response points out, the princess is the 'ruler of the fucking kingdom' and might just have 'very bad security', lol. They're lazy stories because nobody really cares about the story. You don't hear someone say how awesome Mario is because it's got an epic plot, it's all about the platforming.

[Squire Grooktook]

Phantasy Star Online 2 also keeps the different stats based on gender, but it's not really that big a deal. Every rage and gender can equip every item basically, and the hp difference hardly matters even for Hunters since both genders have plenty of hp and you can customize how much hp you have anyway. The fanservicy female costumes vastly outnumber the non-fanservicy ones (not that there's anything sexist about fanservice or anything), but they recently started making it so that female characters can wear many male costumes.

[Mortificator]

I guess it's chic to be hypersensitive now.

[Edmond Dantes]

I guess it's chic to be hypersensitive now.

It really is.

It seems like everyone these days wants special rights and special treatments, while doing absolutely nothing to earn said rights or said treatments. It's an Entitlement Culture, and it's honestly sickening.

[louisg]

I guess it's chic to be hypersensitive now.

It really is.

It seems like everyone these days wants special rights and special treatments, while doing absolutely nothing to earn said rights or said treatments. It's an Entitlement Culture, and it's honestly sickening.

Oh please explain. This should be hilarious.

[Ed Oscuro]

There are two parties in America, one of which knows what "entitlements" means and another which likes to talk about the psychology of feeling entitled, which really has nothing to do with it. A most unfortunate term these days but we could call them "THINGS YOU ALREADY PAID FOR" and people would still spin it negatively.

[Tyranix95]

... The video maker should try KOF. There are a fuck-ton of badass female fighting game characters.

This deserves comment: +1, And don't forget about the CPACOM gals. They kick ass too.

[Tyranix95]

... What women appear to enjoy is co-op in the likes of Diablo. Also, Heroes of Might & Magic.

Bubble Bobble, man, chicks dig Bubble Bobble.

Don't know what they put in that game but they love it.

[RNGmaster]

Aww bless, look - they got a woman to pose next to some games she knows nothing about <3

Jesus christ dude. I hope you're being sarcastic. I hate that this attitude is so prevalent, really.

I think the bigger issue w/r/t sexism is its prevalence in video game culture, not in video games themselves. The whole damsel in distress thing is admittedly played out, and objectification of women is also pretty readily visible. What really gets on my nerves is men's attitude towards women gamers as a whole, which alternates wildly between "I wish more girls played video games" and "lol, a girl playing video games? get in the kitchen, bitch". Unfortunately, any of the small mis-steps Sarkeesian has made will only serve to propagate these toxic bigoted attitudes among the gaming community.

I really wish it could be different, but guys who have grown up with video gaming rather than normal socialization really don't know how to properly treat women. It's either a race to get into their pants or a race to dehumanize them (sometimes both).

[Hagane]

I doesn't really have that much to do with videogaming, really. It's how men view women in general (and, to be fair, women in general don't do much to fight back; the feminists are a very small minority, often looked down by other women).

[louisg]

I doesn't really have that much to do with videogaming, really. It's how men view women in general (and, to be fair, women in general don't do much to fight back; the feminists are a very small minority, often looked down by other women).

Yeah, I agree. Though I don't even know what feminism is anymore. Wanting to be treated fairly and payed the same as everyone else is different from crazed angry blogs.

Which brings me to...

I really wish it could be different, but guys who have grown up with video gaming rather than normal socialization really don't know how to properly treat women. It's either a race to get into their pants or a race to dehumanize them (sometimes both).

.. geeks internalizing weird stereotypes which feed into a claim that they're more misogynistic than mainstream culture. Want mainstream culture? OK, here ya go:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/17/c ... e-rapists/

CNN, man. CNN. I don't think you could possibly believe that about "guys who have grown up with video gaming" unless you really don't know anyone who's not a geek.

[RNGmaster]

Oh I totally agree, misogyny is widespread in all of modern culture. What bothers me about "gamer misogyny" specifically is that there's so much widespread indignity when a woman tries to bring up the issue of sexism in games.

[O. Van Bruce]

What really gets on my nerves is men's attitude towards women gamers as a whole, which alternates wildly between "I wish more girls played video games" and "lol, a girl playing video games? get in the kitchen, bitch".

Never has heard about both stances with people IRL. I've only heard it from americans.

I doesn't really have that much to do with videogaming, really. It's how men view women in general (and, to be fair, women in general don't do much to fight back; the feminists are a very small minority, often looked down by other women).

You live in latinamerica, I lived in latinamerica. It's completely different here in Europe.

Oh I totally agree, misogyny is widespread in all of modern culture. What bothers me about "gamer misogyny" specifically is that there's so much widespread indignity when a woman tries to bring up the issue of sexism in games.

As I mentioned before, she's doing it just to satisfy feminazis egos. The problem comes when normal men and women takes her biased and uninformed views seriously.

[Edmond Dantes]

I guess it's chic to be hypersensitive now.

It really is.

It seems like everyone these days wants special rights and special treatments, while doing absolutely nothing to earn said rights or said treatments. It's an Entitlement Culture, and it's honestly sickening.

Oh please explain. This should be hilarious.

What's to explain? We have a culture where people think that all of society will bend to them if they kick and scream loudly enough, and then get pissed off if it doesn't work. And most of the time, they fail to do anything that demonstrates the changes they want would serve anyone other than themselves.

Not sure why that would be "hilarious."

[louisg]

Oh I totally agree, misogyny is widespread in all of modern culture. What bothers me about "gamer misogyny" specifically is that there's so much widespread indignity when a woman tries to bring up the issue of sexism in games.

I think it's definitely worth discussing, and there are a lot of people who'll listen and agree. I see a ton of debate on it in the geek circles I hang around, which is a positive thing. Maybe we notice it more because of that. Though from what I'm gathering, a lot of the resentment of Sarkeesian generates seems based on unrealistic preconceived arguments designed to provoke rather than to actually discuss. Not that she deserved anything approaching the insane backlash she received.

And from a cliche standpoint if nothing else, stereotypes are boring and uncreative. I think plots and characters would be a lot better off if writers and artists would get away from that. And as time goes on, this kind of writing will just seem more and more embarrassingly dated anyway.

What's to explain? We have a culture where people think that all of society will bend to them if they kick and scream loudly enough, and then get pissed off if it doesn't work. And most of the time, they fail to do anything that demonstrates the changes they want would serve anyone other than themselves.

Well that was certainly specific. Is this like when a bunch of straight people demand that marriage should be only for them...?