Want to get a 31khz monitor. Any help appreciated.

[NWrain]

I want to get a multi-sync CRT computer monitor for retro gaming. I plan to line double my RGB consoles to 640x480. I all ready have an Extron Andora, and a recently purchased Micomsoft XRGB-1 do to this. I have a BVM that looks great, but I am sensitive to the frequency it emits which is very fatiguing, and a PVM with incurable geometry problems, and similar noise issues.

I want to know about people’s experiences with retrogaming on computer monitors. Are there certain brands or technology that are superior? Are there certain features or size of monitor I should avoid? There is a local business that is selling a professional grade NEC FP950 19” CRT monitor with a max resolution of 1920x1440. It is advertised as having a Diamondtron tube, but I’m not sure if that is good or not.

[Ed Oscuro]

Diamondtron = Trinitron-alike. I believe the patent on the technology had expired so other manufacturers came up with their own versions of it. Larger tubes (certainly 21" but possibly 19" as well) will have one or two filaments running horizontally across the screen to hold the vertical grille strips in place (the old Trinitron tubes shimmer if bumped because of this reason).

Beware of the so-called "True Flat" tubes which have a curved screen inside the cabinet, behind a flat piece of glass. Looking down at the corners of such a monitor will reveal the curvature inside, and the gap. I imagine these screens have no greater problems with geometry than regular curved screens, but why pay for the extra glass weight?

I have a 17" NEC MultiSync FE700+. It has a true flat screen and I haven't noticed any aperture grille related lines. The only thing about it I find offputting is the lit logo in front, which does serve a purpose (green for displaying a signal, orange / amber when on standby, makes it quite easy to tell when it's displaying signal from the XRGB so I can rule out problems past the supergun).

I think that perhaps some pro Sony and other monitors will take VGA inputs (perhaps needing the right input board to be connected), so those might be more flexible as they will of course also run RGB signals with a lot less fuss. Still, this unit serves its purpose well.

I am not sure why you would go with an XRGB-1 instead of a 2 or 2+ (I currently have one of each; one works better with some boards than the others) but please share your impressions when you get the setup.

[ryu]

if you want to go the multi-sync path for retrogaming you can't go any better than with nec's 29" multi-sync tubes that can take 15khz as well. if you're insisting on a 31khz crt i'd recommend a sony pgm, although they seem to be pretty rare.

[Ed Oscuro]

if you're insisting on a 31khz crt i'd recommend a sony pgm, although they seem to be pretty rare.

Any special reason? Image controls maybe? Seems like a lot of expense and harassment just to get a 31KHz picture.

[ryu]

if you're insisting on a 31khz crt i'd recommend a sony pgm, although they seem to be pretty rare.

Any special reason? Image controls maybe? Seems like a lot of expense and harassment just to get a 31KHz picture.

because of their 29" size

he didn't specificably say he wanted a small tube so i just assume the bigger the better for him

[Lawfer]

Are there any PGM in Europe?

[ryu]

i know there are some in germany...

[Lawfer]

i know there are some in germany...

Model numbers pls.

[Fudoh]

Same as the last PVM - - 2950. PGM is the 31khz version with the same tube.

I sold mine a year ago: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... t=pgm+2950

[Lawfer]

Same as the last PVM - - 2950. PGM is the 31khz version with the same tube.

I was asking because I googled it and there is barely any traces of it on the internet in Europe. But it seems that in Europe it is called "PGM-2950E"

I sold mine a year ago: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... t=pgm+2950

Damn nice set, but is it only good for the Dreamcast?

[ryu]

there are also the pgm 200 R1 & R2 models. they're probably not much different from the classic 2950 though.

the R1 supports an optional scaling board which is pretty bad for scaling, but has a nice v-enhance function which increases picture sharpness by a noticable amount. rgb 240p linedoubling might be nice with it, but i've never tested that when i was owning the model in question.

the R2 does not support such a scaling board i think, but is capable of displaying 50hz 576p sources. the classic pgm and R1 unit without scaling board can't do that.

[Lawfer]

I sold mine a year ago: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... t=pgm+2950

How much did you sold it for?

