Takahashi Meijin interview translated by blackoak

[Ed Oscuro]

But surely some of the mobile phone releases aren't just rehashes, like the early Gradius phone releases. I'm sure there's more like this out there.

[Skykid]

But surely some of the mobile phone releases aren't just rehashes, like the early Gradius phone releases. I'm sure there's more like this out there.

Space Invaders Extreme, Infinity Gene, Dariusburst, Raiden IV, etc etc.

I wouldn't consider any of them having substantial territory in the current shmup market. Most, like Konami's (and Dariusburst) are one-offs, and few and far between. In terms of leading the current shmup market, it's mainly been Cave since Donpachi, Touhou in their stead, and a few projects clinging onto the side of the ship here and there.

I'm still unsure exactly where the argument in this discussion lies, unless you definitely think Cave alienated what was a burgeoning shmup field on the cusp of exploding with a tumult of new memorisers, Raiden clones and R-Type tributes (as Meijin infers.)

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, apples and oranges. I think the shmup market, by volume, probably is composed mainly of those pesky rehashes, but also a fair deal by indie / small developers.

I'm not sure any of the games listed there meet expectations for a "pick up and play" type game.

I think that the success of certain types of games on current phones shows a gap between expectations and the play style of many mobile shooting games, at least to hit mass-market potential. It's quite surprising that Angry Birds-style short stage segments haven't become ubiquitous in the genre, too.

I'm still unsure exactly where the argument in this discussion lies, unless you definitely think Cave alienated what was a burgeoning shmup field on the cusp of exploding with a tumult of new memorisers, Raiden clones and R-Type tributes (as Meijin infers.)

The only inference I see here is you drawing something out of Tahahashi's simple statement about the two types of mechanics in games, shooting and dodging. He emphasizes shooting (and moving about the screen and targeting accurately, and we could certainly infer knowing when to shoot and when to wait, if there is a on-screen shot limit), instead of dodging bullets. And personally I agree with him on this, though it's obviously just a personal preference (and I do like many games that focus more on the dodging aspect). It's not clear where memorizers should come into this, or even Toaplan clones for that matter.

I don't know if it makes an opportunity for a great explosion in the popularity of shooting games, but I don't know of any that combine convenience (play one short stage at a time, as a minimum) with other kinds of mechanics, including Hudson-style mechanics. Leaderboards are a nice tactic but those alone won't carry people into being interested in the genre (after all, Angry Birds has shot to eminence with only personal records tracking, and it offers little over previous games other than a polished presentation and a slightly more intuitive control scheme than its inspirations).

[Frenetic]

i'm all for free speech, but why don't you guys just take it to PMs. my spidey sense is tingling like how this is going down like the Sony thread.

[Paradigm]

Yeah. No discussions allowed on the forum.

[Skykid]

i'm all for free speech, but why don't you guys just take it to PMs. my spidey sense is tingling like how this is going down like the Sony thread.

WTF, we were just having a reasonable discussion?!

Your Spidey sense needs a tune-up.

[Kaiser]

I don't know if it makes an opportunity for a great explosion in the popularity of shooting games, but I don't know of any that combine convenience (play one short stage at a time, as a minimum) with other kinds of mechanics, including Hudson-style mechanics. Leaderboards are a nice tactic but those alone won't carry people into being interested in the genre (after all, Angry Birds has shot to eminence with only personal records tracking, and it offers little over previous games other than a polished presentation and a slightly more intuitive control scheme than its inspirations).

I don't know, players of today probably would expect HOURS of real content from the game instead of scoring perfection stuff like branched paths but what kind of a shmup dev would insert in branched paths today. But then again today's gamers are a bunch of spoiled brats who complain that the game is crap and bought it for $60 without doing research. Screw all the kids today yo.

[Ed Oscuro]

People spend lots of time on Angry Birds stages. We are clearly talking about two different things here, and our concept of a STG is getting in the way of making it work on (for example) a mobile phone.

One thing that would happen is that the usual level of polish (especially detailed backgrounds) would get sacrificed right away, almost certainly. But this isn't the core gameplay.

Angry Birds stages are often (ridiculously) optimized for one specific path of play; with a short-stage shooting game you could probably have more freedom while giving more reason to replay a specific stage, even with a simple scoring scheme. My main concern would be that developers would be tempted to go the "you must do things exactly this way" route instead of giving multiple interesting options. Angry Birds' whole selling point, and what pulls people towards it or drives them away, is baked into the basic mechanic, and after you let go then you just sit and watch. Naturally shooters are different than this, although there is room for people to make "almost" shooting games (apparently people like Steambirds 2), but if you can sell the short stages as being fun yet challenging with at least a reasonably open-ended top score achievable, I don't see why it shouldn't work.

[ciox]

I don't know if it makes an opportunity for a great explosion in the popularity of shooting games, but I don't know of any that combine convenience (play one short stage at a time, as a minimum) with other kinds of mechanics, including Hudson-style mechanics. Leaderboards are a nice tactic but those alone won't carry people into being interested in the genre (after all, Angry Birds has shot to eminence with only personal records tracking, and it offers little over previous games other than a polished presentation and a slightly more intuitive control scheme than its inspirations).

I don't know, players of today probably would expect HOURS of real content from the game instead of scoring perfection stuff like branched paths but what kind of a shmup dev would insert in branched paths today. But then again today's gamers are a bunch of spoiled brats who complain that the game is crap and bought it for $60 without doing research. Screw all the kids today yo.

What you're saying about branched paths is interesting, I guess the Darius series still carries the torch because it's a big part of the series' identity, but other than that nothing.
I think it would be no big deal to add 'easy' paths to a game that's already balanced for skilled play, if they change the stage visuals a lot it should help add mainstream appeal.
But like you say, nobody thinks of it anymore, just the bare minimum.