Tropes vs Women in video games

[Udderdude]

The guys that harassed whatshername are obviously immature idiots, not to mention almost entirely from 4chan's /v/, which is pretty much the biggest videogame shithole on the interwebs. Doesn't mean the majority of gamers would do the same.

I wouldn't even qualify them as gamers, to be honest. If they liked games, they wouldn't be on /v/. They're just stupid assholes. :p

[AntiFritz]

I dunno, I like games quite a lot actually.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Didn't shaved pubic hair of female western pornographic models become a norm when the first Barbie-influenced generation came of age? Would explain a lot. Barbie had a major influence on boys.

[mrsmiley381]

Also, Double Dragon gut punch is iconic. Leave that shit alone.

Yes. In fact, it is the reason why I kept playing! What an awesome start to a video game.

You know what? Her comment in the video calling the gut-punch in Double Dragon Neon degressive simply blows my mind, because she's focusing entirely on one instance of obvious sexism without evaluating any of its repercussions on the game. In the original, Willy accompanies his goons to a kidnapping and doesn't even punch her himself. Billy and Jimmy then go on an awesome, challenging adventure that implements usable weapons and varied environments with various traps. At the end, they confront Willy, who hides behind a small army of goons before directly engaging you. His last line of defense is a machine gun. Why? Because Willy is a giant coward. He won't steal a woman on his own and he won't even face the repercussions of his actions alone. When it comes to the last few guys, he still is the only one to wield a long-distance weapon, and one that is far deadlier than most. His ass warrants a beating, plain and simple.

But no, Technos decided to take things further. What if two players completed the game? Then they'd fight to see who gets the girl. It's really bizarre, but it's still a pretty hefty consequence of playing in co-op. I have trouble thinking of any media that did this before Double Dragon. I'd like to know of any particular stories that have two people fighting each other after going for the same prize for an entire adventure. The only other game I can recall that does this is Dynamite Cop. In that case it seems to be more sloppily included, as the damsel in distress isn't a love interest of any real sort.

So, if it makes any sense, Double Dragon took the damsel in distress and used it as a way to fuel other creative endeavors, sexist or not.

Double Dragon Neon, on the other hand, used Marian's kidnapping as a familiar starting point to what eventually turns into a completely insane story that ends with Marian using the power of love to send Billy and Jimmy into a dimensional warp to fight a more awesome version of Super Shredder. Everything in the game, gut-punch and various amounts of cleavage included, is a parodic love letter to a bygone era. This obvious sexism is used in a clearly purposeful manner. It has context. Sarkeesian ignores this context entirely. So, my point is that she's nitpicking pieces and parts without looking at the big picture.

(Below: Preparing for the inevitable "Women always dressed as sluts" video)

I'm fine with female protagonists. Hell, I prefer when they're realistic. Half the Phantasy Star cast, Jill Valentine, Rebecca Chambers, whoever, they're cool with me. I'm playing through Parasite Eve and I think Aya Brea is awesome. Even the sexualized characters, whether it be Bayonetta, Cammy, or the later, skankier incarnations of Jill Valentine, they're cool with me. Why? Because they kick some serious ass, even if some of them do get kidnapped at some point or they look like total whores. Last time I checked, women wanted not to be judged for how they look, correct? Well, there you have it. Look past the immature aesthetics and a majority of these female characters could rip us in half, snap our necks, or put bullet holes in us faster than we could react. I'm certain Willy would regret trying to kidnap any of them.

[Marble]

Why is anyone even giving this dumb bitch's opinions the time of day?

[AntiFritz]

Why is anyone even giving this dumb bitch's opinions the time of day?

I think it's best we just ignore her, really.

[Skykid]

Why is anyone even giving this dumb bitch's opinions the time of day?

Not an altogether bad question. Badly phrased, on the other hand.

As Brooker noted, most of the Internet denizens prone to misogynistic rants are bedroom dwelling reprobates with no recourse to real life social skills, therefore attacks are prompted by anger at an inability to be understood by the opposite sex.

I only have sympathy when I consider how common it is for children to end up this way as a result of critical failings in Western social practices and bad parenting. All those wars over too much gaming being dangerous for you are over: sit the kid down with several packets of Cheetos and a bottle of soft drink, tell him the real world is on the Internet, and check back in 5 years to find the useless, fat degenerate on welfare that you created.

From pure observation, China's youth don't have this problem. The sexes are extremely integrated, respectful of one another and outgoing. It's kind of a flipside to the increasing behavioural insularity that seems to be propagating through Western cultures. It's not weird that oversexed female protagonists and sidekicks sell games really, that's the only piece of ass some people get.

But yeah, it's a pretty stupid video, I agree.

