Alternative set-up to Sony HD BVM's - to handle 240p -> 480p

[fagin]

In readiness for an up and coming video I'll be uploading to YT, based on my TOP 10 video processors, I thought I would go back to where I started..... and that's back to video processors, but with a twist.

Having been sucked back in (thanks Fudoh!!!) to CRT shizzle (again) and reaching near that peak of excellence with a BVM, I started to think about all of this again. Namely looking at a solution that gives me that CRT "look" but a solution capable of all manner of resolutions. I recently tried to bag a HD BVM but my pocket did not open enough for that emotional experience. I'd already made a bid on (yes another) PC CRT as I wanted to do some playing "outside of the box" to meet my (now heightened quality wants) requirements.

I picked up a 19" IIYAMA (Vision Master) tonight and in true "I'll probably end up eating my own words", pulled out the old faithful..... the XRGB-3.

It's perhaps easy to forget that the XRGB range of processors were really brought out initally for connection to these types of CRT's. Suffice to say set-up correctly with scanlines enabled...... it looks bloody awesome. It's as close as you'd probably get (as a solution) to the quality of a BVM and of course the screen will handle 480p (which was one of my thoughts about getting a HD BVM - all in one solution) as well as everything else being linedoubled and scanlined.

Perhaps I'm getting carried away and obviously you need a good linedoubler to make this solution work..... but the fact that it meets a number of requirements, it's certainly another solution. Maybe I have really missed "the point".

Obviously staking into account the linedoubler, it's sort of cheating to a degree...... but if it produces the goods and quality, who cares?

Discuss and please feel free to rip me a new backside.

[Fudoh]

My 1st setup after moving away from a 15khz-only Sony TV set, was a 29" VGA CRT along with a XRGB-2 -- 2002 I think.

The main problem is the quality of the CRTs. The bigger you go (without going "pro") the more issues with convergence and geometry you run into. When I bought my 1st flatscreen in 2004 I was stunned by the perfection (in terms of the named problem areas).

If you have a medium sized low lag LCD like the 24" or 27" Dell S series and pair it with a XRGB-Mini, you get the superior solution *in my opinion*. The picture can be tweaked to look very much like a BVM setup. Of course you end up with an extra lag of about 1 to 1.5 frames compared to the CRT+XRGB-3 solution, but everybody has to decide for himself if that's bothering enough or not...

Looking very much forward to your VP-lineup. Anything among them I didn't have yet ? You'll definitely completely fall in love with the Mini, but you need something for *fucking great* 480p upscaling as well

[Fudoh]

Oh, and 480i handling is VERY problematic on such a setup. Totally depends on the quality of the processor and will still never resemble a genuine 480i picture on a 15khz tube.

[fagin]

TBH this IILYAMA is not all that bad. Being a 19" screen the geometry is spot on and the convergence is *nearly* perfect. The great thing about these types of CRT's (as with the BVM's) is that all geometry stuff is so easy to access.... of course most OSD PC CRT's store settings based on resolution changes as well. That's an added bonus. Above everything it cost me £11.50.

The reason for my experiments this time round is purely trying to find an all in one solution. A multisync (CGA, EGA & VGA) CRT would be preferable...... the ultimate would be a CGA, EGA, VGA and HD capable device. Now we're getting greedy and stupid. You get where I'm coming from though.

One of the problems with LCD's is that the image looks "flat" (no pun intended). A CRT pops, is warm, it glows.... it looks totally different in many ways. A LCD appears to be the total opposite for retro gaming.

How about the XRGB-Mini to a PC CRT!? HDMI transcoding back to VGA is not an issue for me - just thinking about covering all basis with one processor.

[fagin]

Looking very much forward to your VP-lineup. Anything among them I didn't have yet ? You'll definitely completely fall in love with the Mini, but you need something for *fucking great* 480p upscaling as well

I nearly missed this...

Nothing you haven't already reviewed.

In fact I'm not actually sure I have 10 devices (I'm going to have to cheat a bit to make 10 "devices"):
XRGB-2+
XRGB-3
XRGB-Mini
DVDO Edge
HD3000
SLG-in-a-box
GBS8200
Some cheapo scaler
CPO
POP II

I think I'll also throw in:
Super Emotia
Extron RGB
SLG3000
Sync Strikle
UMSA
HD Fury
SCART to Component Transcoder
HDMI to VGA Transcoder

[Fudoh]

you've become a collector

How about the XRGB-Mini to a PC CRT!?

fine. 480p is a bit blurry and 720p is 16:9, so you would have to set the games to widescreen, but adjust the CRT to display a 4:3 image. The other (4:3) resolution won't work properly with scanlines.

With the XRGB-Mini and the HD3000 you've got a pretty perfect setup for all input signals

[ryu]

Namely looking at a solution that gives me that CRT "look" but a solution capable of all manner of resolutions

get a 37" nec multisync. that'll let you play anything on it and you'll have a decent screen size for widescreen games too

[Fudoh]

get a 37" nec multisync

easier said than done!