[Lawfer]

there are also the pgm 200 R1 & R2 models. they're probably not much different from the classic 2950 though.

the R1 supports an optional scaling board which is pretty bad for scaling, but has a nice v-enhance function which increases picture sharpness by a noticable amount. rgb 240p linedoubling might be nice with it, but i've never tested that when i was owning the model in question.

the R2 does not support such a scaling board i think, but is capable of displaying 50hz 576p sources. the classic pgm and R1 unit without scaling board can't do that.

So does this PGM monitor works well with Gamecube, Playstation 2, Dreamcast (in VGA with games that support 31Khz) and Xbox?

[ryu]

I want to know about people’s experiences with retrogaming on computer monitors.

the pgm 200 r1 i used to have was a terrific monitor, great contrast at no matter what brightness setting (i've only seen this on sony crts so far). i also own a pro grade crt from eizo that was manufactured in 2006, the contrast on that sucks for movies and games (even on the movie picture mode). might be a gamma calibration issue though.

getting a pgm to use with a linedoubler for low res is probably the best you could get, but the NEC FP950 19” CRT should be fine anyways. especially considering that pgm units are only very scarcily available.

So does this PGM monitor works well with Gamecube, Playstation 2, Dreamcast (in VGA with games that support 31Khz) and Xbox?

generally:
dreamcast with vga box, yes, but not all games support 31khz output via vga (but the majority does)
gamecube, yes for earlier ntsc units that have the digital out port. you'd need a somewhat expensive gcn vga cable though and only a bunch of ntsc games support 480p output (for a compatibility list check wikipedia).
only very few ps2 games support 480p and the ps2 does not support vga output, which you would need. you'd need another video processor to connect a ps2 to a pgm.

things are a bit different with the R1 model + scaling board however, as that unit can take 480i from the ps2 via component (480p from component doesn't work though). BUT the deinterlacing is complete shit. it can easily add a lot of lag and introduces lots of artifacts.

[lettuce]

I sold mine a year ago: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... t=pgm+2950

61kgs!!!!! Did you get a crain to move it our your propity??. I thought my PVM I recently got at 30kgs was bad, but something twice as heavy how is it even possible what the hell was Sony packing in these, concert bloks or something?

[ryu]

I sold mine a year ago: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... t=pgm+2950

61kgs!!!!! Did you get a crain to move it our your propity??. I thought my PVM I recently got at 30kgs was bad, but something twice as heavy how is it even possible what the hell was Sony caking know these concert bloks or something

that's nothing

[lettuce]

I sold mine a year ago: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... t=pgm+2950

61kgs!!!!! Did you get a crain to move it our your propity??. I thought my PVM I recently got at 30kgs was bad, but something twice as heavy how is it even possible what the hell was Sony packing in these concert, blocks or something?

that's nothing

Go on??

[Lawfer]

the pgm 200 r1 i used to have was a terrific monitor, great contrast at no matter what brightness setting (i've only seen this on sony crts so far). i also own a pro grade crt from eizo that was manufactured in 2006, the contrast on that sucks for movies and games (even on the movie picture mode). might be a gamma calibration issue though.

getting a pgm to use with a linedoubler for low res is probably the best you could get, but the NEC FP950 19” CRT should be fine anyways. especially considering that pgm units are only very scarcily available.

I have done research and in PAL territory this PGM monitor seem to be Germany only, so I am out of luck. But since you are in Germany could one of you Ubermenschen get one for me?

generally:
dreamcast with vga box, yes, but not all games support 31khz output via vga (but the majority does)
gamecube, yes for earlier ntsc units that have the digital out port. you'd need a somewhat expensive gcn vga cable though and only a bunch of ntsc games support 480p output (for a compatibility list check wikipedia).
only very few ps2 games support 480p and the ps2 does not support vga output, which you would need. you'd need another video processor to connect a ps2 to a pgm.

things are a bit different with the R1 model + scaling board however, as that unit can take 480i from the ps2 via component (480p from component doesn't work though). BUT the deinterlacing is complete shit. it can easily add a lot of lag and introduces lots of artifacts.

