Understanding Scrolling Shooters

[Obiwanshinobi]

Some stuff that developers could do:
1. Don't start players with infinite continues. Tie extra credits to a score-based shop or time-based unlocks. This feature makes no sense if you want people to actually play your game. I don't think anybody would have played Ikaruga for more than 30 minutes if there had been infinite continues off the bat. Infinite continues makes your game disposable.
2. Think about meta-structure. Ginga Force's unlockable lives and level selection really rework the standard formula, and even something as simple as Mars Matrix's shop really gives players incentive to score.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=839771

[Lynx Winters]

If you want to tie the scoring system and continues together without adding a shop menu, make the player spend points or score items or whatever on the continue screen. Start the price relatively low each game and increase the price each time they buy an extra credit so that one or two continues are easy enough to earn after a couple of attempts but severe credit feeding becomes impossible because the player simply can't keep up with inflation.

[Special World]

@Obiwan: Agree with most of what you said there. I do think that tying score to whatever money you have left is problematic though, since that means the best players won't use any of the available resources, which tends to make for a boring game. One of my least favorite things about Sine Mora is that you're not allowed to use your tools without sacrificing score, and one thing I love about Yagawa is that you're encouraged to use your lives and bombs as assets. Also, in regards to a "Super Mario" of shooters, I think it would be fantastic if some developer would make a shooter with a world map like Mario World. I think it would work amazingly with twin-stick design, and allow for a bunch of different level types. Time trials, high score levels, bullet hell boss battles, you name it. It'd free the game up for experimentation and give it a framework that more players can relate to.

@Lynx: Devil May Cry 3 did something like that, and it just resulted in me never buying items. I seriously didn't buy any items in that game until I was absolutely sure I was near the end. Now, you could say that's a good side effect in regards to the 1CC, but it felt like really restrictive design. I feel like if you have unlockable continues, you should either make them time related or make them permanent unlocks that become costly as you go past the first few credits. Maybe people can unlock three credits fairly easily, but going beyond that might take some serious time. I think that as long as players have played long enough to get a "full" experience out of the game and learn the ins and outs of scoring and survival, then they should be rewarded for that. The problem is generally that people don't give these games a chance, and so the extra credits only need to be so restrictive that they make players actually sit down, play the game, and really figure out how it works. If they've discovered the full scope of the game and still want to credit-feed, then that's fine imo.

[Special World]

Wrote up a review for Chronoblast: http://catstronaut.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... ronoblast/

It's a solid Cave-style shooter, and at 80 MS points you'd be crazy to miss out.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

Agreed, nice article. Covers all the bases for introductions and for a relative newcomer such as myself, shines a light on a few games i've yet to play. Good job.

[louisg]

Also, in regards to a "Super Mario" of shooters, I think it would be fantastic if some developer would make a shooter with a world map like Mario World.

Along those lines, I'm not sure why background art reuse is frowned upon. Tyrian isn't a role model as far as game mechanics go, but I like that it feels consistent. Part of the consistency is returning to an environment you already blasted through but with a different level design. It doesn't quite have a real map, but I could definitely see how it could if they had mashed all 3 episodes into 1 branching episode that let you replay levels.

Yep, Tyrian with a better weapon balance and no inertia might have really been something. Definitely a missed opportunity there.

[Despatche]

i now consider unarguably picking ddp over doj a physical attack. ow. : (

i think continues should just be removed; platine dispositif does this! stage select should be fine for anybody. (perhaps with a segment system like ikaruga.)

i also think the concept of lives needs to be reworked somehow.

none of this means anything unless i can make games : ((((

[trap15]

i now consider unarguably picking ddp over doj a physical attack. ow. : (

Well, considering DDP is a better game... you're going to want to seek some domestic abuse help

[Skykid]

i now consider unarguably picking ddp over doj a physical attack. ow. : (

Well, considering DDP is a better game...

Keep dreaming.

[louisg]

i now consider unarguably picking ddp over doj a physical attack. ow. : (

Well, considering DDP is a better game...

Keep dreaming.