[fagin]

Fudoh,
Convenience aside are you of the opinion that a LCD with the appropriate scalers / processors give a better picture than a CRT? I'm not sure I can get my head around that one at the moment.

[Fudoh]

yes, mostly at least.

What is it that makes you believe a CRT looks better ? I mean, you got a BVM and from a normal viewing distance you can't make out the pixel structure or the aperture grill. A current LCD also got better contrast numbers and better blacks.

That's for 240p material. For 480p I prefer a LCD anytime over a CRT.

We bought a 24" Dell for a friend of mine recently and I had it sitting on top of the BVM. 240p signal going into the BVM, and using the loop-through outputs into a Mini and on to the Dell. In direct comparison both setups were brilliant. I meant to post pictures of the setup, but the pics are on my buddy's cam (but I'll get them eventually).

[fagin]

Interesting comparison using the loop-through. I'm speaking blindly here as I haven't tried the mini yet..... perhaps I'll "get it" when I do. As said before, a LCD just looks flat compared to a CRT imo.

[Fudoh]

The Mini in 720p is very close to the XRGB-3 in B1 paired with another upscaler.

Maybe a settings thing. If you would drive a CRT with high white levels, you get a bit of blooming. That's usually the only thing a LCD can't reproduce, but with moderate white levels, I have a hard time seeing any important difference.

[gamefan71]

A current LCD also got better contrast numbers and better blacks.

That's for 240p material. For 480p I prefer a LCD anytime over a CRT.

Fudoh - I have heard you state this in other threads and have been meaning to ask you about it. Under the right lighting conditions, you think that LCD have better/more accurate blacks than a CRT?

Also, could you give a few examples of LCD that look better than the Sony BVM line of monitors?

[cools]

I get what fagin's on about, I've not yet seen an LCD I liked for 15/31k source material (games).

I've been studying my cab CRTs closely and the number of flaws in the image compared to a transistor display is phenomenal - even with convergence perfect the scanlines don't line up with the shadow mask, the pixels don't line up with the mask either, they're all slightly blurry, there's subtle moire over the whole display, the warping from the screen curvature is obvious and there's occasional sub-millimetre movement in different parts of the screen.

But the games look fantastic. Putting them through this analogue filter does wonders to the image.

Quoting Fudoh regarding the BVM:

The BVM's 240p picture is much closer to a digital LCD display with emulated scanlines than it is to classic CRT.

I agree. Scanlines on a classic CRT are far less pronounced, only becoming plainly visible when you go above 25/26". On smaller displays the mask itself is more of an effect than the scanlines, and I maintain that we don't yet have high enough resolution LCDs to simulate a CRT display accurately - scanline emulation gets all the attention because it's the only part of the filter we can get half right

[kamiboy]

After my infatuation with the novelty of viewing HD grade material on flatscreens wore off CRT's quickly clawed their way back into my heart.

Having tried many of the solutions mentioned I have come to the final conclusion of the right tool for the right job. The right tool for sub HD material is a CRT, especially so for 240p and 480i videogame material. Same as LCD being the right tool for for HD video material.

As to why CRT is, to my eyes, unbeatable no matter how you choose to connect your vintage source to an LCD, well, I cannot formulate it into words. It just looks better, more natural, more pleasing, more authentic, more everything.

This is especially true for games using pixel art for their graphic. On a CRT low resolution pixel art just has a rounded, natural look to it, like there are no individual pixel units, but just an organic flow of colours across the screen. Do not confuse the effect with blur which is what most emulators resort to when trying to recreate the effect. No this organic flow is present at the same time as the overall screen seeming very sharp via RGB on a PVM.

On LCD's on the other hand every pixel is represented in a jarringly pronounced jagged detail. All CRT filtering techniques do is make the overall image seem more blurry.

I actually did the loop through trick myself and it only reaffirmed my sentiments. Playing older games without a CRT kills half the joy. The joy of the graphics.

[ryu]

easier said than done!

just kidding... well, partly.

As to why CRT is, to my eyes, unbeatable no matter how you choose to connect your vintage source to an LCD, well, I cannot formulate it into words. It just looks better, more natural, more pleasing, more authentic, more everything.

have you ever considered that your crts might just be calibrated more to your liking? unless you're calibrating all of your monitors yourself

[kamiboy]

If by calibration you mean playing around with colour, brightness and contrast then yeah I do that myself. Of course neither of those effect the aesthetics outside of the colours on screen. The sharp yet organic CRT look goes beyond that.

Besides I've had 4 CRT's of different make and they all put my various LCD's to shame when it came to vintage sources.

[ryu]

If by calibration you mean playing around with colour, brightness and contrast then yeah I do that myself. Of course neither of those effect the aesthetics outside of the colours on screen. The sharp yet organic CRT look goes beyond that.