[idchappy]

Reading some of the YouTube comments is pretty disgusting though

[ciox]

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

I think this video is really one sided. The video seemed to really focus on Nintendo. I'd never expect a Nintendo game to have a strong female lead character (aside from Samus). These games are kind of rehashes, so of course they are going to keep going with the same damsel in distress story. It's not like there aren't examples of strong female characters in video games. Squaresoft games, Mass Effect, Tomb Raider, Half Life 2, pretty much any fighting game, etc. Even in Metal Gear, which was criticized in the video - The Boss in Metal Gear Solid 3 is a great strong female character. I'm not saying it's as prevalent but there are plenty of examples. Yeah sure the girlfriend gets socked in the gut and kidnapped in Double Dragon but what about the whip girls, they can kick your ass.

[Marble]

As Brooker noted, most of the Internet denizens prone to misogynistic rants are bedroom dwelling reprobates with no recourse to real life social skills, therefore attacks are prompted by anger at an inability to be understood by the opposite sex.

And what makes you think that the majority of people on the other side of the fence are really all that different? We both know that the majority of people who are actually discussing what this chick has said (Hell, even most of the people who watched her shitty video for over a minute) are just doing it because she has a vagina.

Misogyny isn't the only way to vent sexual frustration - there's also those who are frustrated and don't understand the opposite sex and think that acting like a pandering bitch is what women are looking for. Which it of course isn't. I have already seen this stupid video in my facebook feed, along with sexual frustrated dudes praising it. People talking shit that's basically "Oh yeah, this is totally great, like, a video explaining why Princess Peach being in distress and Mario saving her is like, bad for women and shit, this is totally empowering to women, I am all for it!" Do you think people like this really understand the opposite sex? Fuck no. These are the same idiot guys that "fall in love" and become obsessed with the one hot girl they work with, because they're so socially retarded that walking up to a random hot girl in the street and meeting her isn't even within their realm of possibility. They think this behaviour (being a pandering bitch) is going to get them respect among women or even (lol) get them laid. Of course these people never do, and if they do it's not with the girls they really want.

By the way Skykid, I know you only mentioned "anger at an inability to be understood" whereas I am talking about "sexual frustration" because that IS what it all comes down to. Just clarifying because I don't want you to think I'm putting words in your mouth.

I only have sympathy when I consider how common it is for children to end up this way as a result of critical failings in Western social practices and bad parenting. All those wars over too much gaming being dangerous for you are over: sit the kid down with several packets of Cheetos and a bottle of soft drink, tell him the real world is on the Internet, and check back in 5 years to find the useless, fat degenerate on welfare that you created.

Beautiful words, for real. But you shouldn't feel sympathy for these children. In the west, we have all the information we need to improve our lives right at our fingertips. If you can't look at the slobs around you and see that the road you're travelling leads to a dead end, then you can make an effort to change your habits and lifestyle to steer things in a better direction. If you don't, then you're weak and pathetic.

In the context of girls, there's tons of free information about fitness, style, female psychology and pick-up (PUA) out there that will improve your success.

[hail good sir]

the

[Skykid]

Marble, I respect your bluntness.

I don't subscribe to the angle from which you host your opinions, but reading between the lines I can understand aspects of your commentary. As mentioned, I've never been completely accepting of feminism because I feel like the arguments from the camp tend to ignore very simple but important patterns of nature. There's also an argument that the entire notion of feminism is in itself sexist, which unsettles things slightly.

More than that though, it's crazy difficult to try to understand feminist goals. When I think about reengineering the habitual nature of a global male populace to tie into certain ideologies, it's a little like trying to figure out what nothingness the universe is constantly expanding into: impossible.

These are the same idiot guys that "fall in love" and become obsessed with the one hot girl they work with, because they're so socially retarded that walking up to a random hot girl in the street and meeting her isn't even within their realm of possibility. They think this behaviour (being a pandering bitch) is going to get them respect among women or even (lol) get them laid. Of course these people never do, and if they do it's not with the girls they really want.

There are men more in touch with their feminine side, however. Certainly no myth. I've known plenty of intelligent, perfectly well-rounded individuals, some of whom have been close friends, who seemingly didn't have the same testosterone levels or fixation on sex than the average slavering male. While heterosexual, they tend to be more open-minded with a capacity for genuine cross-sex friendships and a better understanding of feminism etc, since they're not constantly burdened with thinking "shit, going to be late for wo... Wow, nice ass... How much was the ticket again? Can't even remember did I put my money in... Man, I'd love to motorboat her!" etc, etc.

Sometimes I seriously envy them. It's very hard to work within the unrealistic parameters of current moral (Christian) social designations when half the time your hormones are just telling you to fuck something. And that's basically another aspect I think feminism fails to take stock of.

Beautiful words, for real. But you shouldn't feel sympathy for these children. In the west, we have all the information we need to improve our lives right at our fingertips. If you can't look at the slobs around you and see that the road you're travelling leads to a dead end, then you can make an effort to change your habits and lifestyle to steer things in a better direction. If you don't, then you're weak and pathetic.

Well yes, but shitty, lazy parenting is a by-product of mass commercialism and materialism, I feel. Therefore I don't put all the blame entirely on dumbasses who have kids (but certainly some of it.) I just think our modern era is deceiving people into thinking they can have it all: 40 year old women can have net relationships posing as 19 year old girls, men can have digital waifus rather than wives, and why be past your prime when you can have a breast augmentation?

Certain important values have definitely gone down the shitter.

[greg]

How about let's explore the tropes of unnatural, overly plucked, overly manicured eyebrows, as well as over-sized hoop earrings instead? The woman in this video is annoying.

Didn't shaved pubic hair of female western pornographic models become a norm when the first Barbie-influenced generation came of age? Would explain a lot. Barbie had a major influence on boys.

Tell me about it. This makes me sick, and it is sad. Whereas body hair is a symbol of virtuous purity in other cultures (ie in Chinese culture, it's considered that only whores shave their pits), it has become vilified in the West (particularly in the USA) due to marketing. Barbie dolls are sick and wrong for both girls and boys. They portray unrealistic body expectations as well as the personification of materialism, and they indoctrinate girls into thinking that they can only be beautiful if they smear toxic makeup on their faces every day for the rest of their life.

I teach in Japan and work with adolescents, and the girls here are not pressured into wearing training bras, shaving their legs, wearing makeup, plucking their eyebrows, or piercing their ears. I must say that they are better off for it, compared to American girls of the same age.

I must say, though, that the "damsel in distress" trope exists for a reason. We live in a PC world that allows that one chick to sue the NYFD for sexual discrimination just because she wasn't strong enough to pass the physical tests to become a firefighter, forcing them to hire her, thus risking people's lives because she's not strong enough to toss them over her shoulder to rescue them from a burning building like a broad-shouldered, strong man can, all for the sake of promoting BS, unrealistic ideals of feminism. (I believe I have my facts right... I've had a lot of Jack & Coke tonight, and I think I'm ready for sleepy time now...) I consider myself a bit of a feminist, at least to the point where I annoy others, and they roll their eyes when I rant against stuff like high heels. Yet it doesn't take half a brain to realize the reason why women are considered the "weaker sex."

In my opinion, true feminism isn't about "proving that women can do whatever a man can," but realizing the strengths and weaknesses of both sexes and seeing how men and women complement each other, and how we are weak when we fail to realize this balance and interdependency.

That said, aside from characters like Samus, the majority of female main characters of video games are just there for the T&A factor, regardless of how physically strong they are (Bloodrayne, Bayonetta, etc). Too many of them are big tittied and sexualized with skimpy clothing. Guys didn't buy Tomb Raider because they supported feminist ideals; they bought it to stare at Lara Croft's ass.

[Skykid]

I consider myself a bit of a feminist, at least to the point where I annoy others, and they roll their eyes when I rant against stuff like high heels.

I couldn't live without high heels. Insta-semi 7 out of 10 times, and that's before I've even got to the boat race.

[Mischief Maker]

To me the elephant in the room in this whole debate is the violence. Male or Female, videogame protagonists engage in horrific levels of violence from beginning to end. But as everyone but the NRA knows, we can compartmentalize the violence into the land of make believe and recognize that none of this is acceptable in real life.

So if the violence doesn't spill over, why would princess peach's helplessness cause gamers to start thinking that women have no agency?

Arguably a rescue is about the only excuse for videogame levels of violence that isn't completely horrible.

And I recall the primarily male demographic of video gamers reacted universally with outrage when Other M turned Samus into a wuss, no prodding from feminist lecturers necessary.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Playable women appeared in games to let boys FINALLY play with dolls their way.
For whatever reason, I usually choose female characters in games and I know for sure many other guys are like that too. Made an exception for Contra: Shattered Soldier, not even sure why, but I blame that unforgettable title screen of NES Contra.

What Metroid Prime lacks is Samus Aran. I can see some woman's eyes in that game, but it doesn't work for me. Samus of my memories has maternal traits.

[Mischief Maker]

For whatever reason, I usually choose female characters in games and I know for sure many other guys are like that too.

My rationale is straightforward. Whose ass would I rather be staring at the whole game? A roided out dude, or a hot chick?

[Hagane]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with sexualization of videogame characters. Unless you want every character to look like Karnov or Chang Koehan. Every good looking character (female or male) is sexualized, even if he/she doesn't show a lot of skin. One can argue about how tastefully or well designed the character is (I certainly find Mature and Chun-li to be way better done than something from Otomedius), but wanting every single character to look unsexualized is silly and unrealistic, inadvertently turning from PC feminist to virtual radical muslim.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I think the looks of character only play role when technology and art is good enough. That's why so many 8-bit characters look childish (with so few pixels it worked best; Phantasy Star and Contra "adult" designs didn't look that compelling in games).