Picking DoDonPachi over DDP:DOJ has these things going for it:

- It's the originator. Sure, it's not technically the first game in the series, but it's the game that defined the manic shmup genre. Everything before this was a betweener. DOJ may be good, but it's not the absolute earth-shattering departure that DDP was.

- DDP is accessible to people who haven't played the previous game into the ground. DOJ is an extremely hard and unforgiving game, IMO. I'm sure it has more depth, but it's really one for the fans.

Of course, I voted up Mars Matrix over GigaWing, which is kind of a similar deal. It's pretty subjective.

[psoslayer]

yes I understand scrolling shooters

[Special World]

@ PAPER/ARTILLERY: Thanks for reading! Are there any particular shooters that got you into the genre?

@ louisg: I really wish I liked Tyrian. It seems to have a lot of cool stuff going on, but I just don't like the gameplay. There's really no thrill in it for me.

@ Despatche, trap15, Skykid, and louisg: They're obviously very similar games, but I'd say it's hard to choose one or the other as the better game in general. Like louisg said, Dodonpachi is more accessible while DOJ has deeper systems detail. I also think Dodonpachi feels slightly better on a basic level, with those great colors and satisfying shooting. DOJ is kinda moody, and doesn't translate the core thrill of shooting as well. This was more of a entry-level article, and I feel like Dodonpachi really is a better place to start on bullet hell. Plus, it's one of the few bullet hells I've played that's easier for both survival and scoring.

As for Mars Matrix versus Giga Wing, I think that's much more clear cut. Giga Wing might be easier and more accessible, but Mars Matrix really is better in just about every way. DDP and DOJ both have a give-and-take to certain mechanics that make them about equal, imo.

@ psoslayer: ya me too

[louisg]

@ louisg: I really wish I liked Tyrian. It seems to have a lot of cool stuff going on, but I just don't like the gameplay. There's really no thrill in it for me.

I'd say you're not missing a *lot* by not getting into it. It's essentially a computer game-style take on Turbografx-style shooters. The originals that it's taking inspiration from are a lot tighter in terms of both gameplay and level design. But, what Tyrian does add are elements for non-shooter fans who enjoy fiddling around in the shop and trying out different customizations, and the length of the game is pretty vast.

It is open source. It'd be neat to see a project that remedies a lot of its problems, because I think at the core is a pretty neat game. Tyrian can definitely be redeemed.

EDIT: Oh, as a bonus, a bunch of the songs are rip offs of tunes from Thunderforce and probably others. Really nice FM patch design though. Some of the best sounding patches on a commercial PC game-- it's right up there with Genesis stuff, which cannot be said for almost any DOS game.

[Squire Grooktook]

I also think Dodonpachi feels slightly better on a basic level, with those great colors and satisfying shooting. DOJ is kinda moody, and doesn't translate the core thrill of shooting as well.

Mmm, aesthetically I like both games. DDP has the colorfulness and the rock 'n roll soundtrack, while DOJ is somber but still gorgeous. DOJ is actually kind of like Demon's/Dark Souls to me, in that it hides it's beauty behind a veil of gloom. I can't really pick my favorite though, even if I could decide, nostalgia is clouding my vision here.

Gameplay wise, it's again hard to say because both games are absurdly tight. I actually kind of enjoyed playing DOJ more my first time picking it up, because it felt like it "got going" and got right into the thick of the action a lot faster. I think I might lean toward DOJ slightly, but both games are fantastic for me.

[Mortificator]

I never liked Dodonpachi, so it surprised me that DOJ turned out so amazing.

[trap15]

Picking DoDonPachi over DDP:DOJ has these things going for it:
- It's the originator. Sure, it's not technically the first game in the series, but it's the game that defined the manic shmup genre. Everything before this was a betweener. DOJ may be good, but it's not the absolute earth-shattering departure that DDP was.
- DDP is accessible to people who haven't played the previous game into the ground. DOJ is an extremely hard and unforgiving game, IMO. I'm sure it has more depth, but it's really one for the fans.

I don't disagree with those points, but they're not why I say what I do

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

@ PAPER/ARTILLERY: Thanks for reading! Are there any particular shooters that got you into the genre?