Besides I've had 4 CRT's of different make and they all put my various LCD's to shame when it came to vintage sources.

there's also gamma to consider which is pretty important for contrast. if that's set too low you'll end up with a really flat picture.

[fagin]

When is too much, simply too much!?

Just picked up another homesumer Sony TV (later FST ones) just....... this is getting crazy now. That's 11 CRT's either within the house or in storagfe.

[gamefan71]

When is too much, simply too much!?

Just picked up another homesumer Sony TV (later FST ones) just....... this is getting crazy now. That's 11 CRT's either within the house or in storagfe.

I almost picked a brand new PVM-2950Q this past weekend but decided enough is enough....now off to look at the Sony 32" BVM....

[kamiboy]

I'd say If I had two more or less mint 20" HD BVM's, one for active use, and one as a backup then that would be enough.

I have two now, but if ever I get my hand on another unit then one of the two is going to be put up for sale. Then again 14" models are so tiny and easy to put in storage and a second backup would not hurt.

We'll see. I am prolly going to get a 20" L5 or BVM this year if one with low hours and a good price decides to show up.

[gamefan71]

I'd say If I had two more or less mint 20" HD BVM's, one for active use, and one as a backup then that would be enough.

I have two now, but if ever I get my hand on another unit then one of the two is going to be put up for sale. Then again 14" models are so tiny and easy to put in storage and a second backup would not hurt.

We'll see. I am prolly going to get a 20" L5 or BVM this year if one with low hours and a good price decides to show up.

The next CRT I purchase will be the 32" BVM. I already own the 20" and 14" L5, 2 20" BVMs, 2 29" PGMs, a Wells Gardner D9800 and a 29" NEC Multisync! oh and a Sony 34XBR960 CRT TV. Wow, written out like that, I might have a problem...

[cools]

When is too much, simply too much!?

Just picked up another homesumer Sony TV (later FST ones) just....... this is getting crazy now. That's 11 CRT's either within the house or in storagfe.

This is one reason I'm glad I don't have a car, my options for gathering CRTs are somewhat limited

That said, I've got 5 in cabs, plus a couple of spares for some of these. 9 in the house

[kamiboy]

The next CRT I purchase will be the 32" BVM. I already own the 20" and 14" L5, 2 20" BVMs, 2 29" PGMs, a Wells Gardner D9800 and a 29" NEC Multisync! oh and a Sony 34XBR960 CRT TV. Wow, written out like that, I might have a problem...

If I were you I'd get rid of the 14", the XBR and the PGMs.

Definitely keep the 20" BVM for the raw quality and NEC Multisync because it accepts everything you throw at it, and at 29" it is big enough for distant viewing.

Wouldn't get a 32" BVM unless I was planning on getting rid of the 20" either. Maybe keep the L5 in storage as a backup unit.

If I didn't have a cross continent move coming up I would prolly look into a similar giant sized BVM myself. I currently have plenty of room for one and it is winning combination of all categories. Image quality, signal flexibility and size.

[fagin]

When is too much, simply too much!?

Just picked up another homesumer Sony TV (later FST ones) just....... this is getting crazy now. That's 11 CRT's either within the house or in storagfe.

This is one reason I'm glad I don't have a car, my options for gathering CRTs are somewhat limited

That said, I've got 5 in cabs, plus a couple of spares for some of these. 9 in the house

Well..... if you have 9 so far it's probably a good thing you don't have a car!!!!!!!

Just picked up a Sony KV-21CL10U today. Cracking bloody picture.

[mesmer]

fagin, man, Just be patient and get your cash ready. A 20 inch multisync will be yours.

I did seriously consider going with a normal PC CRT for my only display. I imagine 240p, perfectly linedoubled and SLG'd would look quite good on a CRT scanning at 480p. Some side-by-side pics with a native low res monitor would be great. As Fudoh mentioned, true 480i material would be a problem.

[futurematt5]

Looking very much forward to your VP-lineup. Anything among them I didn't have yet ? You'll definitely completely fall in love with the Mini, but you need something for *fucking great* 480p upscaling as well

I nearly missed this...

Nothing you haven't already reviewed.

In fact I'm not actually sure I have 10 devices (I'm going to have to cheat a bit to make 10 "devices"):
XRGB-2+
XRGB-3
XRGB-Mini
DVDO Edge
HD3000
SLG-in-a-box
GBS8200
Some cheapo scaler
CPO
POP II

I think I'll also throw in:
Super Emotia
Extron RGB
SLG3000
Sync Strikle
UMSA
HD Fury
SCART to Component Transcoder
HDMI to VGA Transcoder

That's 18...you now need another TWO to make a proper top of the pops!

[fagin]

Matt - Now type what you ACTUALLY said in your txt to me!

Nowz then nowz then!!!

[futurematt5]

RIGHT PEOPLE!!

We need to get fagin up to 20 signal processors so he can don his Jimmy Saville wig and freak it like it's top of the pops in 1979. Keep your hands where we can see them lad!!