So does that make the 2950 the perfect screen for NTSC Wii games? I have two Wiis, a US one and a Euro one, both are backward compatible for Gamecube games. I do not like 576p though, because even though visually it is better, it just looks weird and unatural, not to mention that the animation is way too slugish.

[lettuce]

Lawfer, where are you based??

[Lawfer]

Lawfer, where are you based??

Freunce...

[ryu]

Go on??

there are still crts out there that weigh around 100kg.

i just checked and the pgm 200 r1 was specified with a mass of 55kg. i wonder if those 61kg from fudoh were a rough estimate, and if not i'd really like to know why it would be even heavier than the r1 model with scaling board.

So does that make the 2950 the perfect screen for NTSC Wii games?

not without a processor that can take the wii's component signal and spit out vga 480p.

my european wii outputs 480p via component, dunno why you're talking about 576p

I have done research and in PAL territory this PGM monitor seem to be Germany only, so I am out of luck. But since you are in Germany could one of you Ubermenschen get one for me?

i used to constantly check on ebay for pgm models for months and have never ecnountered even a single one

[Lawfer]

not without a processor that can take the wii's component signal and spit out vga 480p.

Cant you do the same with a custom Component to BNC Wii cable?

i used to constantly check on ebay for pgm models for months and have never ecnountered even a single one

Aww that sucks, well I will keep looking then, thanks though.

dunno why you're talking about 576p

To make clear that I am just interested in NTSC games (which are only in 480P max) and that the R2 ability to do 576p over the other PGMs should not be taken unto acount from saying that the 2950 is less suited to be a good screen for the Wii games.

[lettuce]

Lawfer, where are you based??

Freunce...

Ah, as I know a guy in the UK who had a new 29" Tri Sync Sega replacement arcade monitors, only down side is there £340 odd!? That said I would prefer to stay away from tri sync monitors for our sort of application, maybe just a 31khz monitor is best and just linedouble 240p stuff?

[NWrain]

The reason I am specifically searching for a 31khz monitor is because I am working under the assumption that 15Khz TVs make a 15Khz noise. I am hoping that a dedicated 31Khz display will not make those fatiguing noises.

I am not sure why you would go with an XRGB-1 instead of a 2 or 2+ (I currently have one of each; one works better with some boards than the others) but please share your impressions when you get the setup.

I bought the XRGB-1 out of curiosity. Hardly anyone talks about it. I was really entranced by the simplicity of the all analog controls of the unit. I passed over buying a XRGB-2 not too long ago for a Mini-Framemeister. However, my Framemeister was defective out of the box. The main advantage of the 2 and 2+ are their scanlines right? I have a SLG3000, so scanlines shouldn’t be an issue. I am a little concerned how well a native 1920x1440 monitor will interpolate a 640x480 image.

I don’t have a Supergun or any arcade boards so I won’t be able to give my opinion regarding that type of game. I’ll be sure to come back and give my impressions of how it worked with my RGB consoles.

I’m open to multiple options. However, most people are not willing to ship big CRT’s like the 29” PGM. I forgot to mention in the first post that I would like to play TATE games too. A reasonably sized monitor would be easier to rotate.

“i also own a pro grade crt from eizo that was manufactured in 2006, the contrast on that sucks for movies and games (even on the movie picture mode). might be a gamma calibration issue though.”

I have read that many computer monitors are not as bright as TV’s because they are meant for an office setting and were meant to be stared at for an entire workday.

I am also giving a cursory look at the Sony FW900 24" CRT. However, that one is widescreen, and much more expensive than a $45 19" CRT.

[ryu]

Cant you do the same with a custom Component to BNC Wii cable?

the monitor just does not handle 480p component signals. you'll have to process it into a 480p rgbhv signal first (vga)

The reason I am specifically searching for 31khz dedicated monitor is because I am working under the assumption that 15Khz TVs make a 15Khz noise. I am hoping that a dedicated 31Khz display will not make those fatiguing noises.

that's new to me.... supposedly all crts constantly emit a high-pitched noise that only some people are capable of hearing at all. i recommend you just get vga crt that's small and cheap just to test out if you'r still hearing that noise which is troubling you.

i think most vga crts also have scanlines at 480p so you might not need an extra slg device.