Well when I was younger I played Super Thunder Blade for the first time and that kind of kicked things off. From there I casually played many different shmups (Gynoug, R-Type, Parodius) but never really had much sense of what I was doing. As a teen i got into Rayforce, Ikaruga and Einhander and recently i've started playing more seriously. Mostly Dodonpachi.

[Special World]

I wonder what it is about Rayforce, Einhander, and Ikaruga that really gets newer players going. I think it's just that there's this idea layered over the shooting that's initially understandable and intriguing. Like "oh, it's a shooter... wait, what's this?" I think the same thing could probably be said for R-Type as well, and Gradius to a smaller extent, which is why those are considered the classicest of classic horis.

[Squire Grooktook]

I wonder what it is about Rayforce, Einhander, and Ikaruga that really gets newer players going. I think it's just that there's this idea layered over the shooting that's initially understandable and intriguing. Like "oh, it's a shooter... wait, what's this?" I think the same thing could probably be said for R-Type as well, and Gradius to a smaller extent, which is why those are considered the classicest of classic horis.

It also has to do with the quality, don't forget. Rayforce and Einhander, no matter how many shmups you've played, are always just mad fun to pick up and play, regardless of whether you're going for score or survival.

Another example is Gradius III Snes. A lot of people cite that as one of their first shmups, and it was the first shmup I was ever truly 'serious' about. I haven't played it in like 4-5 years, but a few days ago, I picked it up and played it for like 30 minutes on arcade difficulty, and it all came back to me why I was so dedicated because the game is just so much fun. There's just something about the levels, the bosses, the action, that's just so right and enjoyable. Same could be said about Rayforce. I went into that game expecting a watered down vert scrolling Darius, but I was hooked within minutes.

I think some of these games just really nailed it when it comes to the art of gameplay.

[Zaarock]

I wonder what it is about Rayforce, Einhander, and Ikaruga that really gets newer players going. I think it's just that there's this idea layered over the shooting that's initially understandable and intriguing. Like "oh, it's a shooter... wait, what's this?" I think the same thing could probably be said for R-Type as well, and Gradius to a smaller extent, which is why those are considered the classicest of classic horis.

All those games have excellent presentation too, as a result the simple interaction with the game could feel really visceral and rewarding to people who aren't into the genre's gameplay yet. "it's just a space shooter, ..oh this looks cool" indeed. Same with an easy to grasp "gimmick" I guess. Once they get into the game more more they'll start looking less at the presentation in the genre because they enjoy the mechanics by that point.

Probably just saying what you are in another way though, heh.

[Special World]

Yeah no doubt, all very fine games. It's easy to get pissy about Ikaruga since it gets so much acclaim, but very few people here would actually say it's bad. I actually haven't played Einhander, though :O

Also, I replayed Gradius III SNES a while back and really did not enjoy it. But I've been playing Gradius Collection lately and enjoying all the games, despite some quirks. I was just in a mood that time, I think. I've no doubt that it's actually the better version of Gradius III, and one of the stronger Gradius titles. They're all pretty solid though.

I think lately I've just been fluctuating towards more classic design. There was a period where I didn't want any game without designer scoring systems, but right now I'm at a place where I'm enjoying these games for what they're worth. I don't think they have the same long-term appeal to me as certain other shooters do, but they are a definite blast to try and 1CC, and it's clear why they're classics.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

In all honesty I think for me it was just availability. Those were the games that got released here in the UK in good amounts (barring Einhander). Basically I would play any shmups I could find in my local game store. I didn't really have the cash for imports.

[RyIII]

I wonder what it is about Rayforce, Einhander, and Ikaruga that really gets newer players going. I think it's just that there's this idea layered over the shooting that's initially understandable and intriguing. Like "oh, it's a shooter... wait, what's this?" I think the same thing could probably be said for R-Type as well, and Gradius to a smaller extent, which is why those are considered the classicest of classic horis.