Even in Baraduke (huge and colourful sprites for their time, but square only), where the protagonist is armour-clad, it somewhat matters to me that she's a she.

[CMoon]

For whatever reason, I usually choose female characters in games and I know for sure many other guys are like that too.

My rationale is straightforward. Whose ass would I rather be staring at the whole game? A roided out dude, or a hot chick?

This is why capes/overcoats are so important in 3rd person games where the protagonist is a dude.

[greg]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with sexualization of videogame characters. Unless you want every character to look like Karnov or Chang Koehan. Every good looking character (female or male) is sexualized, even if he/she doesn't show a lot of skin. One can argue about how tastefully or well designed the character is (I certainly find Mature and Chun-li to be way better done than something from Otomedius), but wanting every single character to look unsexualized is silly and unrealistic, inadvertently turning from PC feminist to virtual radical muslim.

Yeah, I'm okay with that sort of thing. (I'm not sure if you're responding to the video or to what I wrote earlier.) Video games should be made to appeal to those who play them, of course, and there's nothing wrong with making the characters physically appealing. I know feminists will often cry sexism when a typical fantasy game has a man clad in heavy armor and the female playable character typically has no pants on, etc. There is a rationale behind that, since the valkyrie-type is usually more agile and quicker. Same goes for typical ninja garb as portrayed in games and anime. Still, it gets lame when game girls are dressed like floozy dominatrixes. Save that for the antagonists, at least. I find it refreshing to see female video game character designs like Saber who can embody power, femininity, and sex appeal without dressing like a whore. Then there are instances like when Namco took Ivy in Soul Calibur and increased her cup size by two or more. Enough is enough. There's a difference between sex appeal and outright pandering.

[Hagane]

The only difference is that you like one type of character design more than the other, really.

[Obiwanshinobi]

My problem with SoulCalibur designs (at least II) isn't their sizes (different strokes for different folks). Rather, it's that Namco designers don't seem to really like what they did there. Like people who had plastic surgery but don't like themselves any better after that.
What Team Ninja did in Other M looks like they just were being honest. Sincerity makes the difference.

[Skykid]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with sexualization of videogame characters. Unless you want every character to look like Karnov or Chang Koehan.

Most of the guys at my drinking table right now look like Chang Koehan, except for the lithe 20 year old girl who looks 17. My balls are on fire her, seriously. Too much cleavage.

[O. Van Bruce]

When will people, specially women, understand that you can't try to equallize everything in the world? There is a range of things a woman can do and a men can do... and obviously, there is a common range for both sexes. how about we start defining that common range?

That's true feminism for me. Not women trying to become ruthless individuals that hate any men that likes women because they are cute or sexy... hell, women are more fatty, has rounder faces, softer expressions and voices that your average male and that, in our animal subconscious, is considered cute/sexy. lots of hormones defines our behaviour and, although the power of "culture" is quite strong, things like a man being attracted to a supple breast or a woman to a muscular body is something inscribed in our genes.

Those are my 2-Cents on feminism. I'll watch the video now...

[BryanM]

Hawkeye Initiative.

The majority of gamers are male

This will cease to be even a little true in a few more years.

Unless you subscribe to the "those aren't 'real' games" mindset and not the "money changes hands" opinion.

Sexism in Japanese society is one thing

Being knee deep in Monster Hunter right now, I think it's safe to say that Japanese antipathy extends to the entirety of humanity as a whole, and not just a small subset.

[O. Van Bruce]

The majority of gamers are male

This will cease to be even a little true in a few more years.

Unless you subscribe to the "those aren't 'real' games" mindset and not the "money changes hands" opinion.

Yeah, we already have a great number of gamer girls... playing angry birds or some mobile light videogame

how much "complex" videogames (the opposite of mobile apps) are played by females? The only genre I know there is a similar number of female and male gamers is on the RPGs.

[Skykid]

Being knee deep in Monster Hunter right now, I think it's safe to say that Japanese antipathy extends to the entirety of humanity as a whole, and not just a small subset.

Perhaps this is true. They're probably just more vocal. And this 17 year ol... I mean 20yr old... ah fuck it, I'm drunk, who's counting.

[O. Van Bruce]

Being knee deep in Monster Hunter right now, I think it's safe to say that Japanese antipathy extends to the entirety of humanity as a whole, and not just a small subset.

Perhaps this is true. They're probably just more vocal. And this 17 year ol... I mean 20yr old... ah fuck it, I'm drunk, who's counting.

The question is why are you posting here about feminism and the wickedness of men instead of talking with her...