[ryu]

I am a little concerned how well a native 1920x1440 monitor will interpolate a 640x480 image.

there should be no interpolation on a vga crt. they're usually multisync from 31khz onwards to a specified max. resolution of so-and-so many lines and so-and-so much hertz.

I have read that many computer monitors are not as bright as TV’s because they are meant for an office setting and were meant to be stared at for an entire workday.

a properly calibrated, good display device will have a strong contrast anyways. the maximum brightness of high end displays is usually complete overkill for home-use

That said I would prefer to stay away from tri sync monitors for our sort of application, maybe just a 31khz monitor is best and just linedouble 240p stuff?

240p capable multisync crts usually have a much sharper picture than low res tubes which resuluts in more pronounced scanlines. some might not like that, but you'd end up with a similar (probably even sharper) picture on an office crt with linedoubler.

[Fudoh]

61kg for the PGM came out of spec sheet.

I bought the XRGB-1 out of curiosity.

let us know how it performs. From what I've heard it should be absolutely identical to the XRGB-2 in terms of picture quality and doubling capacities.

I am a little concerned how well a native 1920x1440 monitor will interpolate a 640x480 image.

we're talking CRTs ? PC CRTs don't have a native resolution and there won't be any upscaling or interpolation.

[ryu]

I forgot to mention in the first post that I would like to play TATE games too. A reasonably sized monitor would be easier to rotate.

i recommend just getting two crts if you've got the space

[NWrain]

I am a little concerned how well a native 1920x1440 monitor will interpolate a 640x480 image.

there should be no interpolation on a vga crt. they're usually multisync from 31khz onwards to a specified max. resolution of so-and-so many lines and so-and-so much hertz.

I am a little concerned how well a native 1920x1440 monitor will interpolate a 640x480 image.

we're talking CRTs ? PC CRTs don't have a native resolution and there won't be any upscaling or interpolation.

Thank you for the correction. I got mixed up somewhere.

I bought the XRGB-1 out of curiosity.

let us know how it performs. From what I've heard it should be absolutely identical to the XRGB-2 in terms of picture quality and doubling capacities.

Sure, it's on its way from Japan right now. Even though I live on the West Coast of America, it takes a long time for packages to arrive from Japan.

I forgot to mention in the first post that I would like to play TATE games too. A reasonably sized monitor would be easier to rotate.

i recommend just getting two crts if you've got the space

I'm thankful for the suggestion. It's just that I all ready have two 15khz CRTs, and a LCD laying around in my shoebox room at the moment. I'm drowning in display technology, scalers, and cables.

i think most vga crts also have scanlines at 480p so you might not need an extra slg device.

I didn't know that about scanlines. Good to know.

Also, is line doubled 240P really 480P or is it 640x480? There is a difference right? I have been wondering for a while what makes a display properly over scan an image.

When line doubling 240P:
My Extron line doubler on my NEC LCD2490Wuxi produces black borders.
The Silicon Optix Image Anyplace I used to own produced black borders whether it was VGA or DVI.
My Vigatec Dune F produces black borders whether it was VGA or DVI.
When I had my XRGB-Mini, it somehow enabled over scan options that were on my LCDs.
Does a scaler determine over scanning or is it up to the display?

[Fudoh]

i think most vga crts also have scanlines at 480p so you might not need an extra slg device.

but not in the desired 15khz spacing. If you have a hi-res CRT (like with 1440p max) you certainly get faint scanlines between each line with a 480p source, but you still need a SLG to black out every second line.

Also, is line doubled 240P really 480P or is it 640x480?

it's 480p.

There is a difference right?

on analogue signals you don't count the horizontal pixels. You just state the lines and an aspect ratio. Don't forget that both 320x224 (NG), 384x224 (CPS2) and 256x224 (SNES) are all 240p 4:3 timings.

Does a scaler determine over scanning or is it up to the display?

both are possible, but if you want to use a SLG, you cannot use a "scaler", you need a linedoubler and with linedoubling you can't do overscan control, because you lose the pixel/line alignment (and then the SLG won't look good anymore). On a PC CRT you can easily stretch the picture on both axis to get rid of any borders.