If I may necro, another thing is that Rayforce/storm, Einhander, and Ikaruga were mechanically distinct from other shmups in ways that were immediately recognizable even on a cursory examination. Einhander had the additional advantages of its particular presentation and being released by a popular developer which was in a phase where it seemed that they Could Do No Wrong- Squaresoft was a critical juggernaut from about 1993-1999/2000, so plenty of people were lining up to give the game a go. Ikaruga itself was preceded by a wave of good notice even while it as still an import title, through vectors such as Penny Arcade and others.

As for R-Type and Gradius, while the games were challenging, there wasn't nearly as much as a visual intimidation factor in older shooters as there is in many of the newer offerings, so far more people were willing to take a chance with their monies on the older games and try to appreciate what they offered. This intimidation factor is easily what cuts most potential players out of the loop (there was a few years' time where this was basically the face of the modern vertical shmup), so what we might classify as "easy vs. challenging" due to our investment in the genre will very well only be the difference between "not completely and utterly bonkers vs. Very completely utterly bonkers" to the outsider.

[Special World]

Wrote up a review of Dodonpachi Saidaioujou on my blog. Didn't want to get bogged down in technical details, so I stayed away from detailed descriptions of the other modes.

http://catstronaut.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... idaioujou/

Easily better than Daifukkatsu, but probably not quite as solid as Daioujou. A fantastic game taken on its own merits, though, and Cave's purest shooter in a long time.

[n0rtygames]

Your reviews are great. Keep 'em coming!

[Special World]

Thanks N0rty ;D

Skyravens is looking great! Popped into the dev forum to see how it was coming along, was really surprised by its look. Art design is looking fantastic (Darius meets Zoids?), and I'm happy to see you're making a hori. Really intimidated by those bullet patterns in a horizontal game, though. Go easy on us, for once :p

[n0rtygames]

Thanks N0rty ;D

Skyravens is looking great! Popped into the dev forum to see how it was coming along, was really surprised by its look. Art design is looking fantastic (Darius meets Zoids?), and I'm happy to see you're making a hori. Really intimidated by those bullet patterns in a horizontal game, though. Go easy on us, for once :p

Don't worry, what you see there is at maximum rank! I've learned my lesson there!

[Special World]

First part of my list of the top fifteen games of this generation. There are shooters on the list, obviously Let me know what you guys think. I'd be interested in hearing what you guys have been playing when you're not scrolling and shooting.

http://catstronaut.wordpress.com/2013/1 ... on-part-1/

Part 2, with an honest-to-god scrolling shooter:

http://catstronaut.wordpress.com/2013/1 ... on-part-2/

Part 3, featuring my favorite scrolling shooter (and maybe game period) of all time:

http://catstronaut.wordpress.com/2013/1 ... on-part-3/

[Sinful]

Hey, this looks like a fun read! (But gonna do it latter, as I wasted enough time reading on this forum, now to play some STGs)

Just glancing over at your suggestions, how about the new version Viper Phase? That's an easy and fun game for beginners, no? I mean, I sure am a beginner and I think that game is not scary but not boring and lots of fun. Same goes for the Raiden Fighters series, but not as easy as Viper Phase.

Yeah, depite Battle Garegga being hard as nails, it's very apealing to me as a newbie to shmups. ... OH WAIT!!! Tera Driver!! Add that! Even more apealing to a newbie like myself with still shite & un-refined skills. Yesh, these two are top contender from Raizing (one of my fave companies).

Other then that... I want to say a Gradius game, but until you get into the genre and even this series, it'll scare new folks away I assume? Cause even the easiest in the series (part II NES/III SNES) scare lots away big time! ... You know, on the other hand, for some readon the R-Type series has this strong appeal to new guys & just anyone in general (hence it's sucesss & worldwide appeal), but man, they require heavy restarting!! And I don't want to suggest Dimension with no restats. That's just not R-Type.


EIDT - nvm. Just read the whole thing; Scoring?! Already?! Hell no! I'm still learning to survive! I out of here. And good luck with getting beginers in on scoring AND starting to play shmups at the same time. Bye!

(mod edit - merged into the thread this was apparently intended for)

[Special World]

bump for shooters and